Experiments with the .454

[44man]

As some of you remember, I had boolits stick in the barrel with 23, 23.5 and 24 gr of 296 using all manner of SR primers. The powder would not light.
I cut down 12 .460 cases and loaded 23, 24, 25 and 26 gr of 296. I used the Federal 155 LP mag primer with the 335 gr LBT WLNGC boolit. Ignition was positive, all brass, even with the max load fell out of the gun and primers look great. None were flat and edges are still round. Looks like I can go up a little more to see what happens.
I shot at 50 yd's. Next time I am taking the break off, it blows the bags off every shot, pain to get the same feel shot to shot.

[odoh]

Had the same experience w/the Casull myself. Only was using CBP 335gr. Eratic ignition and one squib.

So, you trimmed down 460 brass to benefit from the larger primer pocket? In the Ruger, I experienced light strikes and failure to fire. I wonder if a heavier mainspring would resolve the problem w/the SRs? And there would go the DA trigger pull ~ ~

[44man]

I think it was a mistake to use SR primers. If pressures are pushed to the max, nothing wrong with LR primers. For most shooting, a LP primer is fine.
Dick Casull was fooling with triplex loads including even Bullseye. He worked with pressures none of us wants or needs to go near. The SR primer limits loads to easy to ignite powder and since H110 and 296 are the best for the cartridge, it was not a good choice. Factory loads are made to go off but handloaders need reliability with any powder. Why a lot of guns have not been blown up from fast shooting with a stuck bullet is beyond me.
S&W and Hornady did the right thing with the LR pocket in the .460.
In close to 55 years of reloading, I have never had a problem until I fooled with the .454, I was amazed that a primer would just discolor a tiny amount of powder and not light it off but had enough force to blow a heavy boolit into the barrel. Somehow I knew I did not want one for myself and will never buy one.
Then the problem of mainspring pressure for any rifle primer creeps in. BFR uses a stronger spring for any caliber that uses a rifle primer, like the .500 S&W and .450 Marlin. The spring will be rated at 28#. I don't think the SRH is over 22#, if that. On top of that, Ruger and BFR mainsprings can take a set. I use Wolfe over power variable mainsprings in all of my guns.
I would be afraid to rap off a cylinder full, double action in a .454 unless a max load or a fast powder is loaded.
Some are afraid of LP primers but they will hold a lot more pressure then you think and are OK unless you get carried away with velocity and pressure.
Anyway, cut down .460 brass works like a champ in the .454. All I need do is find a load that will give me 1" at 50 yd's. Fear is gone! :drinks:
I plan on testing LR primers too but brass supply is limited so it will take me some time.

[dk17hmr]

Sounds like something I need to try. I hate the fact that SR primers are used in the 454.

Often thought that 460 cases cut down to fit the length of the cylinder would make great shotshell cartridges.

[454PB]

This all sounds familiar, when I had the same problems using WC820, many responded with questions about neck tension and crimping. The Ruger SRH simply has too light a hammer fall to reliably ignite CCI SR primers. The 400's will go bang every time, but the 450's misfire 80%. I've yet to find a supplier for a heavier mainspring for the RSRH.

My other two revolvers in .454 (FA and Taurus RB) show no ignition problems with SR primers. I call it a gun problem, not a primer problem.

[44man]

This all sounds familiar, when I had the same problems using WC820, many responded with questions about neck tension and crimping. The Ruger SRH simply has too light a hammer fall to reliably ignite CCI SR primers. The 400's will go bang every time, but the 450's misfire 80%. I've yet to find a supplier for a heavier mainspring for the RSRH.

My other two revolvers in .454 (FA and Taurus RB) show no ignition problems with SR primers. I call it a gun problem, not a primer problem.
I had no problems with the primers going off but they would not light the powder. Firing pin impressions were very good. Just not enough fire!

[Bass Ackward]

I had no problems with the primers going off but they would not light the powder. Firing pin impressions were very good. Just not enough fire!


Jim,

Check out your diameter of your flash holes. I had a similar problem with 7MM Mauser and 44 Mag brass in the 70s. Neither noted to be .... problematic. The Speer / DWM
brass for the 7MM Mauser was too small of holes. The 44 Mag brass (manufacturer confused) was burred from being punched instead of drilled.

