Paper Patch / 375 H&H ?

[Alasgun]

Theres too many page to read looking for this information. I am wanting to develop a lead bullet load for my #1 and havn't a clue where to start. Casting and loading for the handguns is one thing but Im totally ignorant when you move into rifles. My goal would be 300 - 350 grain slug at 2200-2300. Could I do this with a typical groove bullet? Would a paper patch have any advantage? Point me to a favorite mold, save me from buying a dozzzen to learn what you already know!
Mike / Alaska

[45 2.1]

Your projected boolit weight is heavier than what most mold makers provide. NEI makes some that weight, but the bearing surface is longer than you want. Take a normal jacketed bullet, pinch a fired case neck some and place the bullet nose first into the case neck. Chamber the round and let the action seat the bullet (may require some pushing with the No. 1 to get the breach block up). Take it out carefully and measure the base end of the bullet to the bottom of the case neck. This is the bearing length on the boolit you want to have. Once you have a boolit with this bearing length, you will need to size the driving bands to about 0.370" to 0.372" (depends on throat diameter and paper thickness), then patch with 0.002" 25% rag content paper. The 250 to 270 gr. boolits work better for this usually. You can run the patched boolit thru a sizer to get the final diameter you want, but this usually degrades accuracy somewhat.

[pdawg_shooter]

A grooved bullet works fine, in fact I prefer them. Slug your bore and size your bullets .001/.0015 over BORE diameter. Patch up with 16# paper, lube and size to a slight press fit in the throat. Load like you would a jacketed bullet and go shooting!

[Marlin Junky]

A grooved bullet works fine, in fact I prefer them. Slug your bore and size your bullets .001/.0015 over BORE diameter. Patch up with 16# paper, lube and size to a slight press fit in the throat. Load like you would a jacketed bullet and go shooting!

pdawg,

I bought some 100% cotton drafting vellum but it's a smidgen over .003" thick, should I return it for something thinner? Right now I'm patching for a .35 Whelen (.3500/.3575 barrel; .361" throat) but I'll soon be patching for a .350RM with a little snugger throat.

MJ

P.S. Oh yeah, it is 16#, 100% cotton drafting vellum.

[pdawg_shooter]

Before you return it patch a few and see what they measure. I do most all my patching with 16# green bar printer paper. Mostly because I get it free. 16# will add .010, + or - .001. Works for me.

[Marlin Junky]

16# will add .010, + or - .001. Works for me.

What thickness does it start at? My 16# may be thicker than yours when flat and dry.

Thanks,
MJ

[bobk]

Mike,
I got a NEI with the DD feature many years ago. Aside from the DD, the nose is almost a bore rider, with a hemispherical nose end. It cast a boolit that when seated to the base of the neck, yields an OAL of about 3.580, so it's about as heavy as you can go. Nominal weight is 285, but that will depend upon alloy. The short neck is a limiting factor.

Bob K

[pdawg_shooter]

The rule of thumb is to take the weight, divide by3, and multiply by the number of wraps. This will get you real close to the amount added on by the patch. It will vary a little depending on the paper and how much you stretch it when you wrap. Dont worry about it being a little large when dry, the final pass through the finish die after lubing will cure that.

[Marlin Junky]

Dont worry about it being a little large when dry, the final pass through the finish die after lubing will cure that.

I meant, how thick is your 16# paper before you wet it and roll it on bullets?

MJ

[pdawg_shooter]

I meant, how thick is your 16# paper before you wet it and roll it on bullets?

MJ

Dont know. I have never measured it. To me the important measure is the finish diameter after drying and sizing. I use the weight to get the thickness I need and go from there. Paper is very forgiving as long as the finish diameter is large enough. Paper will compress in the bore so a few thousands oversize doesnt matter.

[Marlin Junky]

Dont know. I have never measured it. To me the important measure is the finish diameter after drying and sizing. I use the weight to get the thickness I need and go from there. Paper is very forgiving as long as the finish diameter is large enough. Paper will compress in the bore so a few thousands oversize doesnt matter.

I have limited PT sizing dies right now, want to be able to chamber the cartridge (.35 Whelen which means long throat) and if your rule of thumb is applied to my 25# Stratmore tracing paper, the estimated addition that 2 wraps adds is over 2x more than the actual addition. Do you have a sheet of your 16# paper handy that you can measure with a micrometer?

Thanks,
MJ

[docone31]

Marlin, you are getting too complicated.
Cut one, wrap it, and measure.
I use standard notebook paper, or printer paper. I forget the thickness, but, it is twice traceing paper.

