45-120 reloading help

[Caveman]

Hello, I'm new to BPCR shooting and just purchased a Pedersoli 45-120. I would like to purchase equipment to be able to reload cartridges myself to try and lessin the cost. Could anyone supply me with a list of what I would need to get started? I would need all tools, including tools for casting, and some good books. I have reloaded some 30.06 when I was in high school with my uncle but nothing since then (43 now). You couldn't get much "Greener" than I am in the sport but hey, everybody has to start somewhere. I have been an avid traditional archer for the last 31 yrs. My son and I make our own recurves and long bows and all equipment but have decided to look to additional horizons. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Ron

[Japlmg]

Are you going to be loading black or smokeless powders?
Cast lead bullets, paper patched bullets or jacketed bullets?
The above questions make big differences in the answers.
Gregg

[montana_charlie]

everybody has to start somewhere.
Start here...
http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/Resources/Introduction%20to%20BPCR%20Loading.doc

CM

[Circuit Rider]

Caveman, only been doing BPCR a couple of years and Montana Charlie has been a great source of info for me. Don't think I chatted with him but just reading his opinions helped me. Found others here also very knowledgeable. One word of caution, take your time purchasing equipment. I got in a hurry and a couple of times bought something I either didn't really need or could have gotten a better deal for my money. Good luck, Circuit Rider Charlie I was up your way last Nov. taking some boats to Whitehorse in the Yukon. Had been to eastern Montana and across 90 to the west coast, but never that far up. Envy you greatly

[John Boy]

Caveman - read this article. It will answer nearly all the questions you have asked ... Introduction to Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Loading (http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/Resources/Introduction%20to%20BPCR%20Loading.pdf)
At the end of the article is loading data for the 45-120

[HABCAN]

Moderator, if the following anecdote is a thread highjack, just delete it.

Pal of mine years ago got a Sharps .45-120, and worked up an amzingly-accurate load for it which he happily demonstrated for us of the unwashed. It would literally print cloverleafs at 100 yds. from the bench. I asked him what the load was and he allowed me 'in' on his secret thus: (WARNING! This is how I remember it, but DO NOT take this as gospel and just duplicate what I relate here. Be safe!)

"I use CCI Benchrest primers. I weigh/sort the BELL cases and always use the same five. I first put in x grains of Bullseye, then y grains of 4F, then the main charge of z grains of 2F, (all weighed charges), a card wad, a grease wad and my home-cast paper-patched bullet."

"Bob, how long does it take you to make one of those?"

"Oh, about 1/2 an hour, counting patching time."

Some people are mebbe a leetle bit too finicky? Three hours loading for five minutes shooting? Whatever, HE was having a ball so who can knock it!

[45 2.1]

"I use CCI Benchrest primers. I weigh/sort the BELL cases and always use the same five. I first put in x grains of Bullseye, then y grains of 4F, then the main charge of z grains of 2F, (all weighed charges), a card wad, a grease wad and my home-cast paper-patched bullet."

Sort of reminds one of the adds for the old Lymans powder measures that would dispense three seperate charges of powder, from the same measure. Along with that ad was a blurb about a then famous person and his results with a triplex charge of blackpowder. Very interesting stuff, also NOT for a neophrite to try.

[sav300]

Caveman,Circuit Rider,welcome and good luck.

[Caveman]

Thanks for the welcome and all the help. I will be shooting cast lead bullets and black powder.

[Caveman]

Can anyone recommend a press?

[BPCR Bill]

Can anyone recommend a press?

Caveman, if you are reloading that big panatella make sure your press has a sufficiently large "O" frame to get the cartridge in there. The newer Rockchuckers are sufficient, I have a Midway press with a big opening to handle my 45-110- 2 7/8" case. You don't have to spend a ton of money on a press, but the dies are important.

Regards,
Bill

[Caveman]

I found an old ammomaster press at a sale and took the fellows phone #. Looked in great shape but it didn't have any dies. Would that be able to handle the 45-120's. I can get it for around $50.00

[wills]

The alterfurtz link below may not work any more, but herre are some things to look at. This is all stuff i have gleaned from other places.

Welcome to the group, and dont believe everything you read here about sheep.


