Wacky wadcutter antics.

[shooting on a shoestring]

So I was experimenting with casting soft wadcutters and hollow pointing them for boogie man boolits for my .357 SP101. I was using .358089 which is a 140 ish flush seating wadcutter, three lube grooves, a very tiny crimp shelf, looks more like 1/2 of a lube groove at the leading edge to accomodate the crimp, and topped off with a spherical button nose about the size of a BB. I cast a batch in 75% soft lead/25% WW, air cooled, lubed with Felix Lube.

For hollow pointing, I drill, usually in a drill press, or else hand cranking the Foster trimmer with a drill bit in it. The BB shaped button nose made my drill want to wander off center. So in a flash of inspiration, I turned them upside down and drilled hollow points in their flat bottoms where the drill would not wander. They drilled great, centered, beautiful as I've ever had HP's.

I loaded a box of un-drilled, seated button nose forward, over 8 grs of Herco. Then for comparison, I loaded a box with the same charge, but with the hollow pointed bottoms forward, button nose towards the primer.

Both chrono'd right at 1100 fps out of my 2&1/2" SP101. The forward facing boolits shot fine, showed significant mushrooming after passing through a 1 gallon water jug and into damp sandy soil. The backwards boolits with the HP'd bases forward gave impressive expansion and about 1/2 the penetration in the soil, but.....groups at 25 yds were bigger than my 8.5 x 11 copy paper targets and one of the few holes I got on paper was from a sideways boolit. Moving up to only 3 yards from the target, I could keep all shots on the copy paper, but about 1/3 of them went through the target sideways! I couldn't believe that at 1100 fps in 9 feet a boolit could get 90 degrees to the target but they did, repeatedly.

I am shocked that in such a short distance a boolit can tumble that quickly, and baffled at what caused the hard tumbling. Anyone care to hypothosize?

[MT Gianni]

Too soft an alloy for the speed? Try the same load without HP both backwards and lip out and see what you get. Was the bbl clean from stripping? no leading?

[shooting on a shoestring]

MT Giannni, Thanks for the thoughts. As for too soft an alloy, no b/c same alloy, same batch of boolits shot fine pointed forward. Could it be the hollow pointing - I don't think so, but I'll find out by loading some HP'd some not.

There was some leading after 50 rounds for each load, looked pretty much the same as far as I could tell. I would call it mild leading. Mostly after the forcing cone. Each time cleaned right out with 20 or so strokes of a brush.

Stripping the rifling? The HP'd boolits being slightly lighter (I drill after seating the boolits so I haven't weighed any) shot roughly 25 to 30 fps faster, hardly measurable difference. The HPs were drilled 1/8" diameter about .200 deep.

I have pushed .38s cast in pure PB to the stripping point in my Model 60 snubby. There was crazy leading after 5 shots then, and I don't remember them getting completly sideways at only 9 yards.

Its possible that could be the culprit. I suppose boosting the velocity of the forward boolts should push them over the threshold, and slowing the HP'd based ones should drop them below the stripping threshold.

I'll load and check it out over the next week or two.

Anymore theories out there?

[JSnover]

Maybe your boolits center of gravity was too far aft by the time the drilling was done. Try a smaller hole and/or drill it deeper.

[HeavyMetal]

Checked the stickies for the Lyman boolit chart and didn't see a 358089. Could you mean the 358087 AKA 35887?

If you do I have a 4 banger mold cut for that boolit. I also may have a bit of insite into your problem. The area with the BB shaped nose does not seem to be completely "square" and, in my mold at least, drops a boolit that seems a bit "radius'd"?

I don't think I can come up with a better term right now.

Tumbling of boolits has two major cause's a poor crown or poor boolit base's. In your case boolits with square base's shoot fine so nothing wrong with the crown.

Suggest you take a good hard look at the nose of your possible HP boolits with a strong magnifiying glass and look for rounded edges. I think you'll see the radius I'm talking about and , if not exactly the same all the way around, the "base" will tip on exiting the barrel and give you your keyholing.

A better boolit for this idea might be the 35863. This is the double ended wadcutter and has a larger bevel base on both ends that is much easier to fill out and it is completely flat on both ends.

[shooting on a shoestring]

HeavyMetal, Yep you're right. It is 358087. Somewhere along the way my notes/handwritting slipped that 7 to a 9.

My boolits are not radiused, but there is a very small step on the leading edge. I assume that was cut into the mould to provide a crimp area.

I did examine several boolits, looking specifically at that edge area. lt looks like about 1/3 of them have a small, dimple near the parting line. That just may be the problem.

I do have 358091 which has a fairly flat button nose. Its about 10 grains heavier, but I think I'll move to it with the same 75/25 alloy and HP its front end.

I had choosen the flush seating wadcutter thinking about carrying a speedloader in my pocket and the flush seating would not transfer as much lead to my pocket as the protruding 358091.