[Alasgun]

Yea Marlin, not only are you getting complicated but you hijacked my thread as well! Nothing your talking about has any relevance to PP / .375H&H, which is the title.

Moving on, thanks to the rest of you for some help and information. Once I determine the necessary bearing length and slug the bbl to get some exacting measurements I should be ready for a mold. This #1 has a 12 inch twist, which should be fine up to say 300gr.

45-2.1, help me understand why you mention 300-350gr.ers as too heavy? I want to get this as right as possible the first time, so please bear with me.

Making my own mold is not a problem except that it generates more questions. I like the cylinderical concept which will help me settle on an overall length / weight more easily. How much shrinkage occurs in the mold? If my mold is sized exactly .375 what will the slugs measure using wheel weight metal.
To get my feet wet a simple home made PP mold is probably in order. The split block mold is too complex for an experiment and would be easier purchased once some elementary decissions have been made.

I'm fairly flush with 4350, 4064, Red dot & 2400 and have enough 4895, 4831 for some experimenting. It looks like very few of these are discussed on here as favorites, and yet over and over I see the lack of pressure generated by PP slugs mentioned. If your not building pressure wouldn't any of these work if you can get good load density? Again bear with me and move me thru the powder choices please.
Mike

[docone31]

My choices would be 4064, 4895. I would also go heavy.
If you can make a mold, simply finding a drill bit and reshapeing the tip might just do for the cavity.
From the photos I have seen of patched recoveries, even though it has been paper patched, there is evidence of rifleing on the recovered casting. In terms of projected weight, useing an already made mold is simpler than cutting a mold and calculating weight. I use conventional molds with geat success in my .30s.
Mind you, I have never wrapped anything larger than .303 British. Hopefully my ratio helps with the .375. A lot of BP shooters also wrap that size, although their technique is different from mine.
My .30s slug- Bore .300, Groove .307. My Lee 180gn .30cal drops .301 on the nose, and I size it to .308. My casting fills the groove. The paper goes outside the groove diameter. When I warp, it wraps at .317-.318. From there I down size to .309. I came to the .309 as back when I first started reloading, I remembered some Herters .309 .30cal bullets. I loaded 100 and fired them through my old Savage 30-06. They fired a little better than .308s but I did not feel real good about the change in recoil. It wasn't worse, it was different. The report was also a different pitch.
I had read from a member here he wraps after downsizing to .308, then wrapping and sizing to .309. I tried that and hit it right off. I am there since.
With your .375, you will have to slug the bore to find the size. If you can get a commercial mold for your .375, then you will be ahead. Down sizing the lube lands in my opinion helps the patch grip during the firing cycle. I use commercial molds for my patches.
There are several members here who can make push thru sizing dies if one is not available. I have communicated with Buckshot and he is pretty straight up.
Based on what I have done with my paper patching in my rifles.
You will duplicate low end jacketed load performance with paper patching.
All my patched loads fire higher than the equal jacketed loads. I use start load data in my patched loads with 4895.
I would get a standard casting mold, I prefer Lee Molds. I started with them and have been useing them ever since. Down size the casting. There you will have to calculate. Wrap to .001 at least over groove size and try a few. You will know right away if it is right. When I first wrapped my .303 British, I was too light on patching. I was .0005 under size. 3' groups if I was lucky. By accident, I smeared Clover on the remaining patche. I figuired I had nothing to lose and it might shine the bore. the thickness of the grit gave me dead on groups! My size had been .3135. .313 I got 20min of berm. .3135 I got 3' groups, .314 I got clover leafs at 100yds. I wrap to .314 now.
It is going to take some experimenting, but, when you find the sweet spot it will have been worth it. The paper also shines the bore nicely!
I had a Ruger #1 Tropical back when. I really customized it. Douglas barrel, engraved reciever, aperature sights front and rear, with the front being spirit level. Jeweled falling block, double set trigger group. She was my joy. It was the only thing left from my divorce back then and my son "lost" the rifle when I need it.
Such is life.
That #1 should shine with paper. It is easier on the bore, and doesn't show the pressure signs of an equal load with jacketed.
Once you dial it in, you are gonna love it.
One in the hole, two in the fingers.
I also removed the ejection spring so I could recover all brass.

[leftiye]

Alas, Some .30 & .357 Nominal cal molds that I've opened up have required .003" oversize molds in relation to the boolits they produced. I would start at that measurement - groove diameter plus at least three thou, and if you're careful it should be easy to lap the cavity(s) a couple of more thou if necessary. FWIW, a smooth cavity mold that is drilled leaves a rough surface that helps hold a paper patch. Just modify the nose of the drill to the shape you desire.

