sale of cast boolits

[shotman]

Buckshot will post a reply I got from atf on sale of cast bullets/boolits to the public this should settle the questions that have been posted shotman/rick

[Bob Krack]

I'm interested so I guess this is a bump.

Bob

[mr mom]

i would also like to hear this .. so please

[Buckshot]

Thank you for contacting the ATF’s Federal Firearms Licensing Center (FFLC) with your e-mail inquiry.

You do not need a license to deal in ammunition, unless you manufacture said ammunition or sell reloads. The Gun Control Act defines “ammunition” as ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm. Check with your State laws for any State requirements. The Office of the Attorney General for your State has oversight over firearms regulations.

I hope this has been responsive to your e-mail inquiry. Thank you for allowing the FFLC to assist with your inquiry and/or concerns.



Sincerely,

Aron McCabe

Customer Service Specialist

[dromia]

So you need a license to sell any cast boolits that you make?

[S.R.Custom]

Yes....

[mr mom]

i think all they want is a sales tax lisc. !!!! why should you make money and the state not get a cut of the action .

[Recluse]

Wow. That is REALLY an ambiguous statement and response from the ATF boys and girls. It's also indicative of just how EASY it is to run afoul of them, thus leading to all kinds of fines, arrest warrants and raids.

In context, it sounds eerily similar to the response one certain Randy Weaver received when he inquired as to the overall length of a long gun and where the exact measurements had to start and stop.

Reading this statement at face value, it appears as though, "Why no, you don't need a license to deal in ammunition."

But then you need to read their definition of ammunition. No where in there does it state that the components have to be assembled or combined in order to constitute "ammunition." Instead, it simply lists the components under the header of "ammunition," then throws in the "reloads" for good measure--which definitely helps include cast/lead projectiles.


unless you manufacture said ammunition or sell reloads. The Gun Control Act defines “ammunition” as ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm.

If you follow the underlined words up above, you'll see just how easily an Assistant U.S. Attorney and an ATF goon could really make your life miserable if you didn't have some licenses to cover all facets of your operation.

No way in the Land of the Hot Place would I cast and sell without a license--even on the side.

But some of you may trust and believe our government more than I do, too.

:coffee:

[S.R.Custom]

Wow. That is REALLY an ambiguous statement and response from the ATF boys and girls.

Actually, federal law is quite clear on this... Here are the highlights:

* It's legal to make your own gun.
* It's legal to make your own ammunition.
* You do not need a license to merely sell ammunition made by licensed individuals or companies.
* If you make* either guns or ammuntion --and this includes ammunition components-- for the purpose of sale to others, you need a license. End of story.

[Edit-- Terminology] "Making" with the intent of sale for profit constitutes "manufacturing," And for that you are required to have a manufacturing license. See my post below for more on this "make" vs. "manufacture" thing.

As for selling cast boolits you made to your buddies, without a license, it's a lot like speeding on the interstate... If you're only going 2 MPH over the limit, chances are the cops won't do anything. But technically, you're violating the law.

The ambiguity comes from 50 different guys here who offer their own interpretation of the law, many of whom have never even read the law.

If you want more information on this, including the legal definition for ammunition and ammunition components, I would HIGHLY suggest reading the law. All pertinent information is found in the "Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide," ATF Publication #5300.4 .

[EMC45]

They went their money. Plain and simple! You can own silencers, machine guns, SBS, SBR, etc. You just have to pay for it................................................ ........................ A lot of money!!!

[shotman]

I had Buckshot post that . What the reply did NOT have is part [a] and part [b] Unless a hull or caseing contains a PRIMER it is NOT classed as loaded ammo . ALL parts cases, primers bullet/boolets, powder, wads, are NOT ammo. They do NOT require a licence to sell each part as a per item... Look up the Gun Control Act and go to Definitions: page 103/104 that has the sub part [a ] nad [b] that the guy [Macabe] did not put in his reply rick
Mr s mag read the GCA are you a FFL? I am

[StarMetal]

I had Buckshot post that . What the reply did NOT have is part [a] and part [b] Unless a hull or caseing contains a PRIMER it is NOT classed as loaded ammo . ALL parts cases, primers bullet/boolets, powder, wads, are NOT ammo. They do NOT require a licence to sell each part as a per item... Look up the Gun Control Act and go to Definitions: page 103/104 that has the sub part [a ] nad [b] that the guy [Macabe] did not put in his reply rick
Mr s mag read the GCA are you a FFL? I am

It is very unclear. The reply Buckshot posted did say you don't need a license to sell cases, hulls, bullets, or powder as long as you don't manufacture them. To me that means if you cast bullets you made them, if you swage jacketed bullets you made them. I don't think any of us make smokeless powder, primers, or cases. That's the way I see what they stated.