Perhaps its time to shop for another mould, the double-ended like you suggest.

[redneckdan]

Cast them harder. Had the same problem with my .44 mag using the lyman HBWC mould. Cast from pure + 2% tin for fill out they would shoot great over 5.0gr of promo if loaded like they were supose to be, load them backwards and they tumbled half the time. Velocity was around 1000fps. Cast from 50/50 pure/WW and water drop and they shot fine both ways. Not sure why but thats how it worked for me. The harder boolits still expanded to the size of a dollar coin.

[HeavyMetal]

I agree that dimple could be all it takes to give you your keyholing.

The 358091 could be a better choice for this experiment.

Some advise on speed loaders, good idea ...carry in a pocket bad idea if you need it fast! Not only will fishing for it cost you time but the weight will everyone who looks at you you have something heavy in your pocket!

Saw a neat speed loader "Holster" that worked by putting 3 rounds "under" you belt ( inside the pants carry) and three round ouside the pants! In essence the belt fit between the rounds on the speed loader 3 in and 3 out and made it a lot less pronounced that you had "equipment" on your person!

Look around and se if the still make these! Being a lefty I never had a need for a speed loader.

Also let us know if the boolit swap works out for you!

[missionary5155]

Good morning
If I was reading the origonal correctly... "This is for the Boogey man"...
I have no plans shooting at the Boogy man at more than 10 yards. I want full expansion. I want the perpetrater to know he has been smacked. I want to buy enough time to get my 12 Guage Mossy in my hands. Accuracy is not the KEY issue. Thump hard, thump often !
My 357´s are generally stoked with the 358432 WC in near pure lead. Accuracy after 10 yards is moot... SMACK down is all that matters in a 357 MAGNUM. I do not want to have to regret latter "why did I load a Magnum with a mouse boolit"....

[shooting on a shoestring]

HeavyMetal - yep, I'll move on to 358091 over the next couple of weeks. As far a carrying a 5 shot .357 speedloader, it disappears in my pockets and is perhaps only 15% of the weight I carry in my pockets. I'm somewhat of a mechanical nerd. I carry too many keys, tape measure, flashlight, bottle of hand sanitizer, etc...the little speed loader is not an issue for me. Also, I don't make any plans for using it during a fight, but only carry it so I can reload and be fully loaded while I wait for the cops to arrive. My opinion is if I can't settle a gunfight in less than 5 shots, I'll be the dead one, and magazine capacity is not the way to win a fight (if I felt a need to have a fast 5 more rounds, I'd carry a 9 mm). I may sound fussy here, but its my opinion and choice.

Missionary - I'll have to investigate 358432, I've not heard of it before. Thanks. As for the intended purpose, the SP101 is my daily CCW, and in that role, my only available gun. At the house though, bigger artillery.

I understand your 10 yard idea, but having some knowledge of a few CCW involved fights, one in Tyler Texas, the CCW guy with a Glock 19 engaged a bad guy with an assault rifle at about 50 to 70 yards. The CCW guy scored some hits, but the bad guy had a vest, and a rifle, and won. So, I do regularly shoot my snubby at 50 yards and expect to land hits on man-sized targets. Also I cultivate better tactics than engaging a rifle toting bad guy wearing a vest at 70 yards.

[HeavyMetal]

I agree: Fast is fine, Acurracy is Final!

[218bee]

I wonder if seating backward you are deforming the "nose" as it is set deeper than your expanded mouth of case....and if seated normally the hollow base may deform also, but expands with gas as it exits....just a thought

[shooting on a shoestring]

218Bee - I like your handle. Dad had a 218 Bee, or was it a Mashburn Bee? I'll have to ask him next time I talk with him. He was big on .224. I recall his Bee, .219 Donaldson Wasp, .222, .223, 22-250 and Swift, and the .22 Hornet he gave me, were all well employed in p'dog erradication in Eastern New Mexico in the 60's, 70's and 80's....the good old days.

As for your point of possibly deforming the nose seating them into the cases...well that's a thought, but its a flush seating wadcutter so backwards the nose would be at the same place in the case the base would be if seated normally. I don't think that would be the trouble.

The 358087 is a flat-bottomed wadcutter. I haven't ever used hollow based ones, or even seen them. Now I'm curious how they're made. Can hollow base wadcutters be cast?

[shotman]

was going to say that a short barrel was the problem But at 70yds there is more to the problem than the boolits or gun.

[Echo]

Factory wadcutters are hollow based, made by swaging basically pure Pb. I have heard of folks loading them backwards for expansion, but I have also heard of folks blowing the center out of the bullet with too high pressures, leaving a ring of Pb in the barrel.

If I were carrying, I would just load the WC's and shoot standard velocity loads. A .357 diameter meplat would be effective, I think, without the sturm & drang of magnum velocities and muzzle flash, and would allow a very open path for exsanguination...