making 357 jackets from 223 cases

[kawalekm]

I while back I was talking with BT about making 357 jackets from a fired .223 case. Finally got it done. Stopped for a while because I broke my RockChucker! Get the new one in the mail last week and got around to finishing. I tried doing it two ways. To make three jackets from one case I first belled the mouth of the .223 case out to .32 caliber so the outside diameter was almost .35. I was able to make 3 rather short jackets, but the amount of work was ridiculous and I would do it again only if stranded on a desert island.

It was light work though to get two nice jackets from a case with minimal effort.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/223caseto357jackets.jpg
I cut the neck off the case with a dremil so the shoulder would become the base of bullet #1. I then trimmed the casehead down to 0.9" and used that to make a heavy 35 caliber rifle bullet. I formed both in CH101 .357 dies. The larger bullet is 210 grains and would be a great load for a 35 Whelen or Winchester (got to go shopping now). The second (top) bullet is a 155 grain soft point. Look closely at the base of that bullet on the far right. You can see where the case shoulder folded under to form the base of the bullet, but it is not totally enclosed. You have about 0.185" of exposed lead at the base. Here's a question for all of you. I don't know if it will be safe to fire an open based bullet with a soft point. I suspect the core could be blown out the barrel, leaving the jacket lodged in the barrel. Thought I would ask about personal experiences before trying to shoot these myself.
Michael

PS. Anyone here have a left-handed 35 Whelen they want to get rid of?

[BT Sniper]

Dang it Michael,

You did it again. Nice work and great explanations with pics. I'm starting to run short on the ideas. Your so quick to perfect them. When are you going to make some fancy riffle bullets like .308 or smaller is all I got left for ideas.

The second bullet from the top of the cut off case is EXACTLY the same as the .429 bullets I have shot threw my AMP. I recovered bullets that showed no signs of any change between the jacket and core and I didn't even have a crimp grove on the bullet which is sure to hold it together some what. It looks as though I had about the same % of lead exposed at base and these bullet were among the most accurate I have shot threw my gun. I may have some tips for you to make it a tighter seel around the base. Though I was shooting these at 1300 fps and you may be pushing those 155s at a faster speed. I know little but there is some formula as to the friction of the jacket to the barrel vs. size of bullet vs. fps. Start slow stand behind a tree if need be and see what happens.

Absolutly Awsome work. I remember the pic you posted of your .429 from 40S&W a year ago and that was all it took to get me hooked. I'm sure this .357 bullet will do the same for someone else as well.

So are you telling us you need a new gun to shoot these bullets from. That seems like the best excuse to buy a new gun I can think of. So how about some 50 BMG bullets:)

I'm going to follow in your foot steps and make some of these bullets too just have to get the dies and lots of .223 brass.

Do you have a .17 cal sizing die to neck down the .223 case first? This would make for a smaller amount of lead exposed, also try leaving just a fraction of the neck on the case see if this folds over any better for you. I'll bet a .17 sizing die wouldn't cost that much and would cure any doubts you may have about the jacket holding on.

As for a next project I'll have to see what I can think up.

Let us know how they shoot and what is your next project?

Brian

[HeavyMetal]

I read some where years ago that some writer did have so bullets the were exposed lead on both ends leave a jacket in the bore!

I think he had the fear of this in him and he was checking the bore after each shot was fired.

I do not recall him many he fired before he had a blockage noe do I remember the mag the article was in.

I will suggest that a cunnaluring tool might put a heavier enough "crimp" on the bullets to hold them but if I was doing this I think I'd figure a way to close off the bullet base with a gas check or some other gilded metal "cup".

Great idea by the way!

[BT Sniper]

Isn't the gas pressures pushing equally on the rounded jacket as it is on the core?
I have seen factory bullets in this style as well.

[Buckshot]

Isn't the gas pressures pushing equally on the rounded jacket as it is on the core?
I have seen factory bullets in this style as well.

