Lead Wire Extruding

[7of7]

I am in Lynnwood WA,... and was wondering if anyone in the area extrudes their own wire... and would be interested in going in on a purchase of some lead to extrude?
The company is in Tacoma, for the lead. I would pick it up and mold it into billets to fit whatever equipment...

[barryjyoung]

Hello:

I started welding up a wire extruder this very day. I still need to make the dies. Also need to make a larger swaging press than my little Swag-O-Matic and some swaging dies as well.

I realize it has been more than three years since you posted, but thought you might still be around. I am from South Everett, but now live in Tacoma.

Hope to hear from you.

Barry Young

[DukeInFlorida]

Most of the real serious lead wire extruders use dead soft (pure) lead, or something close. Range lead would perhaps even work as long as the % of cast bullets in it was low enough.

And, they use a beam type hydraulic press to get enough tonnage to make it work efficiently. Or, a log splitter type hydraulic ram. In any event, it;s a LOT of pressure to work the wire easily. Coils store easily, and those require a bigger "billet" of lead to begin with. Small bullet sized billets are OK for the small extruders, which can be done on a Rockchucker type press. But for coiled lead wire, you really need a billet of 1-2 pounds per, or larger. It takes a 25+ pound chunk of lead to make a 25 pound coil of lead wire.

http://www.harborfreight.com/20-ton-shop-press-32879.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_14133.jpg

http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/leadwire25lbspool.htm
http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/tfqy4.mpkx6/v/vspfiles/photos/LeadWire25lbSpool-2.jpg

[taminsong]

I just wish there will be some pics while making the lead coil.

[Salmon-boy]

No kidding eh? There are some cool videos on youtube, this is my favorite: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLjebsEb1g

Not quite practical for the backyard when you need a lift to load the billet..

I've done some quick math and for less than 20 tons, the practical billet should be .75"x3". I'm hoping to have my dies completed by early July. {edit} Specifically, for .185" wire on a 12 ton press a billet of that size should extrude without too much effort. Not the Should and other non-specifics.{edit}

Not sure what I'm going to do for a billet mould yet, but have a couple of thoughts and just need to sit down with some wood to make patterns for casting in aluminum. I am currently searching for a source of locating buttons for each half of the mould.. I REALLY need to think about feed rate - this might be a dipper instead of sprue plate/pour mould.. Definitely not something to fill with a drip-o-matic..

[alfloyd]

This is what I made to cast a billet for my lead wire extruding with my 20 ton shop press.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=450&pictureid=3030

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=450&pictureid=3024

I fill it with my Lee 20 lb pot.

It is .750 inch in dia and 3 inch long. Weighs 7 oz. Makes a 40 inch peice of .187 dia wire. You could mount handles on it to make it faster. I have been thinking about mounting a old set of welding vice-grips as a set of handles.

Lafaun

[runfiverun]

vice grips would work.
if that mold is steel you could weld some old pliars and add a set of wood grips to them or even a set of lee 6 cav handles to it.

[deltaenterprizes]

That wire is squirting like toothpaste!

afloyd, my mold is similar, ingot is 6'' long, 1'' in dia and weighs over a pound.

[Lizard333]

I looked on eBay. Couldn't find that 400 ton press. Looking to buy 2 ;). That way I would have a spare. The press is HUGE!!

[DukeInFlorida]

I'm seeing the indications in that video, Chuck, that they pre-heated the billet. That will have the effect of increasing the usuable billet size. Something to think about.

If I weren't still working on moving, I'd be getting a used press, and trying some billet extruding.

I may also heat some cast boolits that I currently use as mini-billets, and see if that reduces pressures in Lafaun's die.

I'm still looking for a way to put a taper in the top of the die. It needs a transition angle from the .432" diameter to the .187" diameter. I have no way to hold the die true while cutting a taper with a drill bit.

[Salmon-boy]

Lafaun, thats pretty much exactly what I was thinking of but in Aluminum and with a sprue plate. I suppose if I pour short like you have there, I won't have to deal with the button on top. When you're extruding, do you get any voids in the wire at the billet transition? If not, I will re-think needing to have a square cylinder.. BTW, the dies you sent look amazing. I can't wait to get them onto a press!

Duke, yes heating the billet and a smaller transition angle will lower the force needed to extrude lead. I've only found pressure and temperature information for Aluminum extrusion, but the concept is true for all solids. I may add an electric heater band later, but for now I'm trying to keep things simple.