Alterfurtz BPCR group
http://groups.msn.com/BPCR

Shiloh Sharps
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/


Croft Barker; The Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette Handbook CISTERN PUBLISHING COMPANY, 14010 North State HWY 95 ,Flatonia, Texas 7894
Tel:(361) 865-0030 Fax: (361)865-0031,katbark@pcguns.net
http://www.cisternpublishing.org/

http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm

http://www.riflesmith.com/shoots.html

http://www.goexpowder.com/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/

You have to kind of fight with the NEI website, the second url gives you pictures of the boolits.
http://www.neihandtools.com/

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html


This can be simplified some. One way to get your powder charge, is simply scoop up a case full of Black Powder, Goex FFG or Cartridge. Scrape the powder off level with the mouth of the cartridge case. Weigh this charge, and adjust your powder scale to drop this amount of powder.

Slowly drop this powder charge into the case, through a drop tube, 24” or so long. Put a veggie. Polly or cardboard wad, as you prefer on top of the charge. Compress the powder enough so you can seat the boolit to the overall length you want. If you are shooting a single shot you may want forgo crimping.

There are technical articles available at

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/Technical_Information.htm

And you may specifically wish to refer to
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/bp_cartridge_reloading_dick_trenk.htm

and

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/charging_cases_for_best_accuracy.htm

You could also check in at

Alterfurtz BPCR group
http://groups.msn.com/BPCR

Shiloh Sharps
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

Or take a look at ordering this book

Croft Barker; The Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette Handbook CISTERN PUBLISHING COMPANY, 14010 North State HWY 95 ,Flatonia, Texas 7894
Tel:(361) 865-0030 Fax: (361)865-0031,katbark@pcguns.net
http://www.cisternpublishing.org/


Blackpowder and sstatic
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html




BPCR Lubes:

Home

"Great For Hot, Dry Conditions" sourced from Dan Theodore

Ingredients, Procedures, Notes, etc.

All measures are by volume.
4 parts refined beeswax
2 parts LubeGard's "Valve and Assembly Lubricant"
2 parts anhydrous lanolin.
OR
5 parts refined beeswax
3 parts LubeGard
2 parts anhydous lanolin. "This makes a dandy lube for dry, hot conditions."
Note: LubeGard should be available at any NAPA Auto Supply store.
Note: Refined beeswax and anhydrous lanolin are available from: http://www.from-nature-with-love.com/soap/.

Melt the beeswax and anhydrous lanolin in a double boiler. Once both are well melted, add the LubeGard and stir for a minute. This lube works well for pan-lubing, as well as through a lube-sizer.

"Emmerts" - provided by Ken Hurst
This is an old lube but still has a following and has never failed me when using it for Black Powder. I understand it can be used for smokeless if you are using low-pressure loads.
50% bees wax
40% Crisco or lard
10% canola oil
I heat this in a double boiler to mix. Do not heat in a micro wave as it offers too much heat usually. I fill my lubasizer with the lube while it is hot and it works well. I have also pan lubed with good success.

"1995 Lube” sourced from Paul Matthews
2 parts yellow beeswax
1 part Pure Neatsfoot Oil
1 part Murphy’s Oil Soap
(easy to make in 8-oz batches)
1) Melt 4 oz of beeswax in the microwave. Usually 6-8 minutes is about the right time.
2) Stir in 2 oz of Neatsfoot oil when beeswax is melted. Stir until the mixture is lumpfree.
3) Stir in 2 oz of Murphy’s Oil Soap, stirring continuously as the soap is added. Again, mix until there are no lumps.
4) Pour into storage containers as soon as batch is well mixed.
Very soft and sticky. Will not melt in the sun, but works well in the cold, too. NOT suitable for pan lubing.

“Shows Promise Lube” - sourced from Paul Matthews
8 oz Yellow Beeswax
4 fl oz Pure Neatsfoot Oil
1 cake (3 .5 oz) Neutrogena Facial Soap
1) melt the beeswax over a low fire
2) stir in the neatsfoot oil until lumpfree
3) cut the soap into fine peels, then add to the melted mixture.
Don’t boil the mixture. A very sticky bullet lube. Looks to be very good.


