What ammo does the MAS 35 use?

[Four Fingers of Death]

While I was in the store buying my Moison Nagant the other day I also saw a MAS35 I think it was. I have never paid much attention to these, but it was so ugly, it was sorta charming. I like the reversible spike bayonet, very nasty looking.

There was also a forward facing hook at the front of the stock. Is this a piling hook or a hook for a bipod or something?

[wills]

36 Perhaps?
http://surplusrifle.com/mas36/index.asp

[versifier]

COTW says 7.5x54mm MAS cartridge. .308 diam bullet, but the case head is .480 and rim is .482. Smaller than Swiss, bigger than Mauser. Typical pain in the ass, gotta be different, obstinate French engineering. At least it shoots a normal sized bullet. I think the hook is for stacking, but that's only a guess.

[StarMetal]

You can make ammo for that French rifle by using 6.5 Swede brass, works great.

Joe

[crazy mark]

You can make cartridges from 6.5 swede brass. They are usually nice rifles as most were refurbished. The 7.5 round is in the same pressure range as the 30/40 krag and 7.65 Argie. The hook is for stacking. A lot of them were converted to 7.62 Nato here in the states. They also had safeties added as the company that did the chambering thought it was a good idea to add a safety. The hidden bayonet is a nice feature also. Mark

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/4CE0AE555332580/standard.jpg

My MAS has been MESSED with :-)

Frank DeHaas thought they were fine rifles, and I supposed they were/are. Very simple and very robust construction. The bolt is .800" in diameter, and has 2 substantial unsplit lugs. The bolt only has 5 parts: Bolt body, bolt cap, spring, firing pin and extractor. The trigger is similar to the Mauser but set up a bit different.

Problem: They have a 12.5" pull. If you're not carefull your thumb knuckle can make painfull aquaintance with your nose. NO stock crawling.

After my conversion was done and I had worked my way up from 300gr slugs through the intermediates to the 500 grainers, I quit 200 fps shy of published 458 Win Mag ballistics. I was tired of my thumb knuckle bashing my nose [smilie=p: and having the left side of the rifle covered in slobber.

..................Buckshot

[Four Fingers of Death]

I might be better off just rechambering to 7.62/308. This wuld save me buying another set of dies, odd brass, etc. I have a squillion 7.62 ex mil ammo and three gazillion brass cases and a few sets of dies in 7.62/308.

The old expression for stacking rifles is piling I was told many moons ago.

When I was down at the shop where this was for sale at 250AUD I offered $150 and the owner of the shop who I know well tells me the guy is unlikely to reduce the price. You don't see many of these in Australia. I am becoming so interested in this ugly duckling I may have to spring the extra bucks for it. I will find out in a week or so, the owner comes into the shop every week or so. I need this rifle like a hole in the head, believe me.

[Linstrum]

Hey, there, FFM, how ya doin'?

I have two of them, in 1999 I got both brand new still wrapped in the cheese cloth and Cosmoline glop for $49 USD each. The first one I got is the third most accurate rifle I own, the other one is just about as accurate as $50 will buy. I bought 1600 rounds of non-corrosive Berdan-primed Swedish military surplus blank cartridges with wooden bullets from Samco Global

http://www.samcoglobal.com/ammo.html

for my brass supply. Lee Precision makes their 7.5x54 French die set specifically for resizing the Swedish 6.5x55 cases and it works REALLY slick. The only problem is sizing and priming the Berdan cases, which I do by punching and levering the spent primers out with a square ice-pick type of tool I made. Once the pocket is empty I drill a new flash hole from inside with a special drill I made that centers between the two little Berdan holes, then I shear the anvil tit off with a “micro-chisel” I made, and then insert regular United States large rifle size Boxer primer shimmed with thick pleated-type coffee filter paper to keep them from falling out. I have re-primed and fired several hundred full power loaded Berdan cases in this manner and the primers do not leak or blow out. The Swedish 6.5x55 brass does not even need to be trimmed to length after being resized to 7.5x54 French, being dead-nuts exactly the right length, which leads me to believe that the French did not invent or design the cases they use, they simply “plagiarized” the Swedish 6.5x55 brass by opening it up to 0.308” diameter! I use the 7.65 Argentine Mauser loading data for it since the two cartridges are extremely close in shape and dimension. The strength of the MAS 36 action has been proven several ways, Buckshot having loaded up his .45-70 convert to levels that would give a lot of rifles hemorrhoids. For a medium action it is a reasonably strong one! Because of its strength it can handle anything from the 7.65 Argentine loading data.