[shooterg]

Put them welding gloves on, start extruding while that billet is still really warm ?

[deltaenterprizes]

A friend and member here coated the lead ingots in a high temp oil and boiled the ingots to bring them up to 212*.

[alfloyd]

The billet mold I made is made from aluminum. It was easier to turn on the lathe.

The extrusion die still gets hot all by it's self when I am extruding lead into wire.
I do not get a void at the billet junction MOST of the time. If I put too much lube on the billet, then I get a void.

Lafaun

[barryjyoung]

I've done some quick math and for less than 20 tons, the practical billet should be .75"x3".

At what lead temperature? At what wire diameter? Are we seeing a trend here? This is the problem with doing some quick math. Something always gets left out when shortcuts are taken. I have done extensive math and my billet size will use less than half my available force.

Good luck on your diemaking.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

Nice work on the billet mold. Vise grips sound like a viable option.

Good luck

Barry

[barryjyoung]

That wire is squirting like toothpaste!

afloyd, my mold is similar, ingot is 6'' long, 1'' in dia and weighs over a pound.

Hi Deltaenterprizes, how much force are you using? 20 Ton? 40?

Thank you

Barry

[barryjyoung]

So from responses above it seems that none of you are using the extrusion die to cast the billets. I am surprised to hear this as if you do, the billet will only have to be heated once, during casting. If you cast a loose billet, it will have to be heated again if it extrudes better at higher than ambient temperature.

I will post a youtube video as soon as I have the extruder finished.

Thank you to all who responded to me. Thank you also to those who just plain posted.

Barry

[deltaenterprizes]

Hi Deltaenterprizes, how much force are you using? 20 Ton? 40?

Thank you

Barry

20 ton Harbor Freight air over hydraulic in a NAPA 20 ton press

[Salmon-boy]

Lafaun, I saw the end was center drilled but wasn't paying too much attention to the surface. I like the idea of locking pliers for welding. Looks like it might be time for me to drag out the foundry!

Barry, I get you on the quick math. I've DEFINITELY missed some things as I have no temperature/pressure data on lead. The quick math was more of a WAG to see if I needed a 20 ton or could do it with a 12 ton press for extruding .185 wire for .223 swaging.

The idea of casting IN the die is awesome and very efficient. I may have to do that as my soft range lead is still quite a bit harder than dead soft. I am a little concerned about the billet cooling too much and having no lube might cause it to seize at the pressure I'm using. I was also thinking of casting and storing billets for later.

One thing to remember, the closer you get to the melting point of the lead, the less consistent the grain structure of the extruded wire will be. If you get too hot, the pressure will essentially be re-melting the lead, turning your die into a continuous caster. In principle, you'll have density variations between sections. The real question is could that be as much as 1/10 of a grain? I just don't want to go there without having the info (or data to do the correct math).

[alfloyd]

I started with an air over hyd 12 ton shop press to extrude lead wire with my dies.
It was just barely big enought to do the job, if I heated the billet.
I bent the press, so I got a 20 ton air over hyd shop press now.
It works a lot better.

I cast a lot of billets and then extrude wire. I use swage lube on the billets to make it easier.

Lafaun

[Salmon-boy]

Well, at least I haven't bought the press yet.. <sigh>

[barryjyoung]

Hi Chuck:

Because the cast in die variety requires an inverted die where the orifice is driven through the lead rather than the piston putting pressure on the billet which then presses against the walls of the die creating friction, FAR less pressure is required to extrude the lead. There is no way to lubricate an inverted die anyway.

Thank you.

Barry

[tenx]

made an extruder using a 20 ton harbor freight arbor press, found it on sale for around $150.
used a piece of shelby tubing for the die body, 1 3/16" id, the ram was from a discarded hyd cylinder, drilled a hole thru the arbor press ram sideways and thru the piston (discarded hyd cylinder piston) sideways also and 2 small steel links to link them together. this allows the ram/piston to be move out of the way for access for another lead slug. used a thickwalled piece of chrome plated brass tailstock from a sink drain for a core mold. found a spare socket that was a snug fit on the tube and welded up the square drive and mounted on a metal plate. sprayed the insides with a moly chain lube and the lead cores don't stick. used a grade 8 bolt head ground to fit inside the end of the shelby tubing as a bleeder orrifice and welded it into place. drilled the hole 3/16". went to a harbor freight 20 ton air over hydraulic press for the swaging power. a whole bunch easier than arm power. use a propane torch on the thick walled shelby tubing to warm things up a bit. want to eventually use a small toaster oven to preheat the lead billets to 160-180 degrees or so. but bottom line is it craps out lead wire like nobodys buisness. don't have any issues withdrawing the ram from the shelby tubing or it getting stuck but also have two small hydraulic jacks to force the ram up if need be. i think that since the hyd cyl ram is made of some fairly hard tough metal and that protects it from mushrooming or deforming under pressure. haven't had to use the small hyd jacks yet. went thru several concepts but this one works the best so far.