Here are some bullet lubes I have used with very good results in the hot shooting weather of the west. - Mystery Guest

13 oz of beeswax
5 oz of peanut oil
1/2 stick of 50/50 alox
1 oz of anhydrous lanolin

6 oz of beef tallow
4 oz bayberry wax
2 oz beeswax
2 oz synthetic sperm oil
1 heaping teaspoon of Moly

6 oz of beeswax
3 oz of bayberry wax
6 oz of bacon grease
1 tablespoon of Dawn soap
2 tablespoon of neatsfoot oil

40% beeswax
30% conola oil
30% lanolin
......................this looks and feels a lot like SPG

70% Soywax
20% Avocado oil
10% lanolin
......................this is good for cooler weather, spring/fall

Emmerts – for Texas Heat - source unknown
50% beeswax
40% Crisco
10% jojoba by volume
.......................this lube will not foul a .45-2.6 34” barrel


1/4 lb. of lard
1/8 lb. of bee's wax
2 tablespoons of STP oil additive
Heat and stir. Let cool. Heat again to pour into bullet sizer. Let cool. Perfect.

Also use the stp for case sizing. there's nothing better.
Curly Thouin, Westhampton, MA

.................................................. .............
Dan theodore published this somewhere, If i remembered where i would have just posted the link, but here it is:

Good Evening,

Below is copied a post from another site. Many of you have already been introduced to the below thoughts and findings, but some of the newer shooters may find the information interesting.

