38spl brass question

[Jeffery8mm]

I am in the process of loading up ALOT of 38spl ammo. Sorta of a "just in case deal"!! In my last brass purchase there was alot of WCC brass with a date stamped on it also. such as WCC74 or so. The problen is with this brass, my cast 158gr Lee tl boolit wont chamber in any of my revos. Any other brass does fine, but this brass lookes like a snake swallowed an egg with this boolit. Is this a thicker military type brass?? Jacketed stuff seems to work fine in this brass. I dont really want to shoot j word stuf though. My cast are sized to .358.
Problem is, I have already primed several hundred of these. Can I reclaim the primers???
Thanks
Jeff

[jdgabbard]

You cannot safely reclaim the primers without ruining them. Sorry. As for the brass, yeah its military brass most likely. I've got some of that old stuff, and it is pretty thick. Not to mention a lot of them have crimped primer pockets that require a little bit of work. Did it seem a little more than usually difficult to seat the primers?

Best bet, would be to take that stuff and use it for j-word projectiles. Either that or buy a wheel gun that has generous chambers. I've never had a problem with mine.

Another thing to check is your crimp. Since the brass is thicker you might want to back off of your crimp. This might be enough to let it chamber. Sometimes less is more when it comes to dealing with thick brass.

Try the crimp idea first, and if that doesn't work I'd either ream the necks a little, or just use the j-word projectiles.

[JW6108]

You cannot safely reclaim the primers without ruining them. Sorry. As for the brass, yeah its military brass most likely. I've got some of that old stuff, and it is pretty thick. Not to mention a lot of them have crimped primer pockets that require a little bit of work. Did it seem a little more than usually difficult to seat the primers?

Best bet, would be to take that stuff and use it for j-word projectiles. Either that or buy a wheel gun that has generous chambers. I've never had a problem with mine.

Another thing to check is your crimp. Since the brass is thicker you might want to back off of your crimp. This might be enough to let it chamber. Sometimes less is more when it comes to dealing with thick brass.

Try the crimp idea first, and if that doesn't work I'd either ream the necks a little, or just use the j-word projectiles.

+1 on everything he said.

I keep military and +P marked brass segregated from what I call "standard" brass. Once in a while, you will run across brass that is not military or marked as +P and it will also be thick. The old S&W brand manufactured by Fiocchi many years ago comes to mind and I'm sure that there are others.

I have had no end of trouble over the years with flush seated wadcutters swelling this heavier brass so they are difficult to chamber. I haven't had your problem with anything else however. You may want to look at a taper crimp for your application, but without having your loads in hand I am having to guess about that.

[dubber123]

While I have not done thousands of rounds, I have deprimed brass and re-used the primers. I have never had one fail. I used a standard decapping die, (gently). What is it that gets destroyed by decapping them?

[Shiloh]

Different lots of the WCC can vary in thickness. I have some in a coffee can that I don't use. I hung onto it anyway. Much of it was loaded with 130 gr ball. I suppose I have it in case I ever acquire some FMJ .38 projos. I know for a fact that the 130 gr FMJ for the .38 Super gave poor results when I tried them. Too small.

Shiloh

[Jeffery8mm]

I wonder about the possibility of seating a Lee 125gr round nose that I cast for my 9mm in this WCC 38spl brass?? Would that work. The as cast diamater is smaller for the 125gr boolit. Any thoughts?? This may make a good low recoil load for my wife and her Taurus 605 hammerless 357 snubbie??
Thanks
Jeff

[Jeffery8mm]

Also, could TOO much of a bell couse a problem?? Dont think that is the case though, as the other commercial brass did just fine.
Jeff

[hoosierlogger]

what about the possibility of using a tad smaller diameter boolit?

[Jeffery8mm]

what about the possibility of using a tad smaller diameter boolit?

That is where the 9mm boolit may come into play.
Jeff

[hoosierlogger]

That is where the 9mm boolit may come into play.
Jeff

Roger that my pea brain didnt even register that. It was too busy concentrating on the smell of the neighbors charcoal grill

[Jeffery8mm]

Roger that my pea brain didnt even register that. It was too busy concentrating on the smell of the neighbors charcoal grill

Go make friends with the master of the grill!!!! I grilled pork steaks for my daughter last night. I finally enjoy grilling, but only after kicking the gas grill to the curb!!! Charcoal only now!!
Jeff

[jdgabbard]

While I have not done thousands of rounds, I have deprimed brass and re-used the primers. I have never had one fail. I used a standard decapping die, (gently). What is it that gets destroyed by decapping them?