We always tend to "assume" that brass is correctly manufactured, but more sin exists in brass than any other component / factor.

[44man]

Jim,

Check out your diameter of your flash holes. I had a similar problem with 7MM Mauser and 44 Mag brass in the 70s. Neither noted to be .... problematic. The Speer / DWM
brass for the 7MM Mauser was too small of holes. The 44 Mag brass (manufacturer confused) was burred from being punched instead of drilled.

We always tend to "assume" that brass is correctly manufactured, but more sin exists in brass than any other component / factor.
Flash holes in the .454 brass are .081" and were de-burred. Those are large holes! Holes in my .475 brass are .078".

[Dennis Eugene]

OK I admit to not being nearly the student of handguns/casting and loading as 44 man who's postings I always enjoy reading and learning from. How ever I am on my second 454 manufactored by Freedom arms and have never bought a factory loaded round for the Cal and the one I own presently has never fired a jacketed boolit since I bought it second hand. I load mostly H110 in the 25-26 grain range and use sm Rifle primers altho I don't put thousands of rounds down range with it yearly I do put hundreds and have yet to experiance a squib or FTF. I too believe the problem is not primer related but something else as in maybe a week lot of primers or as has been mentioned pehaps flash hole, shucks I don't know, powder location at time of fireing, contaminated powder? All I do know for sure is that I have never had a problem with the SRP in two of FA's guns and will continue to use them confidently. Keep us abreast 44Man. Dennis

[odoh]

Good read! ~ thot I was the only one experiencing problems.

I've noticed that my misfires are in DA revolvers, an X Frame (my bros X Frame also) , and SRH. They also have demonstrated erratic ignition indicated by varied recoil, strike variances on target. The FA, (uses a flat spring and smacks primers pretty good) demonstrates erratic ignition but no misfires. Short version of the foregoing is SAs fare better than DAs making me suspect hammer strike/force and possibly load density. Reports of X frame misfires have started filtering thru and looks like the spring tensioner is set at minimum (making for a smooth DA trigger pull) from the factory.

I'll be trying some FED SR primers (CCIs are definitely rifle tuff) but haven't had an opportunity yet. Also looking at changing powders ~ got some Ramshot Enforcer to try out. Continuing to focus on getting a firm crimp and bullet tension. . . . and chkg the bore between shots :roll: Will also revisit loading density by ramping up performance somewhat. Have been starting at published load data starting charge for bullet wgt ~

Trimming 460 cases may be the cats meow but I've a couple of revolvers using that headstamp to confuse things ~ but considering it.

FWIW ~ when using electronic ear muffs, is that a squib may not make a report loud/strong enuff to switch the noise attenuation function on but may sound/seem like an actuall/ normal (attenuated) discharge. Many of these heavy revolvers have muzzlebrakes and scopes mitigating full-felt recoil ~ meaning greater risks of shooting a second shot :shock: Great caution must be taken ~

[Lloyd Smale]

I too have had two FA 454 and a ruger alaskan. Ive shot thousands through the FA but not so many out of the alakan before i sold it but never had squib in any of them with any load. I did have a problem with 820 trying to down load it and got some erratic readings on the chrono but not to the extream that you could even feel it shooting. I have experienced squibs with light primer strikes in my smith comptition guns when not using fed primers. Some times you could still here the primer going pop and the primer looked like it took a decent hit and it still didnt ignite the primer well enough to ignite the charge. My guess is that the problem you guys are having is to light of a hammer fall along with the fact that rifle primers are harder cupped then pistol primers. that combined with the fact that the redhawk is about the most notorious gun for giving these kind of problems. I cant see it being the fact that its a small rifle primer as there just as hot as a mag pistol primer and again ill say that ive never had a lick of problems with my two FA guns and ive had them out shooting in below zero weather.