Cheers,

DanT
==========================================
BPCR Lube Thoughts and Findings
The topic of what a BPCR lube does and how it does it is often the topic of conversation; at matches, over the phone and online. Those of us that have shot BPCR for awhile know that accuracy degrades rapidly without a good lube as well as either wiping between shots or blow-tubing. After several years of extensive research, experimentation and thinking about BPCR lubes and how to make them better some general conclusions have been reached.
One realization is that, from this writers perspective, the question is often answered to address a characteristic of appropriate BP fouling control. That question is, “What does BPCR lube do?” The typical answer is, “It keeps the fouling soft.” While that is not inaccurate, it does tend to focus the shooter on a characteristic of appropriate BP fouling control. The way the question is now answered by this shooter is, “It keeps the coefficient of friction between bullet and barrel consistent shot-to-shot.” That is different than saying it keeps the fouling soft. If the fouling is soft and the same amount of moister is added by blow-tubing between shots and the barrel does not sit too long in hot, dry conditions and the barrel has not become too hot, the coefficient of friction between bullet and barrel CAN be consistent. If wiping between shots is used then the condition of the bore must be the same shot-to-shot for top accuracy and consistent muzzle velocity. The further out one shoots them more consistent muzzle velocity comes into play in support of top match performance. At 100 yards excellent groups can be shot with less than consistent muzzle velocity, but at 1,000 yards that same load will string vertically to the detriment of one’s score.
So now that the stage has been set by stating that good BP fouling control keeps the coefficient of friction between bullet and barrel consistent shot-to-shot, the underlying phenomenon of how BPCR lubes work to accomplish this goal and be addressed.
During a concentrated effort lasting about 6 months just about every known lube component was tested using several measurement techniques. In the lab each lube component was heated to the smoke point and the temperature recorded. That is the temperature at which the lube component begins to break down chemically. Once this happens the lube component loses it ability to perform properly, more on that latter. The lube components were also burned-off in a stainless steel crucible to determine the type and amount of residue remaining as that can indicate how the lube component might perform a barrel under the high heat and pressure of firing a BPCR round. All of these results were recorded and used as a data base during lube development as well as to see if there was any correlation between these two lab tests and field tests in hot, dry conditions. The melting temperature was also recorded for any lube components that were solid at room temperature.
Each lube component was mixed 50/50 with beeswax and tested in hot, dry conditions. At the start of the testing it was decided that 90 F was the lowest ambient temperature and 30% humidity was the highest to be allowed during testing. Temperature and humidity were recorded during each testing session before each 10-shot string. By the second round of testing it was becoming apparent that harsher testing conditions were needed as it was becoming difficult to differentiate between the second generation lubes’ performance. The testing limits were changed to a minimum ambient temperature of 100 F with humidity below 20 %. Final testing the following summer was done on the 1,000-yard line with the barrel exposed to the sun in 105 F to 110 F temperatures and humidity below 15 %. The number of shots was increased to 20 to heat the barrel as much as possible to induce fouling control issues. Of course the barrel was cleaned and cooled to ambient between 20-shot strings.
The first summer of lube testing a 40-65 Browning was used. The load was 60 grains of Swiss FFFg, Fed215M primers, 60/1000” Walters wad and the 400-grain Gunn/Snover bullet cast with 20-1. The Federal 215M primers were used simply because they were not being used for anything else. For match shooting Large Pistol primers are used exclusively. Three, 4-second exhales were blown down the blow-tube and into the barrel between shots and the same was done after the barrel had been inspected at the muzzle for fouling characteristics that were recorded at the end of each 10-shot test string. After the final blow-tubing a dry, tight patch was attempted to be pushed down the barrel. Sometimes a patch would not go down the barrel at all. In those instances the barrel had completely fouled out with hard BP fouling and leading. Some formulations would allow a tight, dry patch to slide down with ease with no hard fouling or leading whatsoever.
A lube-star on the muzzle is NOT an indication that one’s lube is working. Some formulations produced very nice lube-stars on the muzzle and fouled-out barrels, while some formulations did not produce a lube-star but the tight, dry patch slid down the barrel with ease and a very consistent feeling of at the cleaning rod handle. A very good indication that one’s lube and blow-tubing technique is working is when a tight, dry patch, after blow-tubing just like was done between shots, will slide down the bore with consistent, smooth effort and no friction increase from breech to muzzle. The patch should contain black, moist fouling and no lead. Certainly some rifles lead as their barrels were not finished properly or the bore was allowed to become pitted with rust. The pits and/or tool marks from manufacturing are problems that can be controlled to some extent by the use of a well developed lube. Several shooters that have always pulled lead out of their barrels between relays using the popular lubes have found that a more advanced lube, developed to do more than keep the fouling soft, completely removed their need to clean between relays in hot, dry BPCR Silhouette matches.
Typically one testing session consisted of 10 rounds each for 10 different lube formulations for a total of 100 test rounds. That was a long day of testing that typically could not start until about noon and was either finished under the proscribed conditions or terminated if the conditions deteriorated: cooled down too much or humidity increased above the test limits.
Each formulation was tested by first cooling the 40-65 Browning barrel to ambient temperature using cold water blow-tubed into and stopped in the barrel. Typically two mouths full of cold water would lower the barrel to ambient waiting about 20 seconds for the water stopped in the barrel to absorb barrel heat. Three temperature sensors were attached to the barrel to insure a “standard” barrel temperature at the start of each 10-shot string used to both test lube effectiveness as well as accuracy on a 100-yard target.
Another observation recorded along with accuracy was how many rounds it took for the load to settle down since each string was started with a clean barrel. A very consistent blow-tubing technique was used between shots and shooter hydration was maintained by continually drinking water. The barrel was cleaned before cooling and dry patched so that the barrel condition was consistent at the start of each 10-shot test string.
In excess of 30 lube components were tested in the baseline 50/50 mix with beeswax. The second phase of lube testing required that not only accuracy and fouling control were tested but also how well each formulation worked in a lubesizer as well as pan-lubing.
Some of the interesting observations were that some lube components actually kept the barrel cooler than other lube components. That is an attractive lube performance characteristic in hot conditions as lube failure from barrel heating is reduced. How quickly a lube “settled-down” to produce consistent accuracy was also recorded as was mentioned above. Some lube formulations allowed the group to form after only one round down a cleaned barrel. That lube performance characteristic is beneficial for match shooting, silhouette or target rifle, as one can start to work on their elevation and windage after the first shot instead of having to shoot 2 or 3 rounds. After a number of years as a BPCR match competitor it is an obvious advantage to shoot as few sighters as possible in very hot, dry conditions to reduce barrel heating especially when the barrel is exposed to the sun. Another finding was that some lubes required far less lube to work effectively. While some lubes required 3 to 4 grains of lube to work properly the more advanced lubes required less than 1 grain. Also, some lubes left far more “fouling” in the barrel than the more efficient advanced lube formulations.
Now that the baseline BPCR lube testing has been described and some findings related the topic of how a BPCR lube works should be quite straight forward. We have heard a number of theories about how BPCR lubes work, but so far none of the theorist has produced experimental results to either confirm or refute their theories.
Back in the Fall of 1998 a few simple observations from range testing sessions shed some light on the question of how BPCR lubes work to “control” the fouling; keep the coefficient of friction between bullet and barrel consistent shot-to-shot. Those simple observations were based on collecting the first patch used to clean the barrel between shots for observation in the lab. The heavily coated patches were allowed to air dry for a few days. Then the fouling from the patches were observed and put though some simple tests. One interesting observation was that the fouling had turned from black to white. The pH was tested, but more interesting was the fact that when the dry, white, crumbly fouling was placed in one palm while the other palm was wetted and both hands rubbed together the sensation was like washing one’s hands with soap. From there it was a little leap to the theory that we are making a crude form of soap in our barrels. Most of the residue remaining when BP is ignited is potassium carbonate, potash. Our foremothers used to make soap by collecting the hearth ashes in a pot kept next to the hearth hence the name “potash.” She also collected grease from the cooking process and with water and heat made soap. That is precisely what is happening in our BPCR barrels when we use BP. As many know soaps are excellent high-temperature, high-pressure lubricants. Lithium grease comes to mind. It is a soap. For smokeless powder the process in the barrel is quite different, lube performance requirements unlike BP lubes and not the topic of this discussion. But, the end result hoped for is the same consistent coefficient of friction between bullet and barrel shot-to-shot.
So, it would seem that to keep the coefficient of friction consistent shot-to-shot BP lube must transform a certain amount of the potassium carbonate into a crude form of soap and the appropriate amount of moisture must be added through blow-tubing. BP combustion also adds some moisture to the barrel. It could be that the combustion moisture forms the basis upon which continued shooting can take place with the addition of appropriate blow-tubing. Dry burning BP’s are notoriously difficult to control from a fouling management point of view. That dry burning characteristic may restrict this hypothesized initial soap formation process.
Certainly there are other mechanical and chemical processes doing on through each cycle of shooting and blow-tubing, but it is believed based on extensive testing and results interpretation that soap formation is the primary vehicle for “keeping friction consistent.”
Cheers,
DanT