On my accurate MAS 36, I took off all of the barrel guard wood, which holds the bayonet and some other hardware, making it a light-weight easy to carry rifle. It still looks pretty awful-ugly but the little Southern New Mexico black bear and coyotes that look up the business end of the barrel don’t care one bit.

[Buckshot]

................Hey Linstrum, good to see you posting. Still in New Mexico Territory, eh?

...............Buckshot

[Four Fingers of Death]

I was wondering if this would rechamber? The cost of a rechamber for me would be less than getting new dies, brass, etc. Appreciate any help because I'm loading for more calibres than I can poke a stick at and don't want to start off a new line.

[Linstrum]

Hi guys!

Well, FFM, unfortunately the French 7.5 cartridge is longer than the 7.62 NATO so there isn't any meat left to clean up for the new chamber. The barrel has to be changed out. There isn't enough meat for a .30-06, either, DARN IT! It really is too bad that the French 7.5x54 is such a stinking orphan since it is a pretty powerful well-designed cartridge when loaded up to modern specs and the MAS 36 is definitely up to the task if the pressure is kept out of the magnum range. The only cartridge that it might stand a chance of being rechambered to is the 7.65 Argentine Mauser, but it would not be a total fresh cut into virgin metal since the 7.65 is a few 0.001s of an inch smaller at the base. It would work, but it would be a loose fit, kind of like the British .303 is normally. I was hoping that it could be re-chambered in that one, but the British cartridge body is around 0.460" at the head end while the Froggy is around 0.480". Nope, you have very few re-chambering options open to you for the ugly but otherwise good-shooting little bugger, and you will need to re-barrel instead. The 7.62 NATO is a good one, as I am sure you are already very well aware!

Yeah, Buckshot! I'm still here in State #47, I have been enjoying the deserted desert, lonely cactus, vacant canyons, empty flats; and most of all, the Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms not available to me in Kalifornistan. I have been here for 120 days now and I qualify as a resident for making gun purchases. Last week I had the opportunity to buy a pristine collector grade 1940 Walther P-38 without paperwork because New Mexico doesn't have paperwork or background checks for pistol purchases, just like California was when I was a young man back when Harry S Truman was president. The price for the P-38 was a bit steep at $675 and because I am a shooter and not a collector I passed on buying it. I'm getting a 1947 Walther P-1 in pristine collector grade condition for $425 instead, they are identical to the P-38 except the P-1 has an aluminum frame and a substantially smaller price tag.

[Buckshot]

I was wondering if this would rechamber? The cost of a rechamber for me would be less than getting new dies, brass, etc. Appreciate any help because I'm loading for more calibres than I can poke a stick at and don't want to start off a new line.

...............I know the semi-auto MAS49's were sold here in the states in a 308 conversion. I know they did NOT replace barrels. IIRC they used a chamber insert. I think someone on the board has one, but danged if I can recall who? You might check on the French Rifles Forum at Gunboards.com for an answer.

.............Linstrum, I can appreciate the feeling of freedom. When I visit my folks in Sierra Vista AZ, I like to go to the swap meet. The Lions club puts it on each Saturday. There is generally at least one guy there selling just guns, and sometimes 2 or 3. However walking up and down the aisles you'll find them too, amongst the lawnmowers, tools, and other garage fotsam and jetsom.

Since there are no private party sales restrictions there for firearms you pays your bucks and takes your gun. Sweet! Last couple of times I was there I wanted to buy one just for the old time feeling.

I take it you're not getting homesick at all?

.....................Buckshot

[26Charlie]

I looked at these when they came to the US, but could not see how to make a windage adjustment on the sights, and the ladder rear did not seem too sturdy. How are they to work with?

[Buckshot]

.............I don't recall. If there WAS a windgae adjustment it would have had to have been up front.

http://www.fototime.com/0E6605AE3358FFB/standard.jpg

The rear sight sure didn't have one.

....................Buckshot

[bravokilo]

NO windage adjustment!! IIRC they had peep assemblies that were offset and they swapped them out as needed.

BK

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have an M17 with a 308 conversion insert.