[Digital Dan]

Theres too many page to read looking for this information. I am wanting to develop a lead bullet load for my #1 and havn't a clue where to start. Casting and loading for the handguns is one thing but Im totally ignorant when you move into rifles. My goal would be 300 - 350 grain slug at 2200-2300. Could I do this with a typical groove bullet? Would a paper patch have any advantage? Point me to a favorite mold, save me from buying a dozzzen to learn what you already know!
Mike / Alaska

Hello there Alasugun in Wasilla! Say "hi" to Sarah for me please!

When you're clueless you can ask questions here and get answers. You can also read up. You might want to check out Paul Matthews' "The Paper Jacket" for one. It's not a bad primer and he talks about PP loads for the .375 H&H and a No. 1.

Know your question seems simple to you but it really isn't and that's why you're getting answers across the board, none of which do I find objectionable or incorrect. People find PP loads a good thing and after the initiation they all find out that every rifle is its own personality with this stuff.

What I'd say about your journey is this:

1) Your bullet weight isn't an issue really. You want heavy, go for it! My guess is that a barrel twist that will stabilize a 300 grain jacketed spitzer will do the same for a 350 gr RN or FN design. It's a function of twist vs. bullet length, and that's about it in a nutshell. 'Course you're gonna have to be man enough to wear the ouch at the buttpad.
2) The critical issue with developing the loads is bullet/bore dimensions. Bore to bore+.001 is a good starting point but is not the last word. Minor variations may and probably will work out OK. Patch to groove diameter and lube the bullet before loading.
3) I wouldn't stress a lot about the bearing surface. If you use a RN or FP form with a flat base and go for 300-350 grains, bearing surface will take care of itself.
4) Fella above mentioned his patched loads shoot higher. That's probably because of barrel time increase due to lower velocity. Don't sweat that.
5) You can equal the velocity of jacketed bullets with paper patch, it just takes a harder alloy to reach 3000 fps. You can probably run 300 grains up to around 2000 fps with pure lead...IF...the pressure isn't excessive or the rifling too shallow, or the twist too quick....or...or....you get what you get and that's where you get to tinker in this past time. On the matter of paper patch and velocity....you don't need to go that way. If one assumes pure lead, or perhaps a 1:40 alloy, the bullet will retain upwards of 98% of its weight when crashing thru bone and meat at velocities of around 1600-1800 fps. It will penetrate like...an awful lot. You'll get double caliber expansion too. It probably works better at 1100 fps since it killed a lot of buffalo. Go figure.
6) The easiest path is to have a mould that gives you a "perfectly" sized bullet from the start. Alloy mix will determine finished diameter and weight within a small range of variation. A little sizing won't hurt much. Slug your bore, go for bore sized lead and fill the grooves with paper....it's a good start. Lee makes cheap loading press size dies to custom dimensions for not too much money.

Any more of this and I'll have to charge you.....just remember, when you're surrounded, you can charge in any direction you want.

[Alasgun]

Thanks Dan for the reply, regarding Sarah, well never mind, I'm too new here to risk it all with a political overtone!:twisted:

I think I'm getting a clear enough picture to get going in all areas except the powder. In Paul Mathews book he seems hung up on 3031, is there a reason. I did note his mention of it being the slowest powder useable that would give complete burn. I havn't an oversion to 3031, just have more 4064, 4350 etc.

My starting place will be the mold which I'll build in the next couple weeks, then it should come together a little quicker. We do need to get rid of the remaining couple feet of snow before I'll be able to get to a shooting place!

Thanks to everyone who offered something helpful. Mike (Alasgun)

[45 2.1]

45-2.1, help me understand why you mention 300-350gr.ers as too heavy? I want to get this as right as possible the first time, so please bear with me.Mike

375 H&Hs have a fairly short neck and most have a shorter throat. You need to see how much length you can patch. Whatever is leftover is nose, which will be much harder to patch correctly. You really want a patched boolit where the body is a lot shorter than the nose? Check it out and see what will fit in your rifle.

[Digital Dan]

Mike, I'm not terribly conversant with specifics on powder for this endeavor. With all the respect I can muster for Matthews' book, there are some items in it I object to. My broad take on interior ballistics and large cases...........in your case with one that is essentially a straight wall case.