[alfloyd]

PICTURES

Lafaun

[barryjyoung]

Hey Ten X, lemme see it.

No further progress on the extruder, life just sort of got in the way. I am on vacation now for a month, so let's see if I can get some pics and progress.

Problem is, do I work on this, or on the new punch press I found in the thrift store today for,,,get this,,,,$25.00. Wooo hoo!, I hope I done good.

Pictures tomorrow.

Barry

[ronaldod]

Are there any pictures of an lead extruder die ?

I'm also thinking to make a extruder with a 20 ton press but i'm concerned that it all get stuck after you extruded the wire or is that not happening ?

[chuckbuster]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=168443

Uses .432dia bullets and your Rockchucker or similar press. Low volume perhaps but practical for non-commercial users.

Kevin

[ronaldod]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=168443

Uses .432dia bullets and your Rockchucker or similar press. Low volume perhaps but practical for non-commercial users.

Kevin

Tanx for the offer but you stated no shipping abroad and im living in the Netherlands. So i had skip that offer.
Or if you make an exception and could adapt one for a corbin swage csp-1 i would be a happy one but the corbins press has just a very limited stroke in swage mode.

[Red River Rick]

Ronaldod:

Here's a few pics of a Lead Extrusion Die used in the Corbin Hydro Press. If you have the right equipment and access to heat treating facilities, you can make anything you want.

Good Luck!

RRR

[ronaldod]

Thanks for sharing these pictures. I will try to do some extrapolation on these and going to have fun with mine 20 ton press.

[Spanners]

Rick made me a set of dies as pictured in his post.
Quality was A1++++
I hope to FINALLY use them when I get home from work in a month

[ronaldod]

Are these for sale ?
Would be very interested to buy one.

[Red River Rick]

Are these for sale ?
Would be very interested to buy one.

Ronaldod:

They are. Send me a PM

RRR

[ronaldod]

Sended a pm a week ago but no responce yet

[sprinkintime]

Ronaldod:

Here's a few pics of a Lead Extrusion Die used in the Corbin Hydro Press. If you have the right equipment and access to heat treating facilities, you can make anything you want.

Good Luck!

RRR

Rick, I see that you are using 4340 for your dies, can you tell me what is the differance in the machining of that compared to 0-1, such a finish, machine ability, etc.
Thanks, sprinkintime

[BLASTER62]

Rick: Is that a adaptor whith a lock pin on your bottom punch?

[ronaldod]

Rick: pm me the details for buying that nice piece of equipment

[Ellisfamilyokc]

Anyone extruding much larger lead wire? I'm thinking like .38" for use in .40 jackets. It may just be easier to cast then swage, but the thought of lead wire makes all kinds of sense to me.
How about extruding WW alloy? Is it just too hard?

[DukeInFlorida]

Only part of the problem is the hardness of that alloy for extruding purposes.
The biggest problem rests with the swaging of that alloy as a core. Much too hard for good swaging flow inside the brass case jacket.
Pure lead, or something close to it, is best for swaging into cores.


Anyone extruding much larger lead wire? I'm thinking like .38" for use in .40 jackets. It may just be easier to cast then swage, but the thought of lead wire makes all kinds of sense to me.
How about extruding WW alloy? Is it just too hard?

[Ellisfamilyokc]

Thanks for the reply!

[ronaldod]

As somewhere the communication with RRR went into the darkness i'm looking for an other who can make a leadwire extruder.
Tanx in advance.

[DukeInFlorida]

You might check in with Chuckbuster. I know he's doing some custom extrusion dies at this time.


[

As somewhere the communication with RRR went into the darkness i'm looking for an other who can make a leadwire extruder.
Tanx in advance.