[Maxthompson]

...............I know the semi-auto MAS49's were sold here in the states in a 308 conversion. I know they did NOT replace barrels. IIRC they used a chamber insert. I think someone on the board has one, but danged if I can recall who? You might check on the French Rifles Forum at Gunboards.com for an answer.

.....................Buckshot

Rick,

I've gota 49/56 what they did was set the barrel back a fraction of an inch. I had to send the first one back since it had very sticky extraction. I solved it on the second by polishing the chamber and making the gas system adjustable.

Mike

[Four Fingers of Death]

flicking through an aussie gun mag today and there is a shop in Sydney which I deal with all the time that has commercial brass and dies for this rifle. Now, all I have to do is get the guy to accept my offer.

[Four Fingers of Death]

When I was in another town I bought a Mosin Nagant for $150 and the MAS was $250. I put an offer on the rifle of $150 (calm down these prices are very cheap for Australia). He told me that the guy came in every week or so.

I rang the gunshop today. and the guy had said he wanted more for the MAS because it had dies and a heap of good brass and ammo. He was prepared to drop it to $200 all up, so I bought it.

The fact that I now have about eight military rifles and five or six lever guns that need loads worked out for did not put me off acquiring another piece at all. I am a sick man.

[Buckshot]

"..............The fact that I now have about eight military rifles and five or six lever guns that need loads worked out for did not put me off acquiring another piece at all. I am a sick man."

...........Does sound like you have a touch of it there, Mick 8).

...........Buckshot

[Herb in Pa]

Century Arms converted the MAS 49/56 to .308 winchester as follows:

(1) They were pulling the original barrels from the receivers and remachining the barrel shoulder location by 9/16 inch set-back, which then allowed them to re-cut the new 7.62x51mm NATO chamber into almost virgin metal.

(2) Other than shortening the length of the gas tube to match the new shortened barrel length, there was no modification to the gas system.

(3) They were using the original French recoil spring and recoil system.

Both my MAS's are in original 7.5 French configuration. I do recall that there were some extraction issues with the Century conversions...........

[Four Fingers of Death]

"..............The fact that I now have about eight military rifles and five or six lever guns that need loads worked out for did not put me off acquiring another piece at all. I am a sick man."

...........Does sound like you have a touch of it there, Mick 8).

...........Buckshot

There's a mess of bolt guns and steenking pistolas as well, shucks, I'll never get it done! :-( , :-)

[j4570]

Graf's has brass I believe now, pretty reasonable, but I see you got brass with your purchase.

[Four Fingers of Death]

We also have brass available out here as well. Thanks anyway.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I don't normally shoot any one else's reloads, but they came in a bag with a card with all the loading info and the dies had the info repeated. OAL, etc. I measured a random selection and they were spot on, I pulled bullets from 5 cases randomly, the charges were as noted i=on the info, spot on. I inspected the cases and they had been trimmed and chamfered and were all exactly the same size. I took the rifle to the range and shot it at 100. The targets were being raised and lowered with each shot and an orange marker placed over the bullet hole. shot really well and the 200 yard (lowest setting) was spot on at 100. I think he had tuned it to that.

The cases didn't eject very clearly and I will have to look at that for competition shooting. The club then went back to the 300yd mound and I tried it on the 400 metre setting, good guess! spot on, first two shots were bullseyes (not centrals).

Shot prone, considering the poor trigger, no shooting jacket and no sling, the rifle performed way above expectations. The bullets were 155Gn Sierra Palma Match.

It was a bear to clean afterwards, but it is squeaky clean now and I have some old 30 cal boolits stashed away. I will have to give them a try now that I have emptied a few cases.

Its funny, I expected the brass to be impossible to get, but there is a shop selling it (as well as 7.62x54 Russian, etc) in Sydney for the same price as 3006 brass! I'm gonna stock up on this, I can see this being a long partnership.

Now how do I sort that trigger? Not gritty, but heavy!

[Buckshot]

Now how do I sort that trigger? Not gritty, but heavy!

............When you pull the buttstock you'll see the trigger setup is very similar to the Mauser. Different in only a couple details like the direction the spring is pointing. But all the same parts are there and doing the same job. Trigger has the humps just like the Mauser, etc, etc.

Clip a half a coil off the spring at first and then quarters if it needs more. Polish everything that touches. If the pins allow the sear and tigger to wobble then replace them. The best way is to use hardened steel and the best for that is drill bit shanks.