[Caveman]

WOW, Thats a lot of info. Thank you so much for all the help.

[RMulhern]

"so who can knock it!"

ME!!

Your 'friend'...WAS AN IDIOT!!



Moderator, if the following anecdote is a thread highjack, just delete it.

Pal of mine years ago got a Sharps .45-120, and worked up an amzingly-accurate load for it which he happily demonstrated for us of the unwashed. It would literally print cloverleafs at 100 yds. from the bench. I asked him what the load was and he allowed me 'in' on his secret thus: (WARNING! This is how I remember it, but DO NOT take this as gospel and just duplicate what I relate here. Be safe!)

"I use CCI Benchrest primers. I weigh/sort the BELL cases and always use the same five. I first put in x grains of Bullseye, then y grains of 4F, then the main charge of z grains of 2F, (all weighed charges), a card wad, a grease wad and my home-cast paper-patched bullet."

"Bob, how long does it take you to make one of those?"

"Oh, about 1/2 an hour, counting patching time."

Some people are mebbe a leetle bit too finicky? Three hours loading for five minutes shooting? Whatever, HE was having a ball so who can knock it!

[Kenny Wasserburger]

The RCBS Ammo Master will work fine for a 3.25 chambered 45. the C&H 444 Press also is a fine press for large cases of this lenght.

Work Darn Well for 2-7/8ths Sharps Too aka the REAL 45-120.

The Lunger Again

[wonderwolf]

I loaded some 50x140 sharps on my RCBS rockchucker yesterday and it was a trick to get the bullet up past the case to seat it since there was only about 1/2" of clearance between the die and the case mouth. I would like to secure an adapter for my 50BMG press so I can just load the brass on that.

