Remington made Moison Nagant rifle.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I found one of these with a reasonable bbl.Made in 1917. It has a mark on the bbl reiforce which looks like crossed cannons in a wreath with a crown on top. Is this Tsarist russian or finnish?

[NuJudge]

Remington only made them for a couple years, and I believe they commenced only at the beginning of WWI. On the barrel shank, a Remington should have, from the muzzle end back: (Crowned Doubleheaded eagle), Remington, Armory, (year), (Serial Number). Some links on receivers and barrels:

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinMarks01.htm

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinReceivers.htm

The Russians lost a lot of 91's in various wars, as well as the Communist government giving a lot away as military aid, so one can find a lot of capture-marked 91's. The Finish capture-mark is a boxed SA, on 91's this is usually stamped somewhere on the barrel shank.

CDD

[shooter575]

Also some of the US made ones were never shiped to Russia.Shipments stoped after the 1917 red takeover.Some were being sold by Sears and Roebuck and the like in the early1920s.They did not sell well.

[KCSO]

They were also issued to American troops stationed near Russia in WWI. I had one of these and it was a well made gun. I see now that the Remington markings bring a premium, but if I remember right Remington made over 100,000 of these rifles.

[Frank46]

KSCO, if memory serves me correctly (darned crs again) i think they were stationed at archangel. Remember seeing pics of U.S. soldiers armed with moisins. Frank

[Four Fingers of Death]

It seems to have a stamp which looks like two crossed cannon barrels in a wreath with a crown on top of it. This appears on the stock, above the Remington Armoury stamp on the barrel reinforce and a smaller version on the LHS of the bolt along with a small D2 stamp. On the LHS of the bolt there is a 75 in a circle. On the top of the bolt there is the number BA97XX. On the top lug there is a small B in a circle and on the extractor there is stamped the ircle B again along with J2. I can't find the piece of paper with the complete receiver markings, but I have just got home and I will no doubt find it this weekend.

[KCSO]

Frank
Dead on, I found a picture last night.

[shooter575]

Found some more info on US Mosin Nagant usage.
Lots of links and info on the Surplus rifle site.Use link at
bottom of our page.click to forums.


USA

The US government has purchased more than a million M/8191 rifles from Remington-UMC and Westinghouse after the Russian revolution. Both companies had large contracts with the former Russian Imperial government to produce the Mosin Nagant. Only 280,00 of these rifles were retained by the U.S. Army and they were for the most part only used for basic training purposes. Oddly enough, many of the US acquired Mosins eventually found their way to Russia when the U.S. sent troops to Archangelsk in 1919. The weapons were so disliked by U.S. soldiers that they were mostly abandoned in Russia when they left in 1920. Many of the Mosin Nagants purchased by the U.S. government ended up with National Guard units and sold as surplus and eventually "sporterized" and sold on the open market. One of the conversions was done by Bannerman in 30-06 and is considered by many to be extremely dangerous to fire.

[Buckshot]

.................4fingermick, most all those single letter marks on various parts and pieces were inspector's acceptance stamps or viewing markings. I have 2 Tula arsenal and an 'Izzy' M91/30 and they're literally covered in little letter and number stamps.

It was said that both Remington and Westinghouse were absolutely crawling with Imperial Russian inspectors. Frank DeHaas said that those rifles had to have been some of the most well inspected rifles ever produced :-). I can't remember where I read it but apparently Remington was about fed up with it all, and the front office had become rather nasty in their attitude toward the Russians they'd been saddled with.

..................Buckshot

[Four Fingers of Death]

Sure is an interesting rifle and I'm pleased to get it. I have two Remington M17s in excellent condition and this was also made in 1917. They will go well together. It may have a military history, but then again it might have just been sold off in the states and bought to its new home by a tourist or a sailor. guess I'll never know.

[Linstrum]

Besides a whole lot of aggravation, the problem with the Imperial Russian inspectors was a bit bizarre and the following is one version I have heard of what actually “went down” at the time!