[44man]

Lloyd, I only had the problem with starting loads. As soon as I loaded max charges ignition was good. Groups even with max loads were erratic and not to my liking however I never ran them over my chronograph.
Seems like the powder needs to be tight against the flash hole with the SR primer. A change in powder would also cure the problem.
A change of one grain in the load of 296 or H110 can get you in trouble with no ignition and that just doesn't sit well with me. The safe way is to use max loads. If I owned a .454 I would either use .460 brass or stay away from H110 and 296. (Or any ball powder.)
I am willing to bet even a LP standard primer would light the powder while the SR primer might fail.
When using the SR and SR mag primers with a starting load, the primer fired right away, no hesitation and blew the boolit (335 gr with tight tension and crimp.) and the powder into the barrel. When I poured the powder onto the bench, a small portion was brown from heat, the balance was normal color.
I fear what might have happened if the powder would have then ignited. This is one short step away from a destroyed gun! :-?
Now my other friend only shoots jacketed bullets and has never had a problem so this might only pertain to cast that has less friction.
He has never done better then about a 3" average at 50 yd's with his Freedom when working loads so I suspect the SR primer is still causing uneven ignition with jacketed bullets. Only further work will tell. If his accuracy increases with a larger primer, we will have the answer, so I need to get him involved in the testing with his jacketed bullets. I wish I had a pile of .460 brass.
Not withstanding that many have had no problems, the problem still exists, that can't be denied.

[odoh]

I've noticed for some yrs that all published Win data for 296 cautions reduced loads. Tho H110 is the same powder, the published caution is not made. Common in all my poor ignition experiences in several revolvers has been published starting charges of H110/W296 w/recommended primer and light primer indentation for those FTF (DAs). Load density has been mentioned as possible suspect before. Quite likely it isn't a single cause for the problem. 44Man has changed primer configured cases using same charges that resulted w/problems previously w/success but still w/indications of possible erratic ignition.

IIRC, the unburnt clump of powder, tho showing stained brown on part, some parts looked whitetish as if the graphite coating was removed. Contrary to all your reported positive experiences, there are several of us that have experienced otherwise. My lodged bullet experience occurred in a FA using recommended starting charge of 296 and SRM primer.

As a kid, I used to follow Keiths writings in the shooting tomes religiously. One of the things I recall is his seating primers hard to, as he says, crush the pellet to make it more sensitive. So, I'm wondering if he too was having difficulting in igniting large charges of slow powder.

[44man]

I've noticed for some yrs that all published Win data for 296 cautions reduced loads. Tho H110 is the same powder, the published caution is not made. Common in all my poor ignition experiences in several revolvers has been published starting charges of H110/W296 w/recommended primer and light primer indentation for those FTF (DAs). Load density has been mentioned as possible suspect before. Quite likely it isn't a single cause for the problem. 44Man has changed primer configured cases using same charges that resulted w/problems previously w/success but still w/indications of possible erratic ignition.

IIRC, the unburnt clump of powder, tho showing stained brown on part, some parts looked whitetish as if the graphite coating was removed. Contrary to all your reported positive experiences, there are several of us that have experienced otherwise. My lodged bullet experience occurred in a FA using recommended starting charge of 296 and SRM primer.

As a kid, I used to follow Keiths writings in the shooting tomes religiously. One of the things I recall is his seating primers hard to, as he says, crush the pellet to make it more sensitive. So, I'm wondering if he too was having difficulting in igniting large charges of slow powder.
No, I see no ignition problems even with a starting load now that I have gone to LP mag primer, I just need to work for the best accuracy now. I have gone from 3" and worse to 1-5/8" on the first try at 50 yd's and some groups were due to my rest being blown off from the compensator every shot. Hard to get the same hold that way.
Once I find a load I will chrono them but I do not feel the differences in recoil I did with the SR primers so things should be better.
As far as seating primers HARD, no such thing. Normal seating will push the anvil into the compound and flush up the legs, any harder does nothing. Once you feel the primer bottom, the edges of the cup are touching the case. No one can tell the difference between the anvil touching and the cup touching, just seat to bottom the primer. Extreme pressure from there can damage a primer if you push the back surface in. You do not want to break the compound away from between the cup and anvil. Just seat normally.
About starting loads with H110 and 296. There is no problem and I have used Federal 150 primers for all of my .44 and .45 loads for years and years with 296. Mag primers triple group size. I have never had a problem working a new boolit from a starting load to max with a primer that is not supposed to work with ball powders.
All you need is FIRE with a primer, not pressure and I don't think a SR primer has enough fire for the .454.
I have more .460 cases loaded with the Fed 155 primer and then I will go to the LR primer to see which gives the best accuracy between them. Pain in the butt when cases are limited. I need more. Not my gun so I will not buy brass. [smilie=1:

[Lloyd Smale]

funny how we all have differnt problems. I never really noticed a problem with the 454 but then most of what i shoot out of a 454 is full power stuff. Ive got 45 colts and 44 mags if i want to shoot less powerful stuff. Now in the 45 colt and 44 mag ive experienced pour ignition many times with 110 and 820 when using standard pistol primers. Anymore i dont even fool with a primer other then a cci 350 with either of those powders. It gets cold up here and that amplifys the problem and im not about to work up a cold weather and warm weather load for a gun. 350s light it off every time. Ive seen decent accuracy with full power loads using std primers but drop the temp a tad or drop the charge by one grain and accuacy goes south for me.

[44man]

funny how we all have differnt problems. I never really noticed a problem with the 454 but then most of what i shoot out of a 454 is full power stuff. Ive got 45 colts and 44 mags if i want to shoot less powerful stuff. Now in the 45 colt and 44 mag ive experienced pour ignition many times with 110 and 820 when using standard pistol primers. Anymore i dont even fool with a primer other then a cci 350 with either of those powders. It gets cold up here and that amplifys the problem and im not about to work up a cold weather and warm weather load for a gun. 350s light it off every time. Ive seen decent accuracy with full power loads using std primers but drop the temp a tad or drop the charge by one grain and accuacy goes south for me.
I have always stated temperature is important. Very cold and the mag primer will be better. 296, H110 and 820 are just not extreme powders. Can you imagine extreme cold with 296, etc, in the .454 with a SR primer with no fire?
None of us knows what the factory loads in the .454 for powder. I will bet it is a powder that works under all conditions but we are loaders that use all kinds of stuff.

[odoh]

I've never noticed before but in looking at bulk brass on the midwayusa site, Starline is the only source using the SR primer pocket. Hornady, Win and MagTech recommends LP primers.

[44man]

I've never noticed before but in looking at bulk brass on the midwayusa site, Starline is the only source using the SR primer pocket. Hornady, Win and MagTech recommends LP primers.
I am not up to date on new .454 brass but what I have here are Starline and WW which both take SR primers. Are there changes? I hope so.

[44man]

Another thing I seen today after I sized the .460 brass, the primer pockets are CLEAN, very little crud in them.

[odoh]

As w/everything on the inet ~ info is always suspect as they build the page according to copy/paste & edit format (even I do that myself) and edit the differences - - and if they overlook a difference while cleaning up, the error becomes fact set in concrete as fact until someone challenges it.

I did chk the manf websites. Win & Hornady doesn't disclose the pocket size, while MagTech does. Of course Starline isn't a question.

[odoh]

As said re inet info ~ found 300rds of unfired magtech brass Lot 05 (2005?) and had SR pockets - Oh well :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Lloyd Smale]

My guess is its loaded with 110 or 296 as i dont know another powder that will give the velocitys there getting without blowing a gun up. You have to keep in mind though that there loading high pressure rounds not reduced loads and like we both know higher pressures pretty much take care of the problem. I guess a guy has to keep in mind that when the 454 was invented it was invented to push the envelope, it was not meant to be idled and that im sure was the reason they gave thought to the small primer and the fact that its less likely to blow. Id about bet early in there testing they blew a few primers. YOu also have to keep in mind that the first 454s were duplex and triplex loads that gave pressures that were sky high even compared to what we run in them. Id about bet if they though it would never be loaded past 50000 that they wouldnt have bothered with the small primers. Like i said if you use the 454 the way it was intended its not really a problem. Its when its downloaded you run into these problems. So why even do it? Take a 45 colt out if you want 1200 fps loads. For the most part they do anything in the hunting field a 454 will anyway.
I have always stated temperature is important. Very cold and the mag primer will be better. 296, H110 and 820 are just not extreme powders. Can you imagine extreme cold with 296, etc, in the .454 with a SR primer with no fire? to me its about like buying a vette and pulling a couple plug wires off.
None of us knows what the factory loads in the .454 for powder. I will bet it is a powder that works under all conditions but we are loaders that use all kinds of stuff.