............The gas IS pushing equally on both the exposed core and the jacket, however these two entities are not experiencing the same friction as they travel up the barrel. Also, there is more core surface exposed so the core sees more total pressure. As mentioned, an interlocking cannelure might help.

...............Buckshot

[bohica2xo]

5.56 brass is pretty dear right now, no sense cutting it up for 35 Whelen bullets... especially with all of the 9mm scrap on the deck.

I would have serious reservations about shooting that bullet on the right. Jacket stripping is a very real possibility with that much core exposed.

I have seen rifle bullets strip jackets. Generally this was military FMJ's that had been modified to soft or hollow point configuration.

I shot a lot of Frank Hempstead's bullets. His .429 soft points were made from copper tubing, and had a .062 hole in the base. He claimed that anything larger than 15% of the bore area was asking to strip a jacket. A cannelure will not hold that dragon back either, especailly with that huge opening on the other end...

My 35 Whelen is quite happy with 9mm brass for jackets. For heavier bullets, I found that the 30 Tokarev brass works out well. 38 super is good, but harder to find in quantity - the Tokarev stuff is berdan primed & usually discarded.

If you want a L/H 35 Whelen, buy a Savage 110. Spin a 35 barrel in it, or anything else you want for that matter. "So easy a caveman could do it"

B.

[rockrat]

Use 7mm mag, 300win mag, ect. the old belted mag cases, turn the belt down to .510. Cut to proper length, fill with #9 shot and run in the swage die and presto, a 550gr glazer type slug for the 50bmg

[BT Sniper]

I can understand using the .223 over the 9mm only because for us without heavy duty reducing dies the amount of reduction is only 20 thou less to get to .357. What did you use to reduce the diamiter Michael?

I may have issues of using perfectly good brass to shoot out the end of a barrel too but if I don't have the gun to shot it from I have no problems. Hope I don't get a 40S&W:) Some of us are lucky enough to have good contacts for free brass. Not me but I do know of some one with 600+ lbs of .223 brass that is some what coroded sitting outside in 55 gallon drums and yes I'm tring to talk him out of some.

As far as the jacket seperating from the core and lodging in the barrel it has me thinking. I would think any object with a right angle to the flow of the escaping gases created by the ignited powder should get pushed out to end of the barrel, Yes? As long as the brass jacket has a angle to this gas how could it stay in the barrel even if it seperated from the core? The base of the brass jacket is at a right angle to the barrel and I don't think it could be flattened out as it would have to go against the pressure of the ignited powder.

Just my thoughts from a simple mind.

Have read about the 50 bmg and 7mm filled with shot. So if I make a few of these you supose my wife would understand when I tell her I have to buy a 50 Cal:)

[7of7]

I can see how the lead core could slip the jacket, and leave it in the bore..
However, if you have a gas check,... that would keep the gasses from pushing on the core, and disloging it.
The 5.7X28mm bullet, has an aluminum core, and is a hollow point, exposed core boat tail bullet.
At any rate, if the lead core slips, it will go as the pressure will go to the path of the least resistance, and if the lead moves faster than the jacket,... there you go...

[kawalekm]

Well, this was more of a "can I do it" project than anything else. If I want to pursue the .223 case idea any futher, what I would do first is figure out how to close the neck region a little better. BT commented on making a modified bullet seating punch that curled over the brass edge. If I leave on a bit of the neck region, but curl it over first, I could make an almost closed base bullet. That I think would reduce the danger of a dislodged core. I wouldn't bother trying to use a gas check, because it's something you have to buy.

I sized the brass the same way as with my 380 jacketed bullets, by running the brass through my Lyman lubesizer. I first pushed the un-annealed .223 into the die, sizing only the shoulder half of the case to .356". After I annealed and cut the case in half, I sized the case head half. It was very easy to draw size 20 thousands in the Lyman. I could not however size down 9mm brass to .356", with 38 thousands straining it almost to the point of breaking. Perhaps if I got a .366" sizer I could do in incrementally, or just save 9mm's to make .40 caliber only. The wife doesn't really know how much money I'm spending on this project yet.