The Imperial Russian government was in deep trouble financially in 1915 and if the rifles made under contract with New England Westinghouse and Remington were accepted by the inspectors (who knew that a revolution was about to happen and had basically “deserted a sinking ship like rats” along with having embezzled the money allocated by the Czar for weapons), then they would have had to be paid for. Since there wasn’t any money, then Czar Nikolas would have found out that most of his money had been embezzled as soon as it was discovered that there wasn't any money to pay. To keep it a secret from the Czar, the inspectors pretended that the rifles were of such inferior quality that they could only accept the two or three rifles that they found to be “acceptable” every day! Those few rifles of course could be paid for out of the embezzled money quite easily and still leave enough loot for the inspectors to stay blitzed on champagne and entertained with the high class New England prostitutes they so dearly favored. Nikolas never found out that his rifle money had been embezzled by his inspectors, in 1917 being executed in the cellar of his royal palace by firing squad armed with Mosin-Nagants. As was already mentioned, the inspectors were such a pain in the posterior because of the thinly-disguised charade they put up of finding fault with every little detail of every rifle, they were thoroughly despised and hated by the British (New England Westinghouse was owned by Britain at the time) and American businessmen they dealt with. The fallout of all this falderal was that the Remington and New England Westinghouse factories tightened up their quality trying to hold up their end of the contract that they must satisfy, and the vast majority of the rifles they made were far, far, better quality than a lot of other military contract rifles of the era. I have a New England Westinghouse barrel 31-inches long that is one of the finest barrels I have ever seen, rivaling the quality of the Tikkakoski barrels made twenty-five years later in Finland. It is “in the white”, all of the tool marks have been polished off, and the rear site is attached squarely with the solder job being neat and all excess material removed. The bore measures dead nuts 0.310”, not the typical 0.312” to 0.315” usually found in Russian-made rifles.

[26Charlie]

When the Finnish M-N's came in, I ended up with four of them - I mostly shoot the short rifles, but I've often wondered if there is any notable difference in accuracy between the 26" and 31" versions of the Mosin-Nagants either in Finnish or Russian incarnation. I only have the one long-barreled rifle, and since the sights are not as good for me I end up shooting one of the short ones,mostly the 1927, when I take one to the range. Anybody have opinions on this?

[krag35]

A guy I know had one of the Remington/Bannerman Nagant rifles in 30/06. It had all the clunky features of the 7.62X54R, but it shot well. He sold it to a fella who ran over half a box of 8MM Mauser ammo thru it before he was told of his mistake. It's still shooting as far as I know.
krag35

[Frank46]

26Charlie, I have two. The favorite one is my model 27 finnish rework, darn thing thinks its a target rifle. It had a helper spring the finns put there to get a good consistent trigger pull,
about 4lbs. I took it off and have a trigger pull of about 2lbs. has very few dents in the wood and the blue is perfect. The other moisin is a model 44 made in 1944 and have only shot non corrosive stuff through it. Does recoil some but is an accurate carbine. The finnish is somewhat mottled and worn but the bore is in excellent shape. Frank

[rocklock]

IIRC, the Model '91 Nagants in US service were designated, "U.S. Magazine Rifle Calibre 7.62mm Model of 1916"

[Four Fingers of Death]

Believe it or not a shop in Sydney that I deal with all the time has ammo for these, dies and new commercial brass for a reasonable price. Also for the French MAS35 which I posted about separately. Another store, who specialises in military supplies and surplus sold me 10 charger clips, and brand new sling and ammo pouches(I bought 2). They had cleaning kits but I pulled up. I suppose I should ring up and order that too. We are just about eady to rock and roll comrade (ps, the rifle was almost the cheapest part).

[Buckshot]

..............Will be interesting to see how it shoots. I HATE the triggers on M-N's.