[44man]

I still go by printed load info for the .454. Starting loads are 23 gr to a max of 26 for my boolit. As anyone would do, I started at 23 and worked up for best accuracy. When a starting load and the next steps up fail to fire and even with the max listed load, it shows erratic groups, what more can a guy do? I am not one to dump in 30 gr to see what happens. Neither am I going to load triplex loads.
So we are left with safe, printed data to work with until we find it can be unsafe to do so. Why is data printed without any warnings?
When did a SR primer hold more pressure then a LR primer? Why does the .460 use a large primer? Why do all large rifle cases shot at extreme pressures use a large primer?
I think the SR primer was picked when Bullseye was used to ignite other powders and pressures were enough to almost melt the brass.
I have to agree that the .454 will do nothing more then a good .45 Colt Ruger will do. One reason I never bought one, I never believed all the hype. I also spent years watching my friend try to get accuracy that included a lot of cussing when my Vaquero out shot his scoped revolver. :mrgreen:
If any reloader uses loads that make a LR primer fail, he should not be loading at all and I don't want to be on the same range with him. :drinks:
We are still left with the SR primer as a poor choice and a dangerous choice. The .454 is not all it could be!

[Lloyd Smale]

I have to agree with you there. 23 grains of 110 doesnt work with any bullet weight under 350 grain. its way to mild to give good ingnition. I just looked at hodgdons web site and theyve really backed off the loads for the 454. Im sure its because of the srhs. I had an alaskan that Brass would have to be pounded out with a 300 and 26 grains of 110. A load that is idleing in my FA guns. I sold the gun because i just couldnt see keeping it if i had to load ammo specificaly for that gun and i got better velocity out of my 4 inch 45 colt rugers

I know you detest 4227 but im going to give you a load that has worked real well in the srhs ive tested. My buddy gave it to me as advice and in his gun it shot into an inch at a 100 yards. Its done real well in every super ive tried it in. Its the 300 rcbs swcgc bullet with 27 grains of 4227 and a ww small rifle primer.

Ive come to the conclusion that 110/296 is a useless powder in the srh 454s and just dont use it anymore. its no big deal as theres other powders like 4227 aa9 and lilgun that will work. You cant really condem a round or the design of it because your one favorite powder doesnt do well in it. especailly if its 110 as thats about the most unflexable handgun powder made. I keep a keg on hand for load testing but RARELY use it in my working ammo. Like i said its cold sensitive, primer sensitive (which is important these days when a guy has to take what he can get at the store) and theres other less finiky powders that give just as good velocity and are alot more user freindly.

So i guess my question to you, and this isnt meant to be a smart ass comment, is why are you still even fooling with 110 for load developement for that gun. to me hodgdon could throw all the 110 they have in a burning barrel and hercules could do the same with there blue dot and i would miss them a bit.

[bigdog454]

Lloyd: I will agree with you on the 110 in the 454; But, when it comes to Blue dot you and I can not agree. The most accurate load I have for me SRH (9 1/2") is a 250 gr cast bullet and 16 gr of BD. Now I have to say that this is some of the old formula BD and can not attest to the so called NEW formulation. This is not a hot load by any means, but MY gun will put all 6 rounds in a clover leaf at 50 yards, and is deadly on white tail deer.
I have found that with WW SR primers all ignition problems, That I had been plagued with disappeared. Now I can not attest to the fact weather it was because of hard primers or weak main spring. With CCI I had a lot of FTF, with the primer going of and not igniting the powder, changing to the WW primers solved the problem and I have stuck with WW for the 454 every since.
BD

[44man]

I will try some 4227, I have some. The reason I have been using 296 is that is the powder the gun's owner brought over. Since it is my favorite powder in my guns, I figured it would work in his too.