By checking letter, number, fractional and metric bits you'll either luck out and fine the exact right one, or get one 'just' to big and use it to drill out the holes and then sacrifice it to form the pins for the holes by cutting lengths off the shank.

................Buckshot

[Four Fingers of Death]

Thanks Buckshot, I knew you'd come through. I like the wood on your one, mine looks like its been made from packing crates. Shoots ok though. I'm heading off to Sydney to da a short course at the Academy. I'll ckeck it out when I get back. Mick.

[Linstrum]

Hey, there, 4FM, I don't need to ask you how you are doing! It sounds like your 36 MAS was cast out of the same mould as my first one! Congratulations on getting one that is an excellent shooter!

For my MAS 36 "match ammo" I have been using 0.308-inch diameter 147-grain fmj boattails from de-milled military ammo along with the brass jackets from unfilled military tracer ammunition that weigh 140-grains. The original MAS 36 projectile was 139-grains, and that weight is the optimum. Unfortunately, I doubt if you can get the unfilled tracer jackets in Australia since they are also de-milled United States military surplus, but my point is that the 140 or 139-grain projectiles do very well with the one turn in 10.75-inches rifling. That turns rate is unique in 0.308-bore rifles but according to Julian Hatcher it is THE ideal.

U.S. Army General Julian Hatcher was one of the greatest ballistics analysts of the 20th Century and he left us with a wealth of information. If you can get a copy of his book, "Hatcher's Notebook", it will be very useful (especially for U.S. military small arms) plus there is a lot of just plain interesting and even fun reading in it.

Anyway, I am very pleased that another shooter has discovered one of the best kept secrets out there, which is the MAS 36 is an EXCELLENT shooter! Our rank has increased by one more.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Hey, there, 4FM, I don't need to ask you how you are doing! It sounds like your 36 MAS was cast out of the same mould as my first one! Congratulations on getting one that is an excellent shooter!

For my MAS 36 "match ammo" I have been using 0.308-inch diameter 147-grain fmj boattails from de-milled military ammo along with the brass jackets from unfilled military tracer ammunition that weigh 140-grains. The original MAS 36 projectile was 139-grains, and that weight is the optimum. Unfortunately, I doubt if you can get the unfilled tracer jackets in Australia since they are also de-milled United States military surplus, but my point is that the 140 or 139-grain projectiles do very well with the one turn in 10.75-inches rifling. That turns rate is unique in 0.308-bore rifles but according to Julian Hatcher it is THE ideal.

U.S. Army General Julian Hatcher was one of the greatest ballistics analysts of the 20th Century and he left us with a wealth of information. If you can get a copy of his book, "Hatcher's Notebook", it will be very useful (especially for U.S. military small arms) plus there is a lot of just plain interesting and even fun reading in it.

Anyway, I am very pleased that another shooter has discovered one of the best kept secrets out there, which is the MAS 36 is an EXCELLENT shooter! Our rank has increased by one more.

That's very interesting, I'm looking forward to knocking a few rough edges off the rifle and getting it really percolating. I will pick up a few Swede charger clips for it shortly. I will have to get a French Foriegn Legion hat as well! :-)

March au Greve!

[Ed Barrett]

Mick, do you have a hat for every gun you shoot? I saw the "Zulu wars" one when you were shooting the M-H. You ought to post some pictures of all your hats. Us poor boys here in Missouri spend all our money on guns and can't afford but one hat. <G>

[Four Fingers of Death]

Mick, do you have a hat for every gun you shoot? I saw the "Zulu wars" one when you were shooting the M-H. You ought to post some pictures of all your hats. Us poor boys here in Missouri spend all our money on guns and can't afford but one hat. <G>

I'm not the hat man. I wear a white cowboy hat in winter and in summer and a bit on either side I wear a huge brimmed brown felt hat. For aussie military shooting I wear an Aussie army slouch hat. I was an officer in the Lighthorse, so I wear the feather plumes on the left hand side, but I took pity on a yank tourist who was almost willing to swap his wife for my hat so I let it go. I haven't got around to replacing them yet. I'm a bit overweight at the moment and I don't feel right wearing Light horse gear as they were a lean outfit. My alias in cowboy shooting is four fingers of death and my wife thinks that I should be wearing a black hat!