Pure soft lead + Wheel weights

[ljshooter]

So I have some pure soft lead in bars and I would like to know at what ratio should I add wheel weights to to make a decent boolit alloy. Thanks in advance for the advice.

[Ole]

That depends on what you want your bullet to do.

.45 ACP/.38 special wadcutters- 50/50 and aircooled is fine.
9mm/.40 S&W- I'd use the same 50/50 mix, but water quench the boolits to make them a little harder.
.357/.41/.44 Mag- Try a 3/1 WW/PB mix and water quench/heat treat the boolits.
If you're making rifle bullets, I wouldn't dilute the WW's with any soft lead.

[ljshooter]

That depends on what you want your bullet to do.

.45 ACP/.38 special wadcutters- 50/50 and aircooled is fine.
9mm/.40 S&W- I'd use the same 50/50 mix, but water quench the boolits to make them a little harder.
.357/.41/.44 Mag- Try a 3/1 WW/PB mix and water quench/heat treat the boolits.
If you're making rifle bullets, I wouldn't dilute the WW's with any soft lead.

Thanks, what I needed to know

[JIMinPHX]

That is some good rule of thumb info there, but there can be a little more to it than that. Is it plain base, hollow base, gas checked? How hot are you loading up the powder charge? Etc.

[armyrat1970]

Also, good wheel weights contain about .5% ? tin. If mixing 50/50 you may be losing a little tin percentage. I have read that at least 3% tin to the mix allows the alloy to flow and fill the mold better. You may need to add a little tin after mixing pure lead with wheel weights.

[bbs70]

I have been using 50/50 for my 45lc.
I water quench them.
Velocity is about 800 to 850 fps.
No leading.
I've recovered boolits from blocks of wood and have little or no deformation, except for rifling.

[runfiverun]

i wouldn't add 3% tin to ww's you are wasting it and actually causing yourself problems.
try 2 parts ww's to 1 part lead and 1% tin for all above applications you need a bhn of about 15? water drop it.
for your rifle stuff ww's with about 1% tin and water dropping will get you up the road.

[armyrat1970]

i wouldn't add 3% tin to ww's you are wasting it and actually causing yourself problems.
try 2 parts ww's to 1 part lead and 1% tin for all above applications you need a bhn of about 15? water drop it.
for your rifle stuff ww's with about 1% tin and water dropping will get you up the road.

That is not actually what I said. If mixing 50/50 with pure lead and wheel weights you may need to add more tin.

[twally]

That depends on what you want your bullet to do.

.45 ACP/.38 special wadcutters- 50/50 and aircooled is fine.
9mm/.40 S&W- I'd use the same 50/50 mix, but water quench the boolits to make them a little harder.
.357/.41/.44 Mag- Try a 3/1 WW/PB mix and water quench/heat treat the boolits.
If you're making rifle bullets, I wouldn't dilute the WW's with any soft lead.


I am new to this also, I want to know if I can just use straight ww to mold for .40 s&w for target practice.
Thank You Todd W.

[Tom Herman]

Also, good wheel weights contain about .5% ? tin. If mixing 50/50 you may be losing a little tin percentage. I have read that at least 3% tin to the mix allows the alloy to flow and fill the mold better. You may need to add a little tin after mixing pure lead with wheel weights.

50/50 works GREAT for me! I add 2% Tin. Any more than that is a waste! Some folks add smaller percentages of Tin and add more as needed.

BTW: I tried 2 parts lead to 1 part wheel weights in my .45 LC Ruger Redhawk and got horrendous leading, so be warned. 2:1 may or may not work in your gun. YMMV!

Happy Shootin'! -Tom

[Old Ironsights]

I've been running 3ww/1pb for general purposes (358156hp) but am probably going to 4/1 for my 180s. I've got to check the bhn again though.

[Ole]

I am new to this also, I want to know if I can just use straight ww to mold for .40 s&w for target practice.
Thank You Todd W.

That would probably work. I'm fairly new to this as well, so i've never tried that myself.