Well, what gets destroyed is the priming compound sitting under the anvil. But that is not the point. What you are saying you did is VERY dangerous. If you poping the primers out like that without first soaking them for a period of 24 hours in some type of oil (like gun oil) then you run the risk of detonating one. And when your depriming, and their falling into a nice little pile or tube, you can begin to see exactly the severity of your mistake.

Jeffery8mm, I would say that you could try it. What does your barrel slug at? I'm not saying that you would get terrible accuracy, but it couldn't hurt to try. Try water dropping WW alloy, and using a thicker coat of LLA to see if they still lead. If they don't then its just a matter of accuracy. And whether or not that load has it. Gonna take some playing with I am guessing.

[jdgabbard]

Dubber, make no mistake, having several hundred primers detonating at once is something none of us want to be in the same room for.

[dubber123]

Dubber, make no mistake, having several hundred primers detonating at once is something none of us want to be in the same room for.

Never did a mass amount, don't own anything resembling a primer tube. Didn't slam the press handle, all popped out very easily, all fired off as a normal primer should. Dangerous? maybe. I wouldn't do it if I were you then...:-D

[Jeffery8mm]

Accuracy needs to be minute of 6 inch steel plate at 10yds or so. Or if a rouge bowling pin needs tending to at that range, I need to be able to effectively dispatch it.
Jeff

[JW6108]

I wonder about the possibility of seating a Lee 125gr round nose that I cast for my 9mm in this WCC 38spl brass?? Would that work. The as cast diamater is smaller for the 125gr boolit. Any thoughts?? This may make a good low recoil load for my wife and her Taurus 605 hammerless 357 snubbie??
Thanks
Jeff

I think the 125 might be better in that it would not be seated as deeply.

Smaller diameter may help with the bulging issue, but may also result in leading and/or poor accuracy.

I have deprimed live primers without incident using a universal decapping die. Just sayin'.:mrgreen:

[jdgabbard]

Dangerous? maybe. I wouldn't do it if I were you then...:-D

I won't be trying it, and you can take that to the bank.:roll: I try to err on the side of safety. Thats not saying I wear eye protection while casting, or or ear protection while loading. But I don't do things that are overly risky, such as that.

Advise for all those who are reading this thread, a primer costs what? $0.02-0.03? How much is everything else in the immediate area worth, if in fact you have enough go off at a time? Playing this game is kinda like trying to put the pin back in the grenade. You just don't do it.

[epj]

Might try a Lee factory crimp die. In addition to the crimp, it effectively resizes the case as well.

[dubber123]

I won't be trying it, and you can take that to the bank.:roll: I try to err on the side of safety. Thats not saying I wear eye protection while casting, or or ear protection while loading. But I don't do things that are overly risky, such as that.

Advise for all those who are reading this thread, a primer costs what? $0.02-0.03? How much is everything else in the immediate area worth, if in fact you have enough go off at a time? Playing this game is kinda like trying to put the pin back in the grenade. You just don't do it.

You'd probably REALLY hate to see me put them in with a hammer...[smilie=1:

[Jeffery8mm]

OK,, NOT gonna try to reclaim the primers!! Am gonna try the 9mm boolit though!
Jeff

[JW6108]

Never did a mass amount, don't own anything resembling a primer tube. Didn't slam the press handle, all popped out very easily, all fired off as a normal primer should. Dangerous? maybe. I wouldn't do it if I were you then...:-D

Same on everything; you and I must be living on borrowed time. [smilie=1:

[dubber123]

Same on everything; you and I must be living on borrowed time. [smilie=1:

Isn't everybody? :-D

[exile]

Not that I would try to seat a live primer that had already been seated once, but just for discussions sake, how would the primer stay in the case the second time? Aren't there things in a new primer that crimp into the primer pocket (not sure how to say it) that are bent the first time you seat it? Again not sure what I am trying to say.

Thanks for the heads up about +p .38 special brass. I was getting ready to use some tomorrow for the first time. I will load one round and make sure it chambers before I prime all the cases.

exile

[StarMetal]

Have you thought about loading jacketed bullets in that WCC brass?

Joe

[oneokie]

Not that I would try to seat a live primer that had already been seated once, but just for discussions sake,how would the primer stay in the case the second time? Aren't there things in a new primer that crimp into the primer pocket (not sure how to say it) that are bent the first time you seat it? Again not sure what I am trying to say.

Thanks for the heads up about +p .38 special brass. I was getting ready to use some tomorrow for the first time. I will load one round and make sure it chambers before I prime all the cases.

exile

A thing called spring back, of the primer cup.