Joe

[shotman]

Oh well some are to dense to talk to . I will sell the parts you dont have to and we will all be happy .ATF has enough to worry about Case closed

[briang]

Taken from the ATF's firearm FAQs http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faqindex.htm

"(A4) What kinds of ammunition are covered by the GCA? [Back]

Ammunition includes cartridge cases, primers, bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm other than an antique firearm.

Items NOT covered include blank ammunition, tear gas ammunition, pellets and nonmetallic shotgun hulls without primers.

Generally, no records are required for ammunition transactions. However, information about the disposition of armor piercing ammunition is required to be entered into a record by importers, manufacturers, and collectors.

A license is not required for dealers in ammunition only.

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17) and 922(b)(5), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.125]



(F11) Is a license required to engage in the business of selling small arms ammunition? [Back]

No. A license is not required for a dealer in ammunition only, but a manufacturer or an importer of ammunition must be licensed.

[18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(1)(B)



(H4) Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? [Back]

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41] ]

The way I read this, you need a licence to sell ammunition if you make it, if you don't make it you don't need a licence.

[rockrat]

I guess that if you sell cast boolits that you didn't make (manufacture), you are OK, but If you manufacture them (cast them), and then offer them for sale , then you are SOL, as you need a license.


Guess you could cast them, give them to your wife, and she could sell them. She didn't manufacture them, and you didn't make them to sell, only as a gift!!

[S.R.Custom]

Unless a hull or caseing contains a PRIMER it is NOT classed as loaded ammo .

True.


ALL parts cases, primers bullet/boolets, powder, wads, are NOT ammo. They do NOT require a licence to sell each part as a per item...

True. Sort of. But I said if you manufacture ammunition or components for sale, you need a license.


are you a FFL? I am

Yep... 07.

And "Starmetal" and "briang" have it pegged.

Also, FWIW, there is a HUGE legal difference between the terms "making" and "manufacturing." The difference is covered in the NFA, but essentially "making" is what you do for yourself as an unlicensed individual, whether it's cast boolits, finished ammunition, silencers, or whatever. "Manufacturing" is what you're doing if you make it to sell to someone else.


...Guess you could cast them, give them to your wife, and she could sell them. She didn't manufacture them, and you didn't make them to sell, only as a gift!!

I'll let you argue that one in court. Let me know how that goes. ;)

[Recluse]

Oh well some are to dense to talk to . I will sell the parts you dont have to and we will all be happy .ATF has enough to worry about Case closed

Shotman, careful that you don't become the kettle. . .

All I know is that a long time ago after I got out of college the first time, I took a law enforcement job with the government that sent me to FLETC down in Georgia. I came out of it with a badge, gun and immense power--TOO much power, if you ask me.

You say ATF has enough to worry about. I respectfully submit you do not know ATF very well. I do. I know them VERY well. And I know that they do not have NEARLY enough to worry about. Just ask any DEA man, or any US Marshal, or any Customs agent, or even a few FBI guys. . . I watched ATF muscle in on drug cases, fugitive cases, immigration cases, UFAP cases and more--all under the auspices that a CI told someone that the suspect "might" have a firearm. Thus, you would have a potential FIP (felon in possession) of a firearm--and thus, giving ATF some modicum of jurisdiction.

If you'll recall, that's how the entire Randy Weaver thing started; with an ATF entrapment case. The "interest" the government had in Weaver was his white separist views--which falls nowhere near ANY jurisdiction that ATF might have. (Closest purview might be FBI, but barely and only under certain, narrow conditions and circumstances, none of which are relevant to the discussion at hand.)

I personally could not give a rat's gludeus maximum if you or anyone else sell cast boolits with or without a license. Likewise, I could care less if a license is needed because I have zero interest in selling them. The ONLY interest I really have is that I feel we already have too many licenses, permits, fees and ordinances (read: taxes) to do business here in the U.S.

I stand by my statement that there is some ambiguity in how the post I quoted reads. A key word is "manufacture," and that word is not defined where I see it in the quote. The discussion, which you started, was to be based upon whatever Buckshot posted. What he posted was not the entire GCA, but rather an ATF 1810 compliance agent's response to a question. I doubt you could take the agent's e-mail response into a U.S. District courtroom as a plausible defense in the event you ARE in violation and expect the judge to honor it . . .

Personally, I would spend a few bucks on an attorney who specializes in such matters, and then get clarification from ATF in the form of a clarified or notarized statement/explanation.

Shame that one would have to do that to exercise a Constitutional Right, but that is the world we live in today.

:coffee:

[Wayne Smith]

I guess I'm conflict avoidant. I figure that for $10 a year and a conversation with a pretty lady my FFL06 is a cheap enough investment.