Most people now a days are in "save/stretch their WW lead" mode, because it will soon get harder to find and it's such a relatively valuable, all-purpose casting alloy.

[missionary5155]

I am new to this also, I want to know if I can just use straight ww to mold for .40 s&w for target practice.
Thank You Todd W.

Good morning
Yes you can use straight WW for just about any boolit... if it is sized correctly and with proper lube. I understand why someone would want to... Last time up north there ALL I had for several months was WW. I shot it in all my rifles and revolvers. I reserved what little pure I had for muzzle loaders and special need.
BUT I prefer to use as soft a boolit as possible. I prefer to mix pure with as little WW as possible to get the best accuracy for that pressure /FPS. I want my boolit to expand. I want my boolit to fill/seal the chamber. But again it all must balance out with Pressure / sizing / lube / and desired impact performance.
But if all ya got is WW shoot it realising the limitations involved.

[suerto]

I have a question concerning this as well.. I have berm scrap and WW sepreated ingots and a lee hardness tester.. Made a couple of bullets from the scrap and then from the WW, hardness tested them. I'm getting an 8.0-8.7 bnh on the tester, according to my accurate load manual, max pressure for #5 powder with a 175gr Lead SWC pressure could be up to 35,000 psi.. Refer this back to the "lee hardness tester chart" and that would require me to have bullets hardness testing around 27-28 BHN for max pressure of 35,000..

Am I reading these pressure charts wrong (from the powder load manual and the hardness tester manual)? Are they referring to two different pressure ratings?

I must be if you guys are saying that WW work fine in ANY pistol load..
I am loading .40 with Accurate #5 lee mold 175gr SWC..

Please lemme know what I am thinking wrong..

thanks,
Brian

[blackthorn]

The FIRST thing to do is to slug your barrel (and cylinder if its a revolver)!! Fit is king!! If you do not have a good fit, you are going to get leading no matter what the composition of your alloy is!! Have a great day.

[454PB]

Brian, are you saying that both the range scrap and the WW alloy tested 8-8.7 BHN?

My WW alloy tests around 12 BHN, but that is a week or so after casting. It takes a while for boolits to reach full hardness.

The "pressure/hardness" guidelines are just that.....guidelines. If you believe them fully, the cast boolit loads I use in my .454 Casulls are way under proper hardness, and would require a BHN of 35 or so. Yet, they shoot fine in my guns at a BHN of 16. Relying on obturation is a poor way to achieve successful cast loads. Proper sizing and lubrication is the key.

I'd recommend you try your .40 loads as cast after slugging your barrel and sizing .001" over bore diameter.

[suerto]

Yes 454, thats what I am saying.. Range lead measured .08 = 8.0 BHN =10261 max press.. WW measured .075/.076 = 8.7 BHN = 11152 max press... According to the perscribed method in the "lee hardness test kit".. Now, this was maybe 1 hour after casting, water quenched.. I realize that they will become harder after time.. Just thought they wouldve come somewhat closer to the recommended hardness considering guys are shooting them with no lead issues.. I am also aware that the alox will assist in that greatly as well... Just started casting, so I have yet to shoot these and see what happens..
By "slugging the barrel", you mean taking a cast 40 bullet and pushing through the barrell and then miking it? I do plan on sizing my bullets with "lee bullet sizer"... Its on backorder at midway..
I understand that charts on paper dont = real world performance (I work in an engineering field, dad's an engineer, wife's an engineer, grew up in a deisel mechanic shop, drag race bikes, etc, etc..)
BUT, the "max pressure rating" on the hardness test chart are so far off from what I am testing.. According to the hardness chart, to achieve a "max pressure" of 35,000, I need a BHN of 27.. So, I am wondering if the hardness test chart's pressure is related to something else.. Not load casing pressure out of the gunpowder load manual..
Presently casting all of my WW ingots (water quenching) and gonna just let them sit for a week and test again.. Just to get some casting practice going...

thanks for the feedback,
Brian

[Echo]

I have read that at least 3% tin to the mix allows the alloy to flow and fill the mold better. You may need to add a little tin after mixing pure lead with wheel weights.