No, you are probably thinking of the legs of the anvil. Unless one is extremely ham fisted when seating primers, they aren't bent.

A word of caution: If one does decide to remove live primers, look at your press ram and make note if there is a cutout in the ram for a primer arm. If like the RCBS presses with the cutout in the front, think about where a fired primer is going to exit that cutout and where your body is positioned. And a fired primer will come out of that cutout very fast. Path of least resistance. The depriming pin in the die has most of the flash hole filled. Can you say ouch?

[dubber123]

A thing called spring back, of the primer cup.

No, you are probably thinking of the legs of the anvil. Unless one is extremely ham fisted when seating primers, they aren't bent.

A word of caution: If one does decide to remove live primers, look at your press ram and make note if there is a cutout in the ram for a primer arm. If like the RCBS presses with the cutout in the front, think about where a fired primer is going to exit that cutout and where your body is positioned. And a fired primer will come out of that cutout very fast. Path of least resistance. The depriming pin in the die has most of the flash hole filled. Can you say ouch?

And they are powerful little buggers. WAY more powerful than most reloaders know.

[zxcvbob]

I press out live primers on a CH single-stage press -- slowly -- and catch them in a little stainless steel cup under the stage. I empty the cup after each one. If a primer does fire (I've never had one go off) it won't go anywhere. I wear eye protection and ear protection jic.

Save the military .38 Special brass (and old S&W brass) for your lever-action carbine loads. They have more generous chambers than revolvers, so the "snake swallowing a gopher" cartridges should chamber OK.

[Gerry N.]

Has anyone but me thought of using the Lee carbide CARTRIDGE sizing die? It will size the loaded round so it will chamber.


Click Here and scroll down to PISTOL carbide factory crimp die (http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1238023803.3943=/html/catalog/dies-crimp.html)


Gerry N>

[jdgabbard]

You mean the factory crimp die? I just assume everyone has one of those things these days.

[TAWILDCATT]

a bout as powerful as a 22.I have decaped live primers for 67 some odd yrs and never had one go off.but some reloaders are heavy handed and should not even be reloading.I use a bonanza press to decap because it catches the primers.if you reload proper you would have no problems.I have also used the primers again with out problems.I load about 25 different cartridges.have most all brands of presses. :coffee:[smilie=1:

[Jeffery8mm]

Thanks for all the great info and the lessons on safety!!!
Jeff

[hydraulic]

I got ya beat, dubber--I take em OUT with a hammer and a nail.

[bamacisa]

Several things work....1) use swaged bullets or use jacketed bullets, 2) use Lee Factory Crimp Die. 3) Use a bullet that does not seat very deep in the case. Lyman bullet 242 works great in military brass (125 grain round nose)

[dubber123]

I got ya beat, dubber--I take em OUT with a hammer and a nail.

Yeah, you got me, I've never done that...:-D

[Heavy lead]

While I have not done thousands of rounds, I have deprimed brass and re-used the primers. I have never had one fail. I used a standard decapping die, (gently). What is it that gets destroyed by decapping them?

I did this very thing with Federal 205M's about 100 of them 2 months ago, every one of them fired fine when I used them. I must be a lucky sob.

[Recluse]

I had some .357's I loaded up do the same thing--bulge.

I took the decapping pin out of a Lee full-length sizing die I had, and ran the loaded rounds up through it. Sized them perfect, no problems chambering in the cylinder and they shot/shoot fine with zero accuracy problems.

Beats pulling bullets and trying to reclaim primers (which in over 30 years of reloading, I've never had a problem with).

:coffee:

[Leftoverdj]

I wonder about the possibility of seating a Lee 125gr round nose that I cast for my 9mm in this WCC 38spl brass?? Would that work. The as cast diamater is smaller for the 125gr boolit. Any thoughts?? This may make a good low recoil load for my wife and her Taurus 605 hammerless 357 snubbie??
Thanks
Jeff

Yes, 125 grain bullets are your best bet, but you don't want a smaller diameter. That introduces another set of problems. The shorter bullets should be able to be seated in the military cases without being deep enough to encounter the internal taper. That taper is your problem, and it's not limited to military cases. I've run into a good bit of +P+ brass that would not chamber when loaded with the heavier bullets.

[snaggdit]

OK, now I'm really goin to catch flak. Every now and then, a primer gets put in upside down by my Pro 1000. I take my sizing die over to the RCBS single and carefully push it out. I don't re-use it, though. [smilie=1: Brass is too hard to come by!

