Krag Target Analysis

[madsenshooter]

OK guys. Here's a pic of target I shot today with my scout scope equipped 92/96 Krag. The load was: B&M 311169 cast at BHN15, lubed with Carnuaba Red sized .311 for my .310 groove diameter barrel. Said boolit is seated over 15grs of Blue Dot and seated out to where the front band touches the little cone that is at the end of a Krag chamber. Distance was about 85 yards. Discounting the high shot and the one to the left leaves six shots within a 2" square, and a 5 shot sub group of 1.25" square within that. Certainly minute of beer can and darn good for a 114 year old rifle with my homemade ammo, but which variable would you think I should change to make the group smaller? Changing powders or boolits isn't an option. Less Blue Dot, more Blue Dot, size .312 are about the only options available. I've read that this boolit can be a bear at velocities over 1400 and I'm above there, I'd estimate it's going around 1500.

[Maven]

I'd be inclined to try two things: (1) 15grs. B. Dot with the CB's @ .311" v. .312" and (2) 14grs. B. Dot with CB's sized to .311" and .312". If changing the charge and diameter don't improve accuracy, I experiment with the OAL. Hope this helps!

[Shiloh]

Similar to what Maven Suggested.

I'd try .312 at the same powder charge first. Going from .311 to .312 improved the groups from my Krag 98 cutdown. Bore is .310.

Shiloh

[Char-Gar]

There is little or no information that can be gleaned from one target. A shot might have been a flyer, a bullet with a void, a gas check miseated, a fouling shot, etc. etc. etc. When something repeats itself, then it can be analyzed.

[Throwback]

I agree with the advice above. That bullet will handle (a lot) more velocity but it won't do it with Blue Dot. Pistol powders in the Krag work best under 1,600 fps and unless you are hunting, the additional velocity is not needed. Slower powders are necessary to achieve higher velocities accurately.

[StarMetal]

My Krag loves the 311284 and the 314299 with just about every rifle powder.

Joe

[leadman]

Are you weighing your bullets? I also am playing with a Krag using Blue dot. So far 10grs. to 13 grs. are grouping better than 14+ grs. Also I am setting the OAL just long enough to feel the bolt close tighter than normal. I am also using a boolit .002" over bore diamater to fit the oversized throat better.
If the 40 mile an hour winds die off tonight I'll go to the range tomorrow.

[madsenshooter]

Today I selected 5 boolits that weighed exactly the same, sized to .312, the throat forces them back in the case a bit when I close the bolt, same 15gr charge, and I was very careful about seating the gaschecks. The 4 shots in a horizontal line on my target above indicates to me that the velocity for those 4 was very uniform. What boolit you playing with leadman? I'm going to figure out something with Blue Dot, just got 5lbs from Pat McDonald at a good price, and just in time as I'm at the bottom of the lb I bought about 10 years ago. Just a touch faster than 2400, results should be similar. I'll post the results if there's any appreciable difference.

[Shiloh]

Like leadman says.

I started playing with seating depth a little. .002 oversize with the 314299.
A group of twenty five has most within a four inch circle, about haf of them in a 2 1/2
cluster. The rest are spread around some. Those are the ones I need to bring in.

My 52 year old eyes are also a part of the problem. There are days when I just don't see an SR-1 100 yd military target.

Shiloh

[atr]

before you go fiddling with your load I suggest you try this same load several more times at the 100 yd range. You will get a more through pattern on how the load is actually behaving.
Also, I sometimes start my shooting at 50 yards..my eyes get used to the distance (a warm-up) and then I extend the range to 75 or 100 yds. I usually shoot better at longer ranges this way..
atr

[madsenshooter]

Here's a link to something that can help with the eyesight mine, are only 51 year old, a 7 power scope is sure an aid. Don't know if your Krags are original or sporterized, this would be ok on a sporter, and he makes little 3 inch long ones that work with a handguard on an original will be up for business soon. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=260383723475

[madsenshooter]

If it weren't for that one dead center hit, I'd be going back to j-words! Sizing to .312 as you can see, didn't help things, nor did using bullets of the exact same weight. All the shots were good, I had a good stable rest. I'm trying to get a good load for 100yd Vintage matches, perhaps I'll try slowing down like leadman says, if that don't work, I have other boolits to try, a couple differrent Eagan's the Lee CTL 312-160 does better than this boolit. I gotta say though, I'm beginning to think all this alchemy would be a good thing to know in case of emergency, but essentially not worth the trouble unless said emergency comes up.

[atr]

try using 2400 powder,,,its very good in large cases like the 30-40....my military .303 british with combat sights give me better groups then what you have....I can understand your frustration.

[leadman]

So far in the Krag boolit 311291 has the smallest group.
Went to the range this morning and it was closed due to high winds. At my house about 15 miles away it was dead calm when I left. Maybe in the morning.

[Maineboy]

I'm really not familiar with the boolit you're using, but from what I've read, it's similar to the 311413. I have a peep sighted sporterized 1898 with a well worn throat and a .310 bore. I've shot boolits from just about every 30 caliber mold I own in it and looking over my data, heavier boolits just seem to perform better. The best results were with the 314299 sized .311, seated as far out of the case as possible but still allow feeding through the magazine. Just about any powder I tried with that boolit worked well. You might also want to check your scope and mount as a very tiny bit of play can really cause problems on the target. I have shot the 311413 in my Krag but I can only find reference to one load, 10 grains of Unique, and that went 4 inches at 100 yards.

