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delmar
03-24-2009, 06:38 AM
I have started to read a bit about paper patching, but a lot of the threads seem to start out with a lot of information about how to and don't seem to start with why to. So, my question is ... What are the main reasons for paper patching?

pdawg_shooter
03-24-2009, 08:09 AM
With paper patching you can get results equal to, or in some cases better than, jacketed loads. With paper you can load pure lead up to around 2200fps for a top performing hunting load. An alloy of 12.0/12.5 BHN can go to 2600fps or so and 16.0 to 3000fps or better. Try that with a naked bullet.

docone31
03-24-2009, 09:44 AM
Ditto, especially on the better performance than jacketeds.

jh45gun
03-24-2009, 12:23 PM
So what is the BHN again for WW? Just wondering how fast you can push WW bullets as WW is all I use for my cast bullets except I use pure lead for my Muzzle Loader projectiles.

pdawg_shooter
03-24-2009, 01:10 PM
WWs, after you let them age for a week or so will go 10.0/12.5 or so. They do vary a lot. If you water drop or heat treat them they will go over 25. No top end for that!

Maven
03-24-2009, 03:02 PM
An additional reason is curiosity and the love of experimentation. Then too, and I admit this is a bit of a reach,, you may have an idle or unused mold in your collection that casts too small for any of your rifles, but not so small that it couldn't be used to cast bullets that you can paper patch to fit at least one of your rifles.

delmar
03-24-2009, 08:26 PM
does paper patch make "leading" a non issue?

docone31
03-24-2009, 08:32 PM
It gets the lead out.

delmar
03-24-2009, 08:50 PM
It gets the lead out.

My only weapon is a .45 acp
How practical would it be to get some 44 bullets, paper patch them, and fire a few when lead starts to show up in my barrel?

Come to think of it, I might even play with paper patching my glue stick bullets!
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=17577&page=8

docone31
03-24-2009, 08:55 PM
I do not believe it would be practical at all.
I use jacketeds in this application.

delmar
03-24-2009, 09:05 PM
I do not believe it would be practical at all.
I use jacketeds in this application.

I know I'm asking question out of ignorance, but why would it not be practical? Do jacketed bullets get the lead out? Or do you mean to say that you would not recommend using lead bullets in a .45 acp?

bcp477
03-24-2009, 09:42 PM
There are at least a couple of reasons why this would not be practical. One, paper-patched cartridges tend not to be completely compatible with auto-loading firearms (the patches tend to be damaged by movement in the magazine and feeding, etc.). Two, it isn't as simple as wrapping paper around a bullet....and loading it into a cartridge. The final diameter of the patched bullet needs to be precisely right. For the majority of guns, the final diameter should be somewhere in the range of groove diameter to .001" over that, for best results (and this varies somewhat - gun to gun). So, paper-patchers start with bullets undersized for the barrel, which allows for the thickness of the paper used. Simply wrapping a .45 bullet would result in an OVER-sized projectile...and you'd get no accuracy. As for the barrel polishing aspects of paper patches (which do help to remove fouling and polish the bore)....it is not worth it to adopt paper- patching, with all of the steps and experimentation involved....just to clean your bore. Just clean your bore the old-fashioned way. There is no problem with shooting cast (plain lead) bullets in your .45 ACP...ones of the right design and weight. Loads for the .45 ACP using un-jacketed bullets are pretty slow, comparatively speaking (heck, the standard 230 gr. ball military load, using jacketed bullets, was only about 900 fps, anyway). You certainly can find a load, using suitable cast bullets, that will not lead your bore....if shooting cast (un-jacketed) bullets is what you're after.

By the way, ".44" bullets, if you mean handgun bullets, are not .44" in diameter. I believe that the standard dia. for these is something like .430" (someone correct me if I am off on that - handguns are not my area of interest). Your .45 ACP fires bullets of about .458" in dia., in actuality. That is another technical aspect that you'd have to get into, if you chose to try paper-patching.

delmar
03-24-2009, 09:59 PM
There are at least a couple of reasons why this would not be practical. One, paper-patched cartridges tend not to be completely compatible with auto-loading firearms (the patches tend to be damaged by movement in the magazine and feeding, etc.). I see.
Two, it isn't as simple as wrapping paper around a bullet....and loading it into a cartridge. The final diameter of the patched bullet needs to be precisely right. Yes, that is why I asked about paper patching .44 bullets for the .45
For the majority of guns, the final diameter should be somewhere in the range of groove diameter to .001" over that, for best results (and this varies somewhat - gun to gun). So, paper-patchers start with bullets undersized for the barrel, which allows for the thickness of the paper used. Simply wrapping a .45 bullet would result in an OVER-sized projectile...and you'd get no accuracy. As for the barrel polishing aspects of paper patches (which do help to remove fouling and polish the bore)....it is not worth it to adopt paper- patching, with all of the steps and experimentation involved....just to clean your bore. Just clean your bore the old-fashioned way. There is no problem with shooting cast (plain lead) bullets in your .45 ACP...ones of the right design and weight. Loads for the .45 ACP using un-jacketed bullets are pretty slow, comparatively speaking (heck, the standard 230 gr. ball military load, using jacketed bullets, was only about 900 fps, anyway). You certainly can find a load, using suitable cast bullets, that will not lead your bore....if shooting cast (un-jacketed) bullets is what you're after.It might be what I'm after. That's why I'm asking all kinds of questions. I hope I'm not being too annoying!