[Echo]

Or maybe a 105-125 gr SWC - they will be short enough not to enter the case so far as to swell it. The GI cases are definitely heavier/thicker than normal commercial stuff, and the extra wall thickness (they get thicker near the base), together with a 158 gr boolit that goes 'way down into the case, will give it that boa constrictor look, and not allow any seating. Try the lighter boolits.

And, Yes, a smaller diameter boolit might be easier to seat. Will it be accurate in your gun? Accuracy first...

I learned a long time ago not to use GI cases with commercial HBWC's. The case is so strong it swages the pure lead bullet (Swaged, not cast - I differentiate!) down and destroys accuracy.

[odoh]

Yeh, before Gore built the inet for these free exchange of counsel/information/confessions ~ I too decapped live primers as I've had'em upside down, edgeways etc. Usually, I oiled/solvented them overnite sometimes not but even then I would use shop rags, about 4 or so to pack around where the primer would fly out if indeed ignited. I've never tried to reuse any tho. I usually would catch an error before charging. Boolits are messy to pull. Most folks overlook the CARTRIDGE sizing feature of LEEs Factory crimp dies for pistol cartridges. I had stumbled upon the feature recently myself. We hear/read Factory Crimp and stop reading/hearing beyond that point.

I'd really would like to get a Factory Crimp die w/the swaging collet as used on LEEs rifle Factory Crimp die.

[Rick459]

the safest way that i have found to de-prime live primers and to be able to re-use them again is using my lee press which has a moveable primer arm. just push the arm all the way up the slot in the ram and de-prime slowly and the primer arm catches the live primer in the cup with no damage to the primer...HTH
Rick
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture031-2.jpg

[jdgabbard]

How old is that Lee??? Any paint left on that thing?

[Jeffery8mm]

I had some .357's I loaded up do the same thing--bulge.

I took the decapping pin out of a Lee full-length sizing die I had, and ran the loaded rounds up through it. Sized them perfect, no problems chambering in the cylinder and they shot/shoot fine with zero accuracy problems.

Beats pulling bullets and trying to reclaim primers (which in over 30 years of reloading, I've never had a problem with).

:coffee:

Good idea!!! I gotta try this for sure. never thought of that.
Jeff

[Jeffery8mm]

I had some .357's I loaded up do the same thing--bulge.

I took the decapping pin out of a Lee full-length sizing die I had, and ran the loaded rounds up through it. Sized them perfect, no problems chambering in the cylinder and they shot/shoot fine with zero accuracy problems.

Beats pulling bullets and trying to reclaim primers (which in over 30 years of reloading, I've never had a problem with).

:coffee:


Just as an FYI,,, This worked GREAT!!! All rounds that previously would not chamber, now chamber and fire great!!!! I cant see any ill side effects to doing this. Kinda like the Lee FCD huh?
Thanks
Jeff

[fecmech]

First of all I've decapped live primers and reused them many times over my over my 38 years of reloading. Never had one go off either depriming or repriming. Slow steady push out , that's all there is to it.
As far as Military brass for the .38 goes I love it. Back in the 70's I was in the National Guard and scrounged about 3k of WCC 72 brass from GI ball ammo along with 2K of winchester wadcutter brass. I use the military brass for my RN and SWC cast loads and yes you can see the lube groove through the brass BUT! It is the most accurate and uniform (read firm bullet pull) ballistically of my .38 loads. The RN averages less than 2" at 50 yds from those cases in my Model 14 S&W.

[KYCaster]

Want to avoid the bulge??? Use wadcutter brass. All the major manufacturers identify it with two cannalures. If the brass has two cannalures around it, it was originally loaded with a wadcutter bullet.

Jerry

[odoh]

. . . . . Kinda like the Lee FCD huh?
Thanks
Jeff

Yeh, kinda/sorta. Happened to have both configuration dies for 45LC at my fingertips. The Lee carbide sizer mics 0.466" whereas the FCD carbide ring mics at 0.477". 'IF' that relationship holds for the 38Spl/357Mag sizer die you refer to, its probably li'l undersized compared to the FCD. When I used mine to size a loaded/finished cartridge, there was a definite springy feel over the bullet-case portion and the lube grooves were more prominent afterwards. Beats decapping live primers tho.

[acemedic13]

I got ya beat, dubber--I take em OUT with a hammer and a nail.

Lee sells a tool that is made for de-capping primers, with a hammer. The thing that seats in the primer and knocks it out ( from inside the case) looks like a nail. It is really just a hand held de-capping rod. I use mine on and off. I have only reused the primers a few times. With no problems at all.