[BT Sniper]

Awsome work Michael,

Your going to have more bullets in different calibers then you have guns from the sound of it.

I'm sure we can close off the base of the jacket along the same lines as the corbin copper tube jacket process, just alittle experimenting. Totaling understand the "can it be done" idea and then work on perfecting it. This seems like it applies to all of our previous projects. You made me a believer:)

I came across a post once reguarding one's signature. I don't remember it word for word but it was like this... "My greatest fear in life is that when I'm gone the wife will sell my guns for what I have lead her to belive I paid for them." Not word for word but close. I'll have to see if I can find that person again, it made me laugh and seems appropriate.

Can't wait to see your next bullet. Pretty soon your going to have to take a picture of all your different caliber designs and show us the "Kawalekm Collection"

Keep up the good work,

Brian

[BT Sniper]

Took some pics of the base of my .429 bullets made from cut off top of 30-06 case used to make 44 AMP brass from. Two of these were shot from my gun at 1200 FPS can you tell from the base? I now will neck down from .308 to .257 and see how much less lead is exposed. These bullets shoot clover leaf groups for me.

[kawalekm]

Hi BT
That is an interesting string of bullets. Could you please describe each production step. For the bullet on the far left, I'm assuming that "flange" is the beginning of the shoulder on the 30-06 case? The lead I see in it, is it a seated core, or just a slug of lead sitting inside the brass? How did you get the base curved in to hold the core in place in bullet #1? How did you remove the flange in the second bullet? I can see how the rest of the bullets progress to the finished product.

By the way, here's a thought as to why core separation may not be a problem with these bullets. In a factory-made premium bullet the jackets are tapered with the thinnest edge towards the nose to promote mushrooming, while a much thicker base keeps the bullet intact. If however, you make a bullet from the neck/shoulder area, you are producing a jacket with "reverse taper", that is a jacket with a thicker nose than base. Not knowing any better, I would suggest that the thicker nose jacket would tend to hold the core in place just because there's more metal there to maintain integrity.

By the way, I am still jealous of how much prettier your bullets are compared to mine.
Michael

[BT Sniper]

Ok,

There may be a bit of trickery here as 2 out of the 5 bullet have been fired and 3 have not. It feels like a "where's waldo" game but look close you'll see some tell tail "marks".

Posted the picks to show how the case held together after being fired and to compare the amount of exposed lead to yours.

As to the "pretty bullets" I tumble them overnight after I seat the core and befor the final forming in the point forming swage die. These are "picture quality" which means I polished them by hand with a cloth and Flitz Polish:)

I would think once you identify the "recovered" bulets many of your questions will be answered. I'll put together some more profile pics of my process and maybe copy your idea with the cool labled back ground. Should clear things up, though the process is the same as yours I'm sure.

The internal piston of the core seating die that is normaly flat.... I made a replacement that is rounded inword (concaved) to roll the neck in on its self. After that the flat punch of the final die flatens out the base leaving a "pretty" rounded edge.

I'll get some pics over the weekend.

[BT Sniper]

Here you go check this link as I posted a pic of the same bullet pictured in position #1 above.

http://automagpistol.pcst.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=357&PID=2710#2710

Hope it works.

[over the hill gang]

I am very impressed with your work, I was a machinist by trade until I retired and have an appreciation for fine work.
Great job.

[BT Sniper]

Over the hill gang,

I'll chime in and take credit and say thanks before Michael does:)

Micheal's posts got me started in all this so he'll have to take most of the credit. I do enjoy making my own everything or trying to improve existing designs. Tooling and metal work has always interested me and now days I have to keep my mind occupied so as not to dwell on the good job I lost in the airlines. A whole nother story. Bet you guys didn't know those big planes could loop:) Just kidding. So got to start career over again and making bullets in the mean time.