...............Buckshot

[26Charlie]

Impetus of this thread made me get the long (31" bbl.) rifle out and take it to the range yesterday. Markings on this gun are VKT, D, serial # in the 16,000 range, 1941, and boxed SA all on the barrel shank. Octagonal receiver has same serial number on the left-side flat. Bolt has a different serial number stricken through over bolt handle, and the same serial number on the bolt boss stamped upside down. Rear sight is stepped ladder, numbers on the left side 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 stricken, numbers on the right side 2 ,3, 4, 5 1/2, 7, 8 1/2 stamped. Looks like a battlefield capture & rebarrel to me. Stock is virtually new & un-dinged, handguard is older with different finish.

Range conditions were not the greatest - about 8 degrees F. with a 15 mph wind at 6 O'Clock, but sunny and with no snow cover on the ground. It was zero the night before. First target was some military hardball of unknown provenance - came in paper packets of 20 tied with string, berdan-primed brass case and a brass-colored bullet. 5-shot group of 3.6 inches at 100 yards with vertical stringing.

Now the fun - Lyman 311413 169 gr. GC with 18.0 gr. XMP-5744 - five shots in 3.35" with 4 of those in 1.15", the off shot vertically strung. I already knew this load shot well - these had been loaded in '92, so 14 years in the box.

The load I put together for the occasion is 20.0 gr. XMP-5744, Lyman 311291 175 gr. GC. A ten-shot group at 100 yards was 4.65", and another 5-shot group was 3.05" with 4 of those into 1.65". Again the groups were vertically strung. I attribute the vertical stringing to the tail wind, and to the fact that by the end of each group my fingers were so cold I couldn't feel them, so trigger control was not the best.

Now I remember about the sights - the steps put the group either 4 inches low (the 5 1/2 step) or 8 inches high (the 7 step) at 100 yards, and adjusting in between is a pain. But these M-N's are lots of fun to shoot anyway.

[XBT]

Buckshot, when you get a chance, try the trigger on a M-39. The Finns reworked these and turned a horrible trigger into a very good one with a two-stage pull. I own two M-39’s and have shot several more and they all have this good trigger.

Come to think of it, the Finns took a functional but very clunky rifle and turned it into a damn fine gun. The M-39’s are among the very best military bolt actions available.

[floodgate]

Buckshot, when you get a chance, try the trigger on a M-39. The Finns reworked these and turned a horrible trigger into a very good one with a two-stage pull. I own two M-39’s and have shot several more and they all have this good trigger.

Come to think of it, the Finns took a functional but very clunky rifle and turned it into a damn fine gun. The M-39’s are among the very best military bolt actions available.

XBT:

You're right, the M39 I got a few weeks ago has a MUCH better trigger than my two Mosins (Russian M91/30 and Romanian M44); they seem to have angled the mating surfaces on the trigger and striker head, where the Russkies are square. I recently got a flier from Num-'n'-Rich (Numrich / Gun Parts Corp. for the "newbies") that offers a "Match Grade Anti-Friction Ball Trigger" for the M-N's (ITEM#932140), at $69.95 - a little too rich for my blood, but tempting, all the same.

Does anyone know where I can get a half-dozen of the GOOD, brass M-N stripper clips? The (stainless?)-steel ones that come with the surplus ammo are too thick-walled and too stiff to load from in any of my three rifles. TIA.

floodgate

[45 2.1]

floodgate- I'll send you some when I return your mold.

[floodgate]

floodgate- I'll send you some when I return your mold.

45:

Great!, and many thanks in advance. Have you figured out yet what that short step on the base of the #457102 bullet is for? Too short for a gas-check, and they hadn't been invented yet when that bullet was designed - in or before 1897 - but it seems to be present in all of these moulds, and can be seen in the photo in the 1973 Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" (also posted on CASTPICS). It'd be interesting to see how it looks on a fired, recovered bullet.

Doug

[Four Fingers of Death]

I just ordered ten clips from Lawrence Ordnance in Sydney for 3.50AUD. I'll get them in a day or so, I'll let you know what they are like. Supposed to be new.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Yeah, thats each :-(

[rocklock]

Impetus of this thread made me get the long (31" bbl.) rifle out and take it to the range yesterday. Markings on this gun are VKT, D, serial # in the 16,000 range, 1941, and boxed SA all on the barrel shank.

