44-40 for the SAA Revolver

[Savvy Jack]

Uberti Cattleman 5.5" barrel


Hey guys

I have been messing around trying to get a safe recipe for the 44-40 loaded with Speer 200 gr JHP for self defence.

Has anyone loaded up any with Pyrodex-P? What I don't know, which is what I want to know....ya know? Oh, what I want to know is the CUP or PSI. All I have is Lymans manual that shows 12,600 for Speer 200 gr JHP to be used with Unique, the powder I have on hand. I want to get some 2400 which Lyman shows to produce 939 ft/s @ 12,300 PSI.

I loaded up some Pyrodex-P with 38 grains and got three group shot avg of 925ft/s. That is only 380 ft/lbs. I am looking for a min of 400 ft/lbs and around max PSI/CUP.

[Wayne Smith]

I'm loading 38gr Goex FFFG over the 200 MAV big lube boolit. Pyrodex I don't know but if you can't get BP try 777.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
This revover... is this an origonal Colt BP or a new clone ?
Mike in Peru

Well there it was at the very top... Cattleman..

[Savvy Jack]

Here is what I have so far.
http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/96/l_1db5af5526ca45d78fa987979875f47c.jpg

[9.3X62AL]

The hyphenated Winchester pistol/revolver rounds (32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 WCF) all seemed to produce about 1200 FPS in rifles or carbines and 900-950 FPS in revolvers in their 19th Century blackpowder versions. In modern parlance, the 40 S&W is well-regarded as a defensive caliber, and the 38-40's ballistics in a revolver is a close match to that performance. The 44-40 is about a 10% boost to those results on account of its heavier boolit.

I wouldn't get all wrapped around the axle of calculated energy figures. All of these formulae rely upon some element of the terminal ballistic equation being squared (velocity, bullet weight, or diameter) to obtain a result, and only the Hatcher Theory squares the factor (bullet diameter) that is actually squared in real life. Run your figures on the Hatcher Scale (AKA Index of Relative Stopping Power) and I think you'll conclude that the 44-40 is very capable defensive caliber with your present loads on board.

[Savvy Jack]

The hyphenated Winchester pistol/revolver rounds (32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 WCF) all seemed to produce about 1200 FPS in rifles or carbines and 900-950 FPS in revolvers in their 19th Century blackpowder versions. In modern parlance, the 40 S&W is well-regarded as a defensive caliber, and the 38-40's ballistics in a revolver is a close match to that performance. The 44-40 is about a 10% boost to those results on account of its heavier boolit.

I wouldn't get all wrapped around the axle of calculated energy figures. All of these formulae rely upon some element of the terminal ballistic equation being squared (velocity, bullet weight, or diameter) to obtain a result, and only the Hatcher Theory squares the factor (bullet diameter) that is actually squared in real life. Run your figures on the Hatcher Scale (AKA Index of Relative Stopping Power) and I think you'll conclude that the 44-40 is very capable defensive caliber with your present loads on board.

lol, thanks! I need to go digest that info. I'm still learning!

[Savvy Jack]

Ok,I found a link with that info. What I don't yet have is the formula. I can't grasp it yet from that page.
http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/hatcher-table.htm

[KCSO]

I don't think you will gain anything with the JHP bullet in the 44-40. In a SAA or copy you want to stay close to the b/p velocities of 900+ and at that velocity a good f/p bullet is going to do just as much damage. A case full of pyrodex pistol powder is safe and will be right at the 900 mark with a LEAD bulllet. I do not put J word bullets into revolvers anymore so I can't be much more help.

[Savvy Jack]

I don't think you will gain anything with the JHP bullet in the 44-40. In a SAA or copy you want to stay close to the b/p velocities of 900+ and at that velocity a good f/p bullet is going to do just as much damage. A case full of pyrodex pistol powder is safe and will be right at the 900 mark with a LEAD bulllet. I do not put J word bullets into revolvers anymore so I can't be much more help.

lol, I was hoping someone would post this a week ago but on another forum!!!

So far Pyrodex-P works the best with 200 Mav Big Lube LRFP bellets @ 965 ft/s. I'd like to try some Goex though!

[Four Fingers of Death]

Get some Winchester cowboy loads in the brown box. Nice soft lead bullet, shoots reallllllll good in my Piettas and 1866 Uberti and you don't got no smart a$$ lawyer saying you were making special 'killer' bullets.

Enough power to do the job well.

Yer won't set the curtains on fire or have to clean the walls off as you would have to do with black. Although the acrid thick smoke would confuse a felon some, as would your house burning down I suppose.

[Dan Cash]

Savyjack, I don't have a 44-40 but can assure you that a .44 Special with the same profile 200 grain bullet at 950 will smack deer and coyotes to the ground with authority. I gave up on the paper data some years ago when I discovered what heavy bullets to to a flesh and blood target.