Powders: In my view, there are fast, medium and slow burn rate classes of smokeless propellant. In general terms, IMR 3031 is at the bottom, or fastest of the medium burn rates. IMR4350 is the fastest of the slow powders. Matthews opines that cast bullets and paper patched bullets generate lower pressures than jacketed bullets, in that order and with all else being equal. Given that, slow powders do not perform especially well at low pressure thresholds. For that reason you will find most shooters of lead bullets trend to fast or medium burn rate powders. Now I don't want to confuse you with this but will add here than in the world of powder burn there are two terms often confused inappropriately. One is burn rate and the other is quickness. Burn rate is a comparative standard that compares one powder to the next in equal circumstance. Quickness is a measure of how the powder reacts to different variables, such as case size and shape, primer brisance, neck tension, pressure and so forth. In simple terms, a slow burn rate powder like 4350 may in fact burn very much more quickly as the pressure goes up, and conversely, much slower and poorly with low pressures. Medium and fast burn rate powders are less prone to quickness excursions than slow powders. In other words, they are more appropriate with low pressure environments. Take this in general terms....understand that if you make hard cast bullets in big bore gun that slow powders may be totally appropriate. This stuff can get fairly deep in a hurry....

An example of this is found in the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual with load data for the.....ta Da!!!!......375 Hoot & Holler.

A 249 grain bullet is loaded with fast powders, such as Red Dot, 700X, Unique, SR4756 and WW630. Maximum charge weight range from 15.0 - 26.0 grains with the various powders. Velocities range in the 1420-1710 fps range. All of the same powders (and more) are used with the 269 grain bullet, velocities ranging from 1335-1620 fps.

By the by, according to the sketch they have, the case neck on the .375 is about .3" long. They do not say whether filler was used in loading these, but I would suspect it appropriate. In comparison, the load data for the .375 Winchester uses IMR3031 and achieves 1770 fps with a 32 grain max charge under a 264 grain bullet.

My suggestion would be to follow in Matthews' footsteps and modify what you have to for success. I've never been terribly fond of IMR 3031, finding IMR4895 and Reloader 15 more appropriate for this sort of thing with such cartridges. You might inquire of others about the benefit of using tissue or kapok filler to fill the void in the case left with small charges and dense powders. The SR series of IMR powders are good for this purpose as is the Hodgdon Trail Boss powder.

45 2.1 has made comment about short necks and throats typical for that chambering. I don't argue the fact but point out that bullet form has much to do with how much weight you can cram into the parameters established by your rifle. Use his method of chamber/throat evaluation or make a chamber case with Cero-Safe, available from Brownell's. Understand that spitzer forms do not work well in lead bullets due to slumping and other distortions attendant to the soft nature of lead alloys. If you go hard cast you might pull it off...or not. Look to parallel sided bullets with large meplats or round nose forms. Some try to work around the short case neck issue with bore rider designs...some find success, some do not. In your shoes I wouldn't bother with it. Without pressing one side of the discussion or the other, you don't need an especially heavy bullet in the cartridge to drop anything on the NA Continent. 270 grains will cover all the bases with ease. I know this because I hunt hogs with a single shot using .22 CB shorts.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN2968.jpg

If you have someone make a mould for you, tell them up front what finished diameter you want and with what alloy.

You might also find some bullets to toy with first by talking to Montana Precision Swaging. Don't have the number available at the moment but someone ought to know it here abouts. Up in Butte as I recall. They have a wide variety of calibers and styles. I use them for supply of my .44 Mag with .422" diameter 300 gr FNFB bullets with about a 2 caliber ogive radius and .25" meplat. They launch at ~1600 fps and hover around MOA accuracy. If I recall correctly I'm using 17.0 grains of Li'l Gun for that. Friend of mine uses their 510 grain bullet in a Marlin 1894 CB rifle and get near 1700 fps using around 30 grains of Reloader 7 and no filler. It is more accurate than my rifle by fair margin. Round nose design with a bit larger radius and a BC in the .4 range. He has not had shoulder surgery...yet.

Good luck with your project.

[Alasgun]

Man, were going places now. If I read your recent reply correctly Dan, your mentioning Red dot with a filler and then move on to say Trail boss would be applicable? If I'm reading this right that would be great as I have a mountian of both! And was wondering about this very thing! Straighten me out if I'm going down the wrong path here.
Mike

[Digital Dan]

The Lyman manual quotes the following loads for Red Dot, but keep in mind they are GG bullets, not paper patched. My guess is they are OK for PP but that's a guess. I don't have any experience with fillers, maybe the others can chime in here. It is my opinion and opinion only, but I think you can beat these numbers with Red Dot or Blue Dot. I think you can do a LOT better with the mid range burn rate powders but don't have any data for that. If you don't have their Cast Bullet Handbook you ought to grab a copy.