26Charlie,

I've got your Nagants older brother...1941 VKT, SN in the 9000 range.

Shoots like a champ.

[mike in co]

ok 2 39's...one vkt 1970,one1940's ??, ONE 91/30 1941 vkt 29" bbl and they all shoot like champs from a bench, but cannot go prone without getting nailed in the cheek with those stocks........

[Four Fingers of Death]

I think the stocks were designed to give Russian soldiers a whack so that they wouldn't fall asleep in mega sub zero temps :-)

[StarMetal]

Well since yall are talking about Finn39's. Now I have to tell you that I scoped it with a 2.5x8 compact scope with a very neat Choate scope mount. Anyways...I thought the rifle was kind of heavy without a scope so I weighted with as is now with scope and the booger weighs 10.75 pounds. [smilie=b: Dang, that's heavy I think for a bolt rifle. Well maybe not concidering it's just about got a heavy varmint style barrel on it . I do like this rifle though.

Joe

[45 2.1]

45:

Great!, and many thanks in advance. Have you figured out yet what that short step on the base of the #457102 bullet is for? Too short for a gas-check, and they hadn't been invented yet when that bullet was designed - in or before 1897 - but it seems to be present in all of these moulds, and can be seen in the photo in the 1973 Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" (also posted on CASTPICS). It'd be interesting to see how it looks on a fired, recovered bullet.

Doug

Doug, your welcome. Jumptrap said he gaschecked that shank. There is some evidence that Barlow & Hudson didn't invent the gas check. I've read somewhere in the dim past that the English had something like it at least ten years before them. The English were great experimenters.

[Jumptrap]

Doug, your welcome. Jumptrap said he gaschecked that shank. There is some evidence that Barlow & Hudson didn't invent the gas check. I've read somewhere in the dim past that the English had something like it at least ten years before them. The English were great experimenters.

I sure did! I haven't shot any of them yet, but a Hornady check will indeed crimp on. If that mold belonged to me, I'd have some expert machinist recut that 'step' to a proper depth for gas check. No, I don't know where I'd find such a person. Beagle guards his machinist with the jealousy of a devoted lover and I've been snubbed by the others I know. But, rattle enough change under the right guys nose and you can anything done.

[floodgate]

45-2.1:

I goofed! That #457102 is not an early Barlow bullet; the cherry number was "borrowed" from an older #429102 short-range hollow-base bullet for the .44-40, dropped in 1904. The #457102 is a later design, and does not turn up until the 1958 First Edition "Handbook of Cast Bullets" (where it is listed, but not illustrated). It doesn't show up in any of the Handbooks or Annual Catalogs except for the photo in the 1973 Second Edition (shown on CASTPICS), so must have been a "special". But there seem to be a few of them around.

Yes, there were earlier gas checks, but Barlow did patent it (No. 847,149, March 12, 1907), though his original design was a weird one, with little teeth on the rim to bite the bullet shank, and a domed base - see below.

Jumptrap:

OK, glad to hear that it will take a Hornady GC. But I doubt even our resident "expert machinist" would volunteer to bore the lower band smaller to extend the shank.

floodgate

[Jumptrap]

45-2.1:


Jumptrap:

OK, glad to hear that it will take a Hornady GC. But I doubt even our resident "expert machinist" would volunteer to bore the lower band smaller to extend the shank.

floodgate

Hehe! Bore it smaller...too funny! I have watched the magic of a mig welder with fine wire and I think that lower band groove could be filled and then milled out to specs. Worth it? Maybe not, but if I had the machinery and talent, you can rest assured I'd give it a shot.

[Four Fingers of Death]

XBT:

You're right, the M39 I got a few weeks ago has a MUCH better trigger than my two Mosins (Russian M91/30 and Romanian M44); they seem to have angled the mating surfaces on the trigger and striker head, where the Russkies are square. I recently got a flier from Num-'n'-Rich (Numrich / Gun Parts Corp. for the "newbies") that offers a "Match Grade Anti-Friction Ball Trigger" for the M-N's (ITEM#932140), at $69.95 - a little too rich for my blood, but tempting, all the same.