No, it's a maximum of 3% tin - any more is wasted. Actually, 2% is probably enough, and good results can be had with less - but you DO need SOME...

[Gunslinger]

BTW: I tried 2 parts lead to 1 part wheel weights in my .45 LC Ruger Redhawk and got horrendous leading, so be warned. 2:1 may or may not work in your gun. YMMV!

Happy Shootin'! -Tom

Did you WQ those of just air cool??

I've been thinking about trying the same alloy just for kicks, and think that if WQ'ed and properly sized I may work for .38 special :roll:

[huntinlever]

i wouldn't add 3% tin to ww's you are wasting it and actually causing yourself problems.
try 2 parts ww's to 1 part lead and 1% tin for all above applications you need a bhn of about 15? water drop it.
for your rifle stuff ww's with about 1% tin and water dropping will get you up the road.

Old thread, sorry for the resurrection runfive and all, but I asked this on MO and so far not a lot of interest. Forgive the cut and paste, but I think it's appropros. At least I hope it is, and that's it's interesting to others.

Without repeating it all here, suffice it to say I've read two rather opposing opinions; and these bear out in practical considerations because it involves selecting among pure ww, 50:50, enrichment or non-enrichment with some tin-intensive alloy, e.g., pewter or 95/5 solder.

So, one school emphasizing the importance of parity of tin and antimony; of the "perfect" complexation of the two in SbSn. From the LASC book, From Ingot to Target:


The malleability of lead-tin-antimony tertiary alloys depends heavily on composition, particularly on the tin/antimony ratio. When the concentrations of tin and antimony are equal, the alloy behaves as though it’s a binary system with “SnSb” as the diluents in the lead matrix. The phase behavior of SnSb is notably different than that of Sb -- both in terms of solubility and in terms of crystal morphology. Sb is highly crystalline and only soluble in Pb to the tune of 0.44% at room temperature. SnSb appears to be significantly more soluble in Pb and based on electron micrographs of chemically etched samples, significantly more amorphous. As mentioned before, the SnSb phase serves as a mixing agent, serving to help dissolve excess Sb (or Sn for that matter), and having greater solubility in the Pb matrix (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=22188054). This enhanced mixing, along with the reduced crystallinity means that the lead alloys with a 1:1 ratio of tin to antimony behave somewhat like simple binary lead-tin alloys, only harder (this is why Lyman #2 is 90% Pb, 5% Sb, 5% Sn). Hold this thought…

As the concentration of antimony increases over that of tin, at first the SnSb phase serves to dissolve the small amount of excess Sb. At higher Sb concentrations however the SnSb phase becomes saturated and a separate antimony phase begins to precipitate. At this point, the alloy begins to take on some of the brittleness properties of the binary lead-antimony alloys."




(emphasis mine)

An opposing viewpoint, one that finds tin largely unnecessary at the antimony levels we deal with; from the NRA book by Col. Harrison, Dennis Marshall (pp. 122-123) implies that tin's need is very overrated; that in an antimony-lead alloy of less than 11% antimony (our range), antimony and lead form a very strong, eutectic latticework structure, surrounding pure lead. Thus largely denying this presumption of "brittleness" in the absence of tin. He's got photos to show for it. He does give tin chops for its anti-oxidation power, drossing; and for its helpfulness in a ternary eutectic structure with a single, sharp melting point of 464F and as an aid in fluidity; such as seen in linotype.

He goes on to state that a tin content of .25-.5% (as found in ww), is fine and implies that anything more a waste.

Both seem credible and soundly reasoned. But they can't both be right, really.

The LASC book implies that outside unity, with an antimony content saturating the SbSn formation and overwhelming it, you're going to get a brittleness issue. So whether using pure ww, or 50:50, you need to bring in tin to get it to approximately 1.5% (50:50), or 3% (ww).