docone31
03-24-2009, 10:05 PM
My experience with ACP, they are picky on OAL, and casting shape.
My experience with paper patching, you can load them through a magazine. I do it with my rifles. I go slowly on loading though. The cycleing speed of the ACP, paper on the outside of the casting can cause issues without all the sizing, etc.
Paper patching is an art. Here there are two distinct schools. That is without the differences between black powder and smokeless.
If it were a revolver, I would say it might be worth the try. However, not just for scrubbing the barrel. Choreboy, Hoppes #9 and some elbow grease does real well.
My patched loads, after deleading the bore, did indeed get the rest out. It was a slow process though. When I had fouling in the barrel, it was just a waste of paper and time. I had to physically remove the residual.
Once the bore is "shiney", it is remarkebly easy to clean it after firing paper. I also highly reccomend paper patching in rifles. Once I tried it, I was hooked. However, I spent months "dialing" it in. If I had not been given an entrance on my calibers, I would still be thinking on it today.
With my ACPs, and revolvers, I make my lube, cast really hard castings that are sized to fit. I get no leading at the range. I got my wife a RaceGun, and she is still "weak handed" with it. She fires a lot at a time. Stove pipes, jams, etc. She is getting better. The loads do not lead when they fire though. When I fire it, I get no issues. She is learning to control the pistol.
In my opinion, leading is a combination of sizing and lube. I would look at that for the ACP definately before attempting patching for it.
I fire water dropped wheel weight, sized at .451, 10gns of Blue Dot. Dirty as all get out, cleans right up. No leading.

jh45gun
03-24-2009, 11:47 PM
WWs, after you let them age for a week or so will go 10.0/12.5 or so. They do vary a lot. If you water drop or heat treat them they will go over 25. No top end for that!

I would keep them air cooled

delmar
03-26-2009, 05:45 PM
My experience with ACP, they are picky on OAL, and casting shape.
My experience with paper patching, you can load them through a magazine. I do it with my rifles. I go slowly on loading though. The cycleing speed of the ACP, paper on the outside of the casting can cause issues without all the sizing, etc.
Paper patching is an art. Here there are two distinct schools. That is without the differences between black powder and smokeless.
If it were a revolver, I would say it might be worth the try. However, not just for scrubbing the barrel. Choreboy, Hoppes #9 and some elbow grease does real well.
My patched loads, after deleading the bore, did indeed get the rest out. It was a slow process though. When I had fouling in the barrel, it was just a waste of paper and time. I had to physically remove the residual.
Once the bore is "shiney", it is remarkebly easy to clean it after firing paper. I also highly reccomend paper patching in rifles. Once I tried it, I was hooked. However, I spent months "dialing" it in. If I had not been given an entrance on my calibers, I would still be thinking on it today.
With my ACPs, and revolvers, I make my lube, cast really hard castings that are sized to fit. I get no leading at the range. I got my wife a RaceGun, and she is still "weak handed" with it. She fires a lot at a time. Stove pipes, jams, etc. She is getting better. The loads do not lead when they fire though. When I fire it, I get no issues. She is learning to control the pistol.
In my opinion, leading is a combination of sizing and lube. I would look at that for the ACP definately before attempting patching for it.
I fire water dropped wheel weight, sized at .451, 10gns of Blue Dot. Dirty as all get out, cleans right up. No leading.

Does being pick about OAL make it hard to paper patch? That is to say if you paper patch is it hard to be precise on OAL?

docone31
03-26-2009, 06:04 PM
No. You can control patched castings as any other.

Spector
03-26-2009, 10:19 PM
I have been paper patching for my Glock 31/30 for several months now.

I have had my best luck using the Lee 230 grain trucated cone bullet. I drop them into water from the mold. It is easy patch them when I use Albanene paper, but it is difficult to locate and I want to find another paper to use. I have tried a cheaper tracing paper I got at Office Depot. It works, but is not as tough a paper as I'd like.

I tried teflon tape, but it tore up trying to load it in the case. I tried to pick the remnants of the tape off the bullet and it was a real fight. I don't think it would release well from the bullet anyway even it it had held up. I was just looking for something waterproof.

I size the lead bullet to .451''. Patch it and fold the paper under the bullet. I do not twist a tail. I roll the wet bullet across a burner on our ceramic top stove until it is dry. I twist the base of the bullet on the burner and it really flattens the folded under patch. Air drying overnight may be just as good, but I'm always impatient. Then I apply Johnson Paste Wax to the patch and dry them again. Then I push them through a Lee .452'' sizing die.

I have been using WCC cases, WIN primers and 5.7 grains of WIN 231. They feed fine in my Glock. No leading.

Run the paper down the nose far enough so you don't have problems feeding the bullet from the magazine into the chamber. I have not had one misfeed in close to 100 rounds. It gets decent accuracy at 25 yards.