[Lloyd Smale]

Give that load a try i gave you. Id like to know how it does in your gun. As to the bluedot im not saying its isnt capable of good accuracy its just that when top end loads are used it doesnt take but a half a grain of powder to go from no pressure signs to pounding out brass. Bluedot and for the most part lilgun are two powders i tend to stay away from. Lil gun seems to work in the 3220 and 32 mag real well and ill burn the two 8lbs kegs i have of it up in them and then ill go back to 110 and aa9 in them for top end loads too. I just dont care for powders that have weird idiosyncrascys when it comes to pressure. I hold on to 110 as it does work good in some aplications. But even for those i can find another powder that is as good or better.

[Groo]

Groo here
I have shot FA 454s for some years [my 7 1/2in was one of the first
adjustable sight ones] and I must say your loads seem a little light.
The 454 is a high pressure hotty and does not like to be down loaded,
If that is you want - use 45colt cases and Ruger or TC only data.[ just use the max and don't worry about it!!].
When loading 296 or 110 they both like about a 90% load or greater with
a heavy crimp and 240gr to 300gr jackets or 260gr to 340gr cast.
And as always Mag primers [ I have both LP and SR cases].
I like cast bullets for light loads [AKA 45 colt cases] but unless I was going after
really big game [ and not in the U.S. ] I would not worry about the 340gr 360 gr
cast bullets [ I have SSK molds for both ].
My 44mag with SSK 320 gr bullets and a good charge of 296 will
hit about 1300 to 1400 from a 7 1/2 barrel [about] and blow through
a deer side ways bones and all at 50 yds or more and almost length wise
at the same range.
My 454 loads make this load look tame and the old FA loads I will not shoot
in any other gun but an FA [I do have a Taurus Bull that looks like it will
make a good hot load 45 colt gun]:mrgreen:

[odoh]

Actually, none of us were trying to develope a lite/reduced load I don't think but ran into inconsistancies in the pursuit of working up loads for new-to-us firearms. You know, start at the published recommended starting load and gradually work our way up while watching for pressue signs.

BTW ~ welcome to the forum :-D:-D You mentioned LP cases for the Casull, did you convert from another caliber or are they commercially available?

[odoh]

As stated in an earlier post, I'm now working up loads using Ramshot powders, Enforcer & TruBlu and HS-6 (WW540) for a midrange load. Haven't experienced FTF nor inconsistancy as did w/the 296 at lower charge levels. Still a ways to go ~ taking it slow. One thing obvious w/the Ramshot stuff is it burns a lot cleaner than the 296/H110 powders. Did consider 4227 but some data shows a very narrow charge spread between starting & max. I'm paying more attn to case/bullet tension & crimp but also, using the priming feature on my Bonanza press to mititgate crushing of primers which could have cause some ignition instability previously experienced. Never had to pay attn to such details in the past.

[44man]

I tried 4227 and it worked well. I then went to 26.5 gr of 296 with the .460 brass and it also shot a good group. So I then loaded .454 brass with the WW primer and it shot the same as the .460 brass. Brass fell out of the gun, (SRH) all primers were normal too.
These were with the 335 gr LBT. .454 brass works if the load is high enough. Going 1/2 gr over book max leveled out the burn and brought back accuracy. BUT REMEMBER, EACH GUN IS DIFFERENT and some might show pressure with this load.
My concern was with starting loads.
The conclusion I have come to is that hotter loads are no problem.
The .460 brass with LP mag primers DOES work for any load and makes it far easier to work with the caliber.
I learned a lot and still think .454 brass would be better served with LP primers. Even starting loads of 296 showed decent accuracy and sure ignition using .460 brass. I like the stuff! :drinks:

[odoh]

. . . . .My concern was with starting loads.
The conclusion I have come to is that hotter loads are no problem.
The .460 brass with LP mag primers DOES work for any load and makes it far easier to work with the caliber.
I learned a lot and still think .454 brass would be better served with LP primers. Even starting loads of 296 showed decent accuracy and sure ignition using .460 brass. I like the stuff! :drinks:

Thats where I thot this thread was leading. The starting load protocol while the best practice isn't the panacea we would have hope. Another example IIRC was a problem with light/reduced charges of 4831 in 25-06 that would randomly detonate.

Thanks for the follow-thru ~ a great benefit. I'll move up my charges a bit ~ really want to deplete my stocks of 296/H110.

[leftiye]

Twas 4350.

[odoh]

Twas 4350.

Oh, great! Now the long-term is going too ~