Krag question

[45shootr]

Went to the range yesterday with the 1898 Krag. Shooting the 311291, (170 gr GC), in front of 21 gr. 4227 I was able to keep around 1-2 moa at 100 yards from a rest, iron sights, around 1700fps. At 200 I wasn't able to keep a group within a 16" circle! Do I need a heavier bullet? I have the 311299 mold, (200 gr GC), but I see no reference to it in my Lyman manuals They do show a 311290 but I don't really want to fork out more money for another mold, especially if bullet weight isn't a factor anyway. Is there a reason for groups to open up like this? Any suggestions? Thanx. Chris

[oldhickory]

First thing I would try Chris is upping the velocity of the load to around 2000fps and making sure the boolit does indeed fit the bore good and snug before buying a new mold right away. Also weight your boolits and only keep those weighing +/- .2 gr. for your long range shooting with that weight boolit, (just took a self-refresher read in Lyman's old Cast boolit handbook over the week-end:)). That may fix your problem.

[Char-Gar]

What do you mean by iron sights? Are you talking the issue open sight or some kind of peep sight? What were the conditions of light and wind. Did you shoot any other loads at 200 yards that day as a check on your shooting? How are your eyes?

The point I am trying to get at, is there are far more reasons the groups can open up at 200 yards than just the bullet and load. Don't fixate on the load until you know for certain the larger groups were not caused by other issues.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Personally I agree with Oldhickory on the 170... push it faster. Sounds like it is marginally stable at the 1700 fps and by the time it gets to 200 that "marginal" is no longer keeping it on the barn dooor.
In my 3 krags I shoot a 200 gr or heavier. They all seem to do well with BIG FAT boolits at 1700+.
Does your boolit fill the thraoat....

[Larry Gibson]

311291's out of a 10" twist at 1700 fps will remain stable all day long out to 200 yards and much farther. As Charger mentions; 45shootr is having a "sighting" problem. Biggest problem I've seen is using the same size bull (usually a 6-8" bull) at both ranges. When the visually 1/2 size smaller bull is seen at 200 yards most then focus on the target to see it and sight alignment go awry. Ergo the group size increases. The use of a 1-14" bull is recommended for 200 yards with the military iron sights for best sight alignment and sight picture.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson

[Bob S]

The velocity of the load by itself is not causing the extreme spread you are experiencing at 200 yards. Something else is going on. The 311291 design will shoot outstanding scores at 200 yards at less than 1400 fps with a properly tuned load in a rifle in good condition and a capable shooter. Remember that the old time (and present day) scheutzen shooters shot plain base lead alloy bullets at the German ring target at 200 yards at velocities of less than 1400 fps, and the groups and scores would scare ya!

My 1898 Krag long rifle will keep ten rounds in the MR-52 ten ring (4” diameter) when fired prone in the sling at 200 yards with a load of the 311291 sized to .310 and 15.0 grains of Hercules (now Alliant) 2400, unless I really screw up. I never chronographed the load, but I’m relatively certain it starts out at less then 1500 fps.

Your reported results sort of illustrate why I think it is futile to test loads at very short range (like the 50 yards we see so often), and with less than ten shot groups. Serious problems with a load often do not manifest themselves at such close range. I can’t count the times I have fired at 50 yards to make certain that I will be on the paper at 100 or 200; gotten one ragged hole at 50 and then had the load fall apart at the longer ranges.

Some specific things to consider:

Shooting low velocity loads at 200 yards is a lot like shooting full power loads at 600 or 1000 yards. In fact, I had a mild cast bullet load for my Navy 300 Win Mag Long Range rifle that I used for practice at 200 yards. The sight setting for 200 with the cast bullets was close to the 1000 yard setting for the speedy 190 grain SMK loads; the sensitivity to wind was pretty much the same, and the sensitivity to sight picture was nearly the same. You need to watch the wind very carefully and correct for changes. With “service” loads at 200 yards, the wind will seldom blow you out of ten ring, but with cast bullets, it may blow you out into the 8 ring or worse if you miss a change. Also because the trajectory is like that of a howitzer, a small aiming error in elevation yields a very large error on the target.

Is the muzzle of your barrel tighter than the throat? If it is not, you will have difficulty getting satisfactory groups because the yaw that is induced as the bullet leaves the muzzle will be accentuated, and the effect will be non-linear with range (i.e., 2” groups at 100 yards will NOT equate to 4” groups at 200 yards).

Are you certain that you are not getting any leading? Did you shoot your group(s) at 100, and then go to 200 without checking for leading? Frequently a load will hold together very well for about ten shots with minor leading, and then go to hell in a handbasket after that if the leading is not dealt with in some way. After ten shots push a really tight patch through the bore and examine it closely; and examine the bore carefully near the muzzle. If there’s any signs of leading on the patch or in the bore, the load needs some adjustment. If there is no sign of leading, shoot 20 shots and check again.

If your bullets are not seated concentric with the bore, they will be “pre-yawed”, and the yaw motion of the slow bullet will increase geometrically with range, not linearly. Just like the effect of a “belled muzzle”.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[45shootr]

Actually I'm using thr SRC target at 200 and the SR-1 at 100.

[Throwback]

I think Chargar and Larry are on the right track with this. Sighting error is perfectly normal with open sights and it is magnified the greater the range. You don't provide specifics on your sighting arrangement but the front sight is most critical. A post is generally more precise than a bead. The precision of a bead depends on its width. The larger the width, the more visible it is but a large bead is less precise than a fine one.

Regardless of the arrangement I adjust the sights to shoot to the top of the front sight so as not to obscure the target. Because I sight in at 100 yards I need to hold up about a half a bead in the rear notch in order to be on at 200. I still use the top of the front sight as a reference.

You will get the best accuracy with loads in the 1,600 fps range. Don't be surprised if the very best you can do is 3 to 4 MOA at 200. If you get that, you can feel very good about it. Open sights certainly have their uses but most of them are not precision instruments.