[Caveman]

WOW, 50-140! Whats that like to shoot. I've read horror stories about retna's being detatched!
What kind of 1000 yds shooting does that baby give ya?

[wonderwolf]

WOW, 50-140! Whats that like to shoot. I've read horror stories about retna's being detatched!
What kind of 1000 yds shooting does that baby give ya?

I'll let you know, its a project rifle right now and I have not shot it yet. It's no worse than the .458 Win Mag loads I plink with at least thats what the recoil caclulator results are showing. I don't plan on shooting 1,000 yard with it unless I can somehow fix a 24" soule sight to it lol :Fire:

[omgb]

I settled on a Redding T7 for loading BP because not only was the opening big enough, but it allowed me to station all of the needed dies. After fooling around with blow tubing and various lubes i settled on a few things that work for me. first, I use Dan T's White Lightening lube. it's thebest bar none. Second, I duplex load. I find the max amount by volume I can fit in the cartridge using 2F BP and compressing about an 1/8 of an inch before bullet seating. I back that charge off 8% and replace it with 8% by wieght of RL7. So my typical 45-90 charge is 6 grains RL7 and 75 grains GOEX 2F, a .030 fiber wad and a 520 grain Lyman bullet. I get very little fouling and excellent accuracy. It's not match legal though.

[oldreliable45120]

I use Lee clasic press, plenty of room. I use the same press for my 50bmg too. I use Lyman dies and Lyman neck sizing die. I got a powder compresing die Buffalo Arms. They also have anything you will need for that case. My rifle is a C.Sharps with a 1/18 twist Badger No 1 heavy barrel. I found any buller lighter than 500 grains wouldn'nt shoot out of my rifle. Her is the 2 loads I use in my rifle.
Bell brass- annealed for the first inch-primer pockets uniformed and debered
WLRM primer
118 gr Goex CTG - scale weighed compresses enough to acomodate 060 vegi wad and
1/8" SPG lube cookie
600gr paper patched bullet
or
535 postell bullet without lube cookie
hope this helps you out some, but remember every rifle is different. It took a long time for me to get this rifle to shoot. that 3 1/4 case isn't to easy to get to shoot

[mnzrxer]

Caveman, I just started working with the 45-120 last year. I had to buy dies (RCBS in my case), brass (I'm using Norma from Cabela's), a bullet mold and handles and a source for lead. I have tried three bullet designs so far. The first two were Lee designs, the 459-500-3R and their 500 gr round nose gas check design (didn't use a check though). I didn't have much luck with either. I don't think the aluminum Lee molds work that well with the really large boolits, they get too hot to easy. I am now using a SAECO #745 mold that drops a semi pointed boolit of 525 gr. I have had much better luck making good boolits with this mold.

For casting I have both a Lyman 10lb pot that I use with a dipper to fill the boolit mold and a Lee 20lb Production Pot that is a bottom pour design. I think the Lee would work better if it had a higher flow rate. It just doesn't fill the mold quite quick enough to get great boolits every time. I am still working on a technique to use the dipper efficiently with my 2 cavity mold. I can always get one good boolit but the second one is only good about 70% of the time. I think this just comes down to getting the rhythm right while casting though.

About lead, I have found that wheelweights commonly used for many cast boolits are too hard for the BP cartridge. My boolits are about a 10 BH.

Are you just going to be shooting for fun or is the goal to seek out the ultimate long range accuracy? If just shooting for fun you don't have to get too crazy about your loads, they will be plenty accurate to have fun at 1-200 yards and even beyond. If you intend to go compete you will probably have to put more effort into every part of loading for the 45-120.

Good luck and have fun!

[Gunlaker]

WOW, 50-140! Whats that like to shoot. I've read horror stories about retna's being detatched!
What kind of 1000 yds shooting does that baby give ya?

I've got one. It's not really as bad as people make it out to be. It's certainly much more comfotable in a 12lb+ rifle, than shooting heavy .45-70 loads out of my light weight Ruger #1. But to be honest I don't want to shoot either one all day long.

The .45-70 and even my .45-110 are a fair bit more comfortable for a days shooting. I shoot it now and again, but probably for every round of .50-140 I shoot, I probably put 50 to 100 rounds of .45-70 down range.

Chris.