Does anyone know where I can get a half-dozen of the GOOD, brass M-N stripper clips? The (stainless?)-steel ones that come with the surplus ammo are too thick-walled and too stiff to load from in any of my three rifles. TIA.

floodgate

The clips arrived today, they are bright steel, I can't imagine that any stainless would come out of Russia. I hope these fit my rifle. I'll get my money back from the shop, no prob, but I'd rather have clips that work.

[26Charlie]

Have got both kinds of clips, & they both work - but only have 2 of each, not a representative sample.

Am measuring barrel length the old way - stick a rod down the bore to the breech face, hold thumbnail at muzzle, measure the length concealed. Long barreled Finn M-N measures 31.5", M39 Finn M-N measures 27".

Sights on the M39 are really great - U-notch rear tangent sight, solid square post front adjustable for windage with two opposing screws. Solid ears protect both front and rear. These are the best open sights I know of.

Magazine prevents the round below the bolt from dragging on the bolt - it is held back until the bolt is turned down to lock. Feeding is thus slick, and I have never had a rim-over-rim jam. This is the neatest five-shot magazine I know of for rimmed cartridges (but I have never owned a Krag).

[floodgate]

Mick:

"I can't imagine that any stainless would come out of Russia."

They used it for false teeth for years, so they must have had it.

Thanks for the thought; I've got a couple of other sources working on the brass ones. As I said, the heavy steel ones will just barely wedge into the clip slots of my three M-N's, and are so stiff it's a real thumb-buster to slide them into the magazine. I hope yours work out better.

Doug

[StarMetal]

It's amazing how much ammo the Russians made for the Mosins and today it's hard to find an original clip. The main thing wrong with aftermarket clips today is that they aren't spring tempered and lose their set after one use. The bullest fall out of them. They don't fit the guns right and some are way too stiff to push the bullets out.

Joe

[floodgate]

It's amazing how much ammo the Russians made for the Mosins and today it's hard to find an original clip. The main thing wrong with aftermarket clips today is that they aren't spring tempered and lose their set after one use. The bullest fall out of them. They don't fit the guns right and some are way too stiff to push the bullets out.

Joe

Joe:

"The BULLETS fall out of them...too stiff to push the BULLETS out..."!

GEEZ, they've even got US doing it (saying "bullets" for "cartridges")! Thank Goodness for BOOLITS!!

Doug

[StarMetal]

Doug,

Let me clarify that some hhahahaa. When new they are very stiff, hard to load the rifle with. After one use, I guess because they don't have a spring temper like the original Russian ones, they become loose and the cartridges sometimes fall out.

Joe

[floodgate]

Joe:

The steel clips I have start stiff, and STAY stiff; they are also 'way too heavy gauge metal, so there is not enough space in the clip slot for them to open and let the CARTRIDGES (OK???) slide through. If it was in just one rifle, I'd open up its clip slot, but with all three... No way!

Doug

[StarMetal]

Doug,

Gotcha now. I guess there are so many different companies making them that there isn't a guarantee on metal gauge that they are made from. My best friend picked up a whole box of new ones for me and basically they're useless except to hold five rounds together, then I put them in a big box. I'll tell you Doug, my Yugo SKS doesn't lend itself to the stripper clip unloading smoothly. Now I'm positive the stripper clips for SKS's are indeed surplus real ones..mainly from China.

Joe

P.S. PM me with your address and I'll send you a few of mine.

[floodgate]

Joe:

Thanks much for the offer, but I think I've got some of the original brass ones en-route. But I'll keep you in mind just in case.

Doug

[Four Fingers of Death]

Sounds like a bit of work for a few thin files.

[Frank46]

Joe, take some silicon carbide paper and polish the parkerizing off the sks strippers. It may work. I did this on some 303 strippers on the inside to remove the burrs caused by the stamping and forming operations. Works really slick. May work for you. Frank