I fired a lead/tin soft bullet paper patched into milk jugs of water. It was from a Lyman mould I believe the fellow sent it off to have hollow pointed. It was around 200 grains. It stopped in the 4th jug and the petals broke off the bullet when it mushroomed. Think I need a slightly harder bullet or a slower velocity. NO leading though.

The biggest problem I see is the vulnerability of the paper patch to water. I fall down a lot when I wade fish so I don't think I'll carry a paper patched self-defence load in the summer months, but in the winter months I think it would work fine with a soft lead hollow point bullet.

I'm wanting to try it with the Lee 255 grain RF bullet. I've fired a lot of those through my Glock and they feed well. I'd like to hollow point a few of them and try to get them down to around 235 grains.

The trucated cone bullet was easier to patch than the round nose hollow point for some reason and the trucated cone bullet is the tumble lube design.

I have more experimenting to do later, but so far I am satisfied with my efforts. I'm wanting to try some soft lead sized at .454''. I slugged the throat on my Glock............Mike

delmar
03-27-2009, 11:06 PM
I believe these might well be the worlds first paper patch plastic bullets!

The second photo shows what they look like when they come out of my bullet trap. I peeled the other two to show how well the bullet comes through the process.

By the way... Boy is my barrel clean!

docone31
03-27-2009, 11:16 PM
Now, that is amazing!
I love it.

delmar
03-28-2009, 05:34 AM
Now that I have figured out that I can paper patch them and still fit them in a .45 shell, I may have to start adding powder to the mix, to see what kind of velocity I can get out of them.

1874Sharps
04-22-2009, 09:40 PM
Paper patch bullets -- they are the bullets that conjure images of buffalo hunters of the 1870s “rolling their own” in camp after a day of shooting. This technology is described in patents as early as 1870 and is still a great technology. In fact, all the major armies of the world of that era with the exception of the US used paper patch bullets in their ammunition. The Sharps Rifle Co. back in the day sold mostly paper patch ammo. There was good reason for this wide-spread use.

Paper patch bullets offer several advantages over comparable conventional grease groove bullets:

1. Paper patch bullets have smooth sides and therefore have a higher ballistic coefficient.

2. Paper patch bullets generally produce lower chamber pressures than grease grooved bullets of equal weight.

3. The paper patch polishes and burnishes the bore of the rifle removing tool marks and making clean-up (especially when shooting with black powder) much easier.

4. Bullets may be rolled with thinner or thicker paper, thus allowing the hand loader to custom fit the bullet to a non-standard bore, as is often found in antique rifles such as the 1873 Springfield.

I have a Lee custom made 45 Caliber 520 grain custom paper patch mold. Designed as a black powder bullet, it has proved to be accurate with smokeless as well.

I also have a custom Lee 30 caliber hybrid paper patch gas check bullet mold. This bullet has been quite remarkable. Wrapped with a special high strength paper it has given 2500 fps velocity, 1.5 MOA accuracy and expansion to over 60 caliber with 84% weight retention in wet phonebook media (almost identical balistic results were obtained with a 30 caliber Speer HotCor shot side by side). One customer (Ronnie) reported 2650 fps out of his Tikka 30-06 (chronographed) with 2 MOA accuracy. With these numbers, who can argue against paper patching?

docone31
04-23-2009, 06:52 PM
Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine my .303 British, or .308s would perform like they do with paper!
I cast with my mystery alloy, lots of zinc, some lead I think, mainly it melts in my Lee Pot. I size em, wrap em, and go to town!!! Clean bore, great groups. I am indeed a believer.
Great disertation on paper patching. Well done.
Why paper patch?
It works.

Black Wolf
04-27-2009, 08:13 AM
So if I may summarize the benefits:

1. It cleans and burnishes the bore for ease of cleaning
2. The ability to shoot faster loads, as high as jacketed bullets in some cases
3. Custom fitting the diameter of the bullet to your rifle (pretty handy in my Enfield that has a .314 groove dia., and my mold is .312.
4. No need for gas checks (not sure if this is applies to all velocities or not)

Does the bullet that you PP have to be a smooth sided (no lube grooves)?
Do you lube the PP bullet if it has lube grooves, like you'd normally do, then PP?, or lube the bullet on the outside of the paper?

A tutorial would be very handy on this subject - either here or on YouTube.

docone31
04-27-2009, 09:09 AM
The boolitts I use, are the LEE C312/185R, sized to .308, then wrapped. It is a gas check mold, and I do not use a gas check.
I do not lube the prime casting before wrapping, nor do I lube the patched casting other than a little wax to keep the sizing die from tearing the wrap on sizing.
I use dish soap for sizing my casting as it washes off very easily.
In terms of a tutorial, this entire page of threads is a literal tutorial. I started many threads on .30s, .303 British loads with paper. The grey smoke folks, also have good tutorials in their threads.
There is a difference between smokeless loads and patching, and grey smoke loads and patching. The characteristics are different.
When I first learned to patch, I had read several books. The techniques, although similiar, are not the same as what I do.
The main thing, ask questions.
The road I took, I made error after error. I learned more from that than if I had just gotten results right out of the gate.
Hang in there, it is worth it.