[Dan Cash]

Madsen,
Check your action screws. That horizontal stringing surely looks lik what my M70 was doing when a screw worked loose. Also, though I am dead nuts new to the small bore cast bullet game, these guys are giving good advice on the use of 2400 and other rifle powders. I don't have much luck with faster powders in .300 Sav or 30-40.
Dan

[JSH]

I have found BD to be position sensitive. Did you tip the rifle up before every shot? What BD loads I have fooled with in a few rifle bottle neck cases it worked well, if you paid close attention and tipped the barrel up. I seem to have been very lucky with the Krag I bought for my son, slugged at 309+ muzzle and throat. SR4759 was a good one and I also tried IMR4227.
jeff

[atr]

yes that boolit (the one your are using) is similiar to 311413

and let me tell you that 311413 is really tough to get good accuracy from.....

[Char-Gar]

Time for a new bullet. The Squibb bullet is quite touchy and fickle and you are getting frustrated.

I have two Krag rifles, one with a .3095 barrel groove and the other with a .312 barrel groove. I have found it easy to get good groups with both of these rifles using 311291, 311334, 311467, 1311407 Mod. and 311284. I size the bullets .311 for the smaller barrel and .313 for the larger barrel. I have to neck turn my cases to use the .313 bullet, but it worth the effort.

I use 2400 power in the 16-18 grain range and 50/WC872 for charges.

I would inquire if you have truly cleaned that Krag barrel from metal fouling. I have seen some Krag barrels with a huge amount of fouling from years of shooting those dreadful little yellow thingies. It can be a booger bear to clean out.

If you have a Krag rifle with a decent clean barrel, it will shoot cast bullets well.

Cast bullet shooting is the post graduate level of reloading and accuracy often does not come easy. But, it will come to those who are willing to learn, try different things and persevere in the quest. Lots of folks give cast bullet a try, are not meet with sucess and give up before the break the code. Pity!

[Larry Gibson]

madsenshooter

Is that bullet GC'd or not? What is the weight? Perhaps a picture of the bullet? Do you have access to a chronograph? Did you work up to this load or just pick it out?

Hard to give any evalutation of groups without the above answers.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

Don't forget that a Krag was made when the bullet jackets were cupro-nickel and left a very hard to remove fouling. In my 1930s American Rifleman magazines there are references to shooters of the day oiling the bullets before firing them to reduce fouling.
I don't know if current solvents will remove this ar not. Back then the way to remove it was a wire brush.
Boolit 314299 has been a good one also in my Krag. I'm still playing with different boolits and powders since this is a recent purchase.

[madsenshooter]

The reason for the difference between the patterns in target 1 and 2 was that target 2 was shot with a softer boolit. I got some mixed, target 1 was shot with a BHN23 boolit sized to .311, 2 was shot with a BHN15 boolit sized to .312. I have an alloy that casts at 23, and that should respond to further heat treatment, I'm going to try one last experiment to see if I can get this cursed boolit to shoot good in my Krag. It's the first 30 caliber mold I bought and I want it to work! If not, I just cast a bunch of Eagan MX3-30ARs that will be the next experimental subject. I know the gun will shoot, you should see what it does with a .310 123gr V-Max jacketed bullet! Busts the myth that Krags won't shoot good with a short bullet.

[Echo]

I think you may be on to something with heat-treating your boolits. The long ogive of that boolit lends itself to slump. Heat treating may strengthen the boolit enough to reduce the possibility, or amount, of slump. If the boolit gets started slightly off-center, or slightly cocked, slump will cause inaccuracy (but you knew that...).

[madsenshooter]

Now I'm happy with the B&M 311169 for 100 yard competition. I made several changes, the biggest one, I slowed down with a charge of 12.5 grains of Blue Dot. First I tried them with Large Pistol Primers, and the groups were still too big to suit me. I loaded some with Rem 9 1/2M primers (said to be the mildest of magnum rifle primers), as that was all I had, voila! With this load I can embarrass some of the black gun shooters! I realize that there's a diff between iron sight shooting and this 7 power scope. The scope is just for proving my load, I'll then know any dispersion on target with the iron sights is all me. I knew the rifle was capable! I think I'll work up something with the Eagan MX3-30AR for 200 yard work. I really want that one close to 2000fps. Oh, that's 5 shots pictured, though hard to make out. I'd estimate velocity @ around 1250fps, the target is at 85 yards or so, my rest is the banister of my back porch.

[leadman]

Looks like you are getting that Krag dialed in.

Looks like that Krag must have a good shooter behind it!

[madsenshooter]

Thanks for the compliment Leadman. If not for the primer shortage, I wouldn't have tried the large rifle magnum primer in this load, figuring the regular large rifle to be more than enough fire. I'll have to try some of the previously frustrating loads with a the Rem 9 1/2M and see if that's what it takes to straighten them out. I was on an Ohio state championship rifle team once, but it wasn't my shooting that won, a little fat guy (real solid in prone) had just purchased an M1A. He was a marksman, but had the shooting day of his life, Xs and 10s all day, he carried the rest of team.