Lots of very talented people making some very neat stuff on this sight. We have alot more projects to come I'm sure.

Good shooting,

Brian

[rmaster14145]

i noticed that 2 of them had been fired [smilie=1:

rm

[BT Sniper]

RM,

Good to see you around. These are the bullets I have in mind for future trades. Have you been doing any shooting? Getting quite a bit of interest in these bullets lately. Also have more dies on the way so hope to increase the avialable calibers. It is all Michael's fault, he is the motivator of new projects.

I'll have more updates as soon as dies arive.

Brian

[BT Sniper]

Thought I would bump this thread to top as well as start a new thread reguarding the size of the exposed lead on the base of these bullets and improvments I was able to make on them.
Maybe title the new thread "exposed lead" or somthing.

[recycledelectrons]

You sized the .223 cases to the finished bullet size? My books from Corbin say to size the jackets several thousandths smaller than the finished bullet size, or they might stick in the core seating die.

I'm hoping to replicate these results with the 9mm dies from www.CH4D.com, and was looking for the right sizer dies.

I've also noticed that 5.7x28 brass is about .314" after it has been fired. I'm considering using that to form .30 cal jackets. Any thoughts?

Andy

[BT Sniper]

Andy,

Welcome to the sight. All the info you could need is in this sight from what I have gathered. Allot of talented guys here.

My thoughts, even though I have not made the .357 bullets yet is that the core seating die should take care of the reduction as it should be a thou or so less then final bullet dia. The swage die then swages up to final dia with the lead expanding and the jacket wanting to shrink back to last size forms tight bond between core and jacket.

OK just a second, I reread your post and the concern was that the jacket would get stuck in the core seating die if not allready smaller dia then finished bullet. This I do have a lot of experience with and can say after using the core seating die to reduce the top of a 30-06 case from .441 down to .428ish at the same time seating the core I have never had a jacket get stuck in the core seating die. Using a good lube like lanolin is key but still I can't see a jacket getting stuck in the die. These have made me some very good bullets also with the CH dies.

For making the jacket out of the cut off top of the .223 case I would bet you will not even need to reduce first. The head of the case I'm not sure about.

With the cost of used brass now days unless you can get the brass dirt cheep or free it may be worth while to look in to comercial jackets. I can't seem to get any brass less then 6 cents a piece and it seems there may be jackets by the 1K avialble for that price.

Either way good luck with the project. If you happen to find a stock pile of extra .223 I am interested in this same project.

BT

P.S. There has been posts reguarding the 30 cal jackets from 5.7x28 I'm sure. A little searching should come up with the info you need. I have some of this too and will be attempting the same thing. Matter of fact I just got 500+ 30 carbine to experiment with in making .338 bullets with. Good shooting!

[recycledelectrons]

Welcome to the sight. All the info you could need is in this sight from what I have gathered. Allot of talented guys here.

I was asking because the data on the site conflicts with Corbin's Technical Bulletins. Corbin says any jacket not .001" smaller than the ID of the die will heplessly stick, regardless of lube.

The site says don't worry about it.

That's why I asked.


OK just a second, I reread your post and the concern was that the jacket would get stuck in the core seating die if not allready smaller dia then finished bullet. This I do have a lot of experience with and can say after using the core seating die to reduce the top of a 30-06 case from .441 down to .428ish at the same time seating the core I have never had a jacket get stuck in the core seating die. Using a good lube like lanolin is key but still I can't see a jacket getting stuck in the die. These have made me some very good bullets also with the CH dies.

Thanks! That's what I was looking for. I order the CH4D 101 series .30 and 9mm swaging sets this morning.


With the cost of used brass now days unless you can get the brass dirt cheep or free it may be worth while to look in to comercial jackets. I can't seem to get any brass less then 6 cents a piece and it seems there may be jackets by the 1K avialble for that price.

I'm a member at a range where lots of .223 gets fired on gravel. The brass that gets stepped on and partially crushed is definitely free for the taking.