The Marshall article, on the other hand, gives mild credence to tin's job but because of the tidy eutectic formation of antimony and lead, especially at levels below 11.1%, the article basically calls the tin-necessity argument a myth.

So - runfive, you guys with a heck of a lot more experience than this noob, what are your thoughts here? I can basically get all the ww I want, for a reasonable price; pure Pb is harder to come by and if I don't have to enrich with tin, all the better. It's all about hunting performance, non-expansion as closse to 100% penetration as you can get, and a clean wound channel, for me.

[RobsTV]

Just want to remind that lead WW's are not created equal. SOWW will be close to pure lead and measure here at 4.7BHN. When I get WW's from car dealership, the bucket full ends up always being about 50/50 SOWW/COWW, or right at what is commonly referred to as already 50/50, pure lead/WW, even though it is still just 100% wheel weights. The posts above stating WW are generally referring to only COWW. Mystery mix of WW ingots will not be the same as COWW. If I mix a pot of 50% SOWW with 50% pure lead, nothing changes, it still pretty much pure lead.

[lightman]

Rob, thats a good point. I think everyone meant coww but no one actually said so. I personally have found coww alloy to be very consistent. I do occasionally find a coww that feels harder when I am sorting them ( I sort by cutting them) but these few don't seem to affect the hardness of the batch. I usually smelt/melt mine in batches of 350-400#.

I have also found soww alloy to be very consistent with the exception of one type of weight. Those go into the pot with the coww's. I get the same hardness with soww that I get with plumbing/roofing lead and nearly the same that I get with cable sheathing or splice covers.

[huntinlever]

Just to clarify my post, when I say ww, I mean 100% sorted, usable COWW. So this question on tin enrichment and alloy selections is on that basis. I'm lucky that my ww "supplier" presorts the buckets really well - last one was about 98% usable, lead-based COWW, only a few zn and fe weights.

Again sorry to raise a long-over thread, but it's something I'm working on. The heart of my question is on how much tin in a casting mix is really needed....the two sources being quite different in their argument. Thanks, guys, if any have a thought on this one.

[Larry Gibson]

These days if you sort and smelt the newer COWWs correctly you will be lucky to have 3% antimony and .05 % tin in the resulting alloy. More like the antimony will be in the 2 - 2 1/2% range. Adding just 2% tin the such COWW alloy balances the antimony and tin creating the sub metal SbSn which mixes into solution with the lead and stays there. That will give a much better alloy with the BHN running 12 - 16 depending on the quality of the COWWs. Mixing that then with 50% lead and WQing the bullets gives an excellent alloy for a lot of applications.

Larry Gibson

[huntinlever]

Thank you Larry, that's helpful - another member has, a couple of times now, reminded me of the changing nature of COWW and this raises one reason why material, esp. dated material such as the Marshall/NRA text, may no longer apply very well. Got it, many thanks.

Just want to confirm - you said, .05% Sn. Did you mean .5% tin?

If we're talking .5% Sn, OK - I have revised the alloy calculator COWW template down to 2% Sb. So I now have COWW as .5% Sn, 2% Sb, .25% As, and 97.3% Pb.

I'm adding in enough 95/5 solder to bring this alloy to: 2.05% Sn, 2.05% Sb, .25% As, 95.7% Pb. To this, I'll add Pb to get a 50:50, yielding 1.03% each of both tin and antimony, .12% As, and 97.8% Antimony. Starting BHN is estimated to be 9.9. I'll water quench this, as I will everything. I presume this will get me close to 18 BHN or so.

-Opinions, given my hunting intent?
-Is this estimate of a final BHN of 18 close?
-Any opinions specifically on whether this should expand, or not (I don't know where BHN and expansion dynamics are)?

[scottfire1957]

What calibers and boolit weights are you talking about?

[scottfire1957]

And just think, after you figure out your alloy, you get to work on moulds, sizing, the loob or coatings, primer choice, seating depth, powder choice.

Don't over think this. You're calculating a guesstimate to hundredths of a percent when you don't know really the composition of your COWW (unless you've had them scientifically analyzed.)