I note that for the most part the Lyman manual doesn't push velocities hard with the large bore guns. They do find some refreshing velocities with smaller bores. I don't know their reason and will not speculate. On the issue of paper patch, leading is NOT an issue, but stripping can be if the pressure gets high in a "fast twist" barrel. I've read of people getting factory spec. velocities with ~170 grain paper patch in .30-30s and soft alloy...you pays your money and takes your chances. You would do well to NOT roll crimp PP ammo. A taper crimp die is worth the money, OR, a very judiciously applied roll crimp die can do the trick. Neck tension is the best way to regulate this, at least until the pressure and recoil get up there on the meter. I taper crimp the .44 Mag and run full house pressures...never had a set back or anything of the sort. Because of harmony in brass thickness and chamber dimensions, I don't have to size or flare the cases either. Yee Haw!:drinks:

WW cases, Winchester 8-1/2-120 primers (going back in time here)
Gun was a Win. Model 70, 24" barrel, 1:12 twist
Bullets and loads follow:

Lyman #375248, gas checked, casts 249 grains with Lyman #2 alloy, sized to .375" diameter:

Red Dot - Start 10.5 grains, velocity 1150 fps. Max is 15.0 at 1420 fps, no pressure given

Lyman #375296, gas checked, casts 269 grains w/ Lyman #2 alloy

Red Dot - start 10.5 grains at 1115 fps, Max is 14.5 grains and 1335 fps.

I have the most recent edition of Double Gun Journal wherein Sherman Bell evaluates Trail Boss as a Nitro for Black substitute in a number of old guns, specifically those intended for Black Powder. Trail Boss is a bulk powder and correlates well for pressure and velocity with BP loads of the day but it is NOT used as a volume replacement! When you reach max loads it starts to diverge from the BP pressures in the upward direction. He tested several cartridges, none of which were the .375 H&H. I cannot find the edition for some reason, probably lost in the pile somewhere. My suggestion is to contact Hodgdon and see if they have any load data of use to your project. I'm sure it would be useful and probably more so than Red Dot.

I think you're on the right path, now take the first step.....

[Nobade]

I tried Trail Boss in my 375 Taylor, with the Lee 250gr. 38-55 bullet. Poor results. I had reasonable accuracy with velocities well below what I could accurately get with Red Dot, maybe 800-900 fps. But by the time I pushed it beyond 1000 fps, accuracy was poor and the bore started to lead. Also I was getting weird pressure signs, some primers round and some really flattened. I won't use that powder in rifles any more.
My best accuracy with that bullet has come from AA#2. I use 12 grains of that for 1200 fps, and most shots touching at 100 yards. Red Dot is close, but #2 beats it and burns cleaner.

[Good Cheer]

Any new .375H&H results to report?
Especially, anyone have black powder paper patched results to pass along?

[Nobade]

Funny you would ask now. I just finished my new 375 H&H rifle yesterday, loaded up some grease groove and some PP ammo for it, and plan on shooting it this morning. Nothing loaded with BP this time, but I certainly will be doing that in the future. The 416 Taylor worked superbly well with black powder, and I suspect the 375 will also. I do wish it had more neck so I had room for a grease cookie, it's going to be tight getting any lube in there and still have the boolit fit in the throat. I am hoping a 250gr. boolit will be short enough to allow everything to fit together.

Some day I would like to build a 400 H&H rifle. That case has a really long neck, and looks like it would be just perfect for black powder and paper patched boolits. Especially if you were to build it on a 40 cal. BPCR barrel rather than a 405 Win barrel like it is supposed to be.

-Nobade

[Sharpsman]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?62-Smokeless-Paper-Patching&

[Good Cheer]

Seems the .375H&H could make an awesome paper patch black powder cartridge.
Gonna have to try black in the .375x45-70 some day.

[montana_charlie]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?62-Smokeless-Paper-Patching&
A good home for this discussion ...

[Don McDowell]

Haven't tried paper patching with the 375 H&H yet, but it will hold about 92 grs of old Dupont 3f and sends a 255 gr fp cast bullet just sailin.. Doesn't do to bad with the lyman 330 gr postell and a case full of KIK 2f.. We sort of chuckle when we play with the 38-92 belted bottleneck express around here [smilie=l:

[Chill Wills]

I haven't used Black in the 375 HH but 20+ years ago I shot more than a few elk with a LBT 275gr PP spritzer patched to groove diameter and powdered by an even 60 grains of IMR 3031. LBT put a micro boattail on the mould. It was not my idea but I found it was great when loading into slightly flared cases.
No wad - no nutten. Just powder and wet patched bullet.
2450 fps - 3" 200y accuracy.
What was not to like!
:razz:

[dave roelle]

Not Black powder but it worked and was a bunch of fun

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?253794-375-Holland-amp-Holland-Paper-Patch
(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?253794-375-Holland-amp-Holland-Paper-Patch)
Dave