Hard fouling inaccuracy

[joeb33050]

I asked this before here, got no suggestions that worked. Savage Striker in 308 Win., cast bullets. Developed a load that shot under 2" 100 yard 5 shot 5 group averages. This 3 times at the range, 3 consecutive Wednesdays. Cleaned after 3 foulers, 10 for record. Noticed a hard gritty fouling. Since the last of the 3 mentioned, I have attempted to duplicate the load. Changed scopes, tightened everything, checked everything, no luck. Yesterday the failure again. Shot 3 groups 2+ inches, the fourth group had 3 shots OFF THE PAPER. Cleaned a lot, 5th group 2.4".
Checking for lead, a kleen bore tight patch feels the fouling ~10" up the barrel, gritty-the same feeling as when the bore has some lead. NO LEAD. Eventually the bore is clean, then the gun shoots fine again. It's windy here 20-30 mph gusts are normal.
The only thing I have left is this. I put a new sticl of Lyman Alox lube in the 450 a while back, and there is some old = dark lube in the grooves, and some new light lube in the grooves. I've been using Lyman Alox lube for many years, have some sticks that may be lighter in color than old sticks-I don't know because I don't have any old sticks. But there are clearly 2 colors of lube in the 450, two different colors in the grooves. Hard gritty not lead,
fouling. Anyone?
Thanks;
joe b.

[DLCTEX]

I would also suspect the lube is the problem. May be a bad batch, or your rifle may not like this lube. The only way to test is to change the lube and see if it helps. I would suggest one of the carnuba wax lubes. It may also be a powder fouling. What load are you using? You could try changing powders an see if the problem goes away. Don't worry about accuracy at first, just diagnose the fouling by changing an easy component first. Also don't rule out the combination of powder and lube being the problem.

[44man]

I have always said that Alox burns and leaves ash in the bore. It SMOKES when shot. Good lube does not smoke.

[joeb33050]

I have always said that Alox burns and leaves ash in the bore. It SMOKES when shot. Good lube does not smoke.
I've experimented, as many of us have, with lubes. I never found one "better" than another. I shoot slow, 21/IMR4227,314299, 12/31/08, 1.96" avg; 1/7/09, 1.785" avg.; 1/14/09, 1.580" avg. All Lyman Alox.
Same lube, M54 Win 30WCF, new light/dark Lyman Alox lube, 31141, 12/Accurate #9, 3/18/09, 1.235" average, which is about average for this gunj, all 5 shot 5 group averages.
The Alox worked last week in the M54, could it not be working now in the pistol?
BTW, I use DARR lube in 32/35, .446 Werndl, 30/30, 45/70; and have used it in Sharps 40-1 7/8" straight, 32/40, 38/55, maybe another half dozen cartridges/guns--never found a pan lube "better" than DARR.
I don't use Alox for pan lubing, was advised not to because heat affects the lube ~30 years ago.
I've been looking for reliable reports of "good" lube accuracy variation for many years, have none to date.
joe b.

[joeb33050]

I'm getting the same kind of fouling in a 308 Win using A#9, accuracy at 100 yards, 5 shot groups
clean, .95", 1.5", 2.75", clean, 1.25", 2.3"
then
clean, 1.1", 1.55", clean, 1.2", 2.35", clean 1.3"

I can see accuracy fall as shots increase.
Cleaning, brushing with nynex brush, Marvel Mystery Oil. takes many many patches.
I'm going to try another lube.
??????????
joe b.

[leftiye]

Right on Joe, not all lubes are equal. Try a lube with Carnauba wax in it. It will coat your bore and keep it shiny. I like to think that the bore coating is the issue in lubes (I also like a little MDS in the coating). Other than that, whatever you can do to have the necessary coating and no more (Carnauba doesn't build up) sounds best. Enough lube, no more, and a lube that doesn't build up nor leave deposits. Clean burning powders may also help. I know this powder ash thing doesn't necessarily contribute to inaccuracy, but not having it removes a possible problematical variable.

Bullshot's Speed Green works well at low temperatures where many other lubes cause hard fouling problems. It may offer an insight into how to avoid hard fouling.

[Maven]

joe, AA #9 leaves a hard deposit? I've been using WC 820 (AA #9 burn rate) in all of my rifles and 3 revolvers for years with a variety of lubes (Felix Lube, Lyman Super Moly, LBT Blue) and haven't yet had a problem with fouling or accuracy that I couldn't attribute to operator error. Is it possible that the milsurp version of AA #9 is cleaner burning?

[joeb33050]

joe, AA #9 leaves a hard deposit? I've been using WC 820 (AA #9 burn rate) in all of my rifles and 3 revolvers for years with a variety of lubes (Felix Lube, Lyman Super Moly, LBT Blue) and haven't yet had a problem with fouling or accuracy that I couldn't attribute to operator error. Is it possible that the milsurp version of AA #9 is cleaner burning?
Paul;
I get the fouling with IMR4227, A#9, 5744 so far. Unique too. It ain't the powder.
I need 2 sticks of rifle lube for the 450, NRA dark brown or any other reputable lube. Will send cash. No lube to be found here. Anyone???????
joe b.

[Larry Gibson]

joe

Hard to say what the problem is. Send the M54 30-30 to me and I'll send it back when I figure out the problem:-)

Larry Gibson

[Maven]

joe, PM sent about the lube.

[Blammer]

change lubes, should solve the problem.

[hydraulic]

All my rifles and loads shoot consistently; 14 inch group one day, l6 inch the next, 12 inch etc. etc.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Check out Bull shop and Lars at the bottom of the page, they both ahve "Great" stuff...

[runfiverun]

lars's lubes should be fine for what you are doing.
his 50-50 nra type with carnuba is pretty good as is his 2700.
his red is good nuf for pistols.

[joeb33050]

I suspect the Lyman NRA lube.
Cleaned out the 450.
Pan lubed some 314299s with Darr lube, sized them and loaded for the Audette and Striker 308s. Will shoot them tomorrow.
Got some Lyman Super Moly from Maven today. I'll lube some bullets with that, and load and shoot next Wed.
Thanks, Maven.
joe b.

[1Shirt]

I have had no problem with LLA up to maybe 1700, but beyond that accuracy goes south. I have gone to Lar's red exclusively for anything over the 1700 mark, and that has taken care of my problems other than old age, bad eyesight, etc.etc.etc.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[joeb33050]

Shot the Striker Wednesday, 29 shots, the last 5 shot target was the best of the four, no hard fouling. Also shot the Audette Mauser, shot OK but took a long time to clean. Darr lube fixed the fouling problem in the Striker-helped in the Mauser.
Put the Lyman Moly in the 450, sized/lubed and loaded 308 Win for the Striker and Audette, 308 BR for the Competitor. There's now a light coat of Lyman Moly on kme and everything I own. Next Wed. should tell the story.
joe b.

[Maven]

The fact that Super Moly stains everything it touches isn't one of its more endearing characteristics. Come to think of it, neither is its retail price.