[McLintock]

If you want some real lead bullet "thumpers", try the Lyman 240 gr 429667 over a case full of black powder. Then for little less thump and a little more speed you can use the Lyman 427666, the 200 gr little brother to the 667.
Here's my 3 screw Rugers with that combo in it:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/7384995/357812296.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/7384995/357812359.jpg
Old Model .357 sized gun converted to .44 Special and now with extra 44-40 cylinder, one of a pair:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/7384995/357812246.jpg
and a .44 Flattop with extra 44-40 cylinder:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/7384995/356603834.jpg
I'll probably use the 240 gr'er in the Flattop normally and the 200 gr'er in the smaller framed guns, for Cowboy Action Shooting mostly. I have the 200 gr Mav Dutchman bullet but found it harder to load in the 44-40, so use it mostly the 44 Special for both rifle and revolver and pistol for the 44-40; don't have a 44-40 rifle.
McLintock

[Savvy Jack]

Get some Winchester cowboy loads in the brown box. Nice soft lead bullet, shoots reallllllll good in my Piettas and 1866 Uberti and you don't got no smart a$$ lawyer saying you were making special 'killer' bullets.

Enough power to do the job well.

Yer won't set the curtains on fire or have to clean the walls off as you would have to do with black. Although the acrid thick smoke would confuse a felon some, as would your house burning down I suppose.

Inside my home I use my wife's 9mm. Outside the home she wont let me use her guns. Whats wrong with this picture?

[targetshootr]

Old Model .357 sized gun converted to .44 Specialhttp://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/7384995/357812246.jpg

Could you post more pics of that one? Been thinking about the same conversion, a 44spl SAA Ruger.

[McLintock]

Here's are pic of the set, they have Douglas barrels, Old Army steel grip frames, steel ejector rod housings and shoot way better then I can, particularly with a case full of KIK 2F black powder. Wes Flowers of fast draw and Cowboy Action gunsmithing fame did these, but a number of custom 'smiths do it also; Wes doesn't do the Colt topstrap conversion anymore. The 44-40 cylinders were chambered by Bob James, a noted Colt gunsmith, but he does Rugers also as they are very popular in Cowboy Action and fast draw. Bob doesn't do the Colt topstrap conversion either, but Alan Harton, Clements and several others do.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/7384995/320941600.jpg
The long barreled one in front is also a .44 Special conversion, but I did it myself using a Super Blackhawk barrel and the Dave Manson chambering setup that I mentioned in the thread on line boring.
McLintock

[targetshootr]

Very nice guns. One looks like it has a dovetailed front blade. If I had the means to do things likethat I could save myself a fortune. Wonder why they stopped doing top straps? My guess is the liability that comes with thinning it. I plan to do one using a 30 carbine cylinder (to take up more of the frame window) with a rounded TLA-style top strap.

[Lloyd Smale]

my go to load for 4440s for years has been a 200 rf with 9.5 grains of herco.

[Bret4207]

The hyphenated Winchester pistol/revolver rounds (32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 WCF) all seemed to produce about 1200 FPS in rifles or carbines and 900-950 FPS in revolvers in their 19th Century blackpowder versions. In modern parlance, the 40 S&W is well-regarded as a defensive caliber, and the 38-40's ballistics in a revolver is a close match to that performance. The 44-40 is about a 10% boost to those results on account of its heavier boolit.

I wouldn't get all wrapped around the axle of calculated energy figures. All of these formulae rely upon some element of the terminal ballistic equation being squared (velocity, bullet weight, or diameter) to obtain a result, and only the Hatcher Theory squares the factor (bullet diameter) that is actually squared in real life. Run your figures on the Hatcher Scale (AKA Index of Relative Stopping Power) and I think you'll conclude that the 44-40 is very capable defensive caliber with your present loads on board.

As I've said before, I think like Al talks, but by the time it gets to my mouff it comes out in neanderthal....:redneck:

[9.3X62AL]

Bret, you say "Neanderthal" like it's a bad thing. Not at all.

I've pondered acquisition of a SBH and a spare 44 Mag cylinder to have re-cut to 44-40 WCF, but haven't got a roundtuit. Having a whole lot of 41, 44, and 45 caliber rollerpistols already on hand and both 40 Short & Weak and 10mm bottomfeeders right next to them might have something to do with that.

[smkummer]

Look at the Unique loads listed in the older manual and work up carefully. I believe they were hitting 1100 FPS with the Lyman 427098 bullet. These loads are over current SAMMI specs but Lyman used a Colt SAA in development. The current specs. were developed in case someone shoots them out of a blackpowder gun. Your gun is modern. Just my .02.

For example, I have been using Elmer Kieth's recommendation of 7.5 grains Unique in my 3rd Gen Colt SAA over his 245 grain SWC. This over current specs. but its so ever a nice, accurate, comfortable and powerful shooting load out of the modern Colt and it has shot thousands of rounds of this ammo and still tight.

[GUSTAVOAR]

Helo:
My top load in my Uberti 5,5" (1873) was H 2400: 17 Gr, Fed PL and 200 Gr Lead, velocity was arround 1050 FPS. I also used the same charge with jacket bullets (200 Gr). My other standard load is UNIQUE 9 Gr, Fed LP and 200 Gr Lead.