Either way good luck with the project. If you happen to find a stock pile of extra .223 I am interested in this same project.

I'll let you know.


Matter of fact I just got 500+ 30 carbine to experiment with in making .338 bullets with

.30 carbine is priceless. Can we barter .223 for .30 carbine?

Andy
Andy@RecycledElectrons.com

[BT Sniper]

Andy,

Half of the 30 carbine I got is nickel plated and I can't use them. A trade would be great if your interested. It is late I'll get back to you latter.

BT

[BT Sniper]

Andy,

Those CH dies will treat you well. There has been some question as to what shape bullet that .308 die will make. When you get it post a pic for us as to what style of bullet it turns out.
Thanks,
I'll send you a pm or e-mail soon.

[recycledelectrons]

Andy,

Those CH dies will treat you well. There has been some question as to what shape bullet that .308 die will make. When you get it post a pic for us as to what style of bullet it turns out.
Thanks,
I'll send you a pm or e-mail soon.

Thanks for the brass trade.

I ordered the CH 101 sets on 5/29 and my card was billed Friday, 6/12. I got the CH 101 swaging sets today, 6/13. The S/H was less than $11 on 2 sets of 101 waging dies and a shell holder extension.

The 9mm makes truncated cone projectiles. I asked for flat base sets, and got both flat and cupped base punches. I think that's standard.

Now that I can spend some time swaging, I'm learning. I had some 113 grain .30 cal bullets cast from pure lead, to use as cores in 9mm swaged bullets. I tired it and it worked, after I got the dies adjusted. I used "pure liquid lanolin" for a swaging lube. It seemed to work.

I do have bits in my bullets that look like a mold did not fill out completely. Maybe I'm using too much lube? Better to have a few gaps than to have a stuck bullet.

Then, I tried to drop a lead #4 buck pellet in the nose to increase the weight slightly. No dice! The thing would not swage. I forgot to use pure lead, and was trying to swage a bit of Lyman #2 alloy by hand. That definitely does not work!

I tried to resize a .380 case in a Lee .356 push-through sizer to use as a jacket, and it got hopelessly stuck. I put all my weight (big, fat guy) on the handle of my Lee Classic Cast press... no dice. I've also hopelessly stuck half a screwdriver in the brass trying to pound it out from the top. The other half-a-screwdriver flew across the room after one too many whacks with a rubber hammer. I'll have to stick to bits of .223 cut into tubing for now. (Lee's used to my stupidity. They even decline to comment most times. Occasionally, I get an "I've never seen THAT before.")

When people have used the bases of bullets, were they turned down on a lathe, or what?

I'll try the .30 cal soon. Pictures of everything will be coming eventually, but as a teacher, summer school stats Monday, and I need to read the book, or at least glance at it.

Andy

[kawalekm]

Thanks I tried to resize a .380 case in a Lee .356 push-through sizer to use as a jacket, and it got hopelessly stuck. I put all my weight (big, fat guy) on the handle of my Lee Classic Cast press... no dice. I've also hopelessly stuck half a screwdriver in the brass trying to pound it out from the top. The other half-a-screwdriver flew across the room after one too many whacks with a rubber hammer. I'll have to stick to bits of .223 cut into tubing for now. (Lee's used to my stupidity. They even decline to comment most times. Occasionally, I get an "I've never seen THAT before.")

When people have used the bases of bullets, were they turned down on a lathe, or what?
Andy

Hi Andy
Oh, that really sucks! When I used .380 Auto cases I ran them through the .356" die on my Lyman lubesizer. http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=46953
Did you lubricate the case with lanolin before running through the die? Did you anneal the brass before trying to run it through the die? Other people have suggested I do this with the Lee sizer, but I'm glad I didn't. The same sizer worked equally well with both .380 cases, and .223 brass. I don't have a lathe, so all my work has been with rim ended bullets. I anneal all my brass at 700F in my Lyman pot before swaging/drawing.
Michael