I would just use a smaller cast boolit like you planned. Have fun and be safe.

[Cloudpeak]

You could buy a Lee push through sizer for around $13.50. They make .356, .357 and .358. http://www.lockstock.com/prodinfo.asp?number=LEE90047

Cloudpeak

[Rick459]

How old is that Lee??? Any paint left on that thing?


that lee is circa 1975. the parts shown in the photo did not come painted. i use this press to only de-cap fired brass and some times remove live primers. i'll take another pic and post it latter.

Rick

[anachronism]

Check your "as cast" bullet diameter. LEE tumble lube moulds often throw oversized bullets. Sometimes they're grossly oversized. Add that to brass that's a little on the thick side & things get tight.

[exile]

I confess I have tried to use the Lee factory crimp die to make a .357 Sig cartridge fit the chamber of my Glock, but never had any success at it. If I load 50 or a hundred of that cartridge, I always get one or two that will not chamber. Maybe I am not understanding how to use a factory crimp die.

You guys are giving me bad ideas. I have never tried to reuse a live primer before, but someday primers may be impossible to find, like next week.

exile

[wildwes]

I've decapped one or two at a time, very gently, while they were live, but I don't think I'd want more than one or two piled up when I'm doing it. lol

[Recluse]

Yeh, kinda/sorta. Happened to have both configuration dies for 45LC at my fingertips. The Lee carbide sizer mics 0.466" whereas the FCD carbide ring mics at 0.477". 'IF' that relationship holds for the 38Spl/357Mag sizer die you refer to, its probably li'l undersized compared to the FCD. When I used mine to size a loaded/finished cartridge, there was a definite springy feel over the bullet-case portion and the lube grooves were more prominent afterwards. Beats decapping live primers tho.

I can get away with using a spare resizing die for the odd-bulged .38 special case with SWC or j-bullets. But for some reason, when I try that with my 148 WCs, my accuracy goes all to the Hot-Place-Below and back. But I also figure that when I have to resort to running my lead boolits already loaded in the case through the resizing die, all I'm really doing is a salvage job at best. Those rounds then go in the Plinking container.

:coffee:

[odoh]

I can get away with using a spare resizing die for the odd-bulged .38 special case with SWC or j-bullets. But for some reason, when I try that with my 148 WCs, my accuracy goes all to the Hot-Place-Below and back. But I also figure that when I have to resort to running my lead boolits already loaded in the case through the resizing die, all I'm really doing is a salvage job at best. Those rounds then go in the Plinking container.

:coffee:

What I see is just that ~ the carbide factory crimper apparently allows for the bullet + case wall thickness where as the resizer is designed to do so w/o the seated bullet.

Found another benefit of having a carbide factory crimper today. When using heavy for caliber boolits in new cases w/channelure, the base of the bullet creats a circular lump ring as it seats below the channelure possibly preventing chambering. A quick pass thru the die, pushes it back down and off the the range we go.

[armyrat1970]

An interesting thread. I use the Lee Carbide Speed die for the 45 and 357. First time out I set the crimp a little to tight for the 45 and crushed the cases somewhat on a few of them. I think I saved them as I hate to throw anything away as far as componets. I will try to run them through the sizer with out the decapper and if that doesn't work will pull the bullets and slowly push out the primer and save the powder and primers. And before someone jumps on me of course when I pull the bullets I will dump all of the powder before I try to push out the primer.:)

Jeffery8mm. Don't think you will have this problem if you seat the 9mm cast bullets you have in the WCC 38spl cases. You will have to watch your pressure and velocity as the bullet is somewhat smaller and may cause a little more leading. Accuracy should be good enough at close ranges.
If you are going to continue to use cast bullets in military cases I suggest you get a sizer.

[woodsoup]

Why remove the primers. Most likly there is to much roll crimp and the case is bulging there. just run The finished rounds through the resize die with out the decap pin and use them up.

[odoh]

Typically, for me, if there's just one or two, I break'em down and discharge the primer only in the garage.

Based on this thread ~ I cautiously deprimed 50 using my Bonanza press taking care not to let too many accummulate in the jar. Still, there is a feeling that its immoral/sin. Didn't/couldn't see any disruption in the sealant/coating w/the unaided eye

[Jeffery8mm]

All of my cast 38/357 stuff gets run through a LEE .358 push trough sizer. That way all boolits are the SAME. I may have put too aggresive of a crimp on it. BUT the sizer die trick did work and I saw no ill side effects of this emergency procedure. I will play with the crimp and possibly invest in a FCD for this round. Thanks for all the great info and replies
Jeff