Found rifle in river mud/Worth fixing?

[Ivantherussian03]

My buddy found a rifle in the river mud, clogged up with mud. Is it worth cleaning?

Thanks
Ivan

[StarMetal]

Well dang, that's not enough info. Doesn't say how long you think it's been in the mud. Clear all the mud and other crap off and then see what you have to work with.

Joe

[steveb]

Thats not nearly enough either.WE WANT PICS OF THIS THING!!!!!!!!!!!
POST SOME PICTS!

[Haywire Haywood]

Then run the serial #s by the cops to see who was done in with it or who it was stolen from. [smilie=l: Nobody chucks a gun into the river without just cause.

Ian

[3584ELK]

...And then, if its some piece of junk, like an M1 Garand, or an '03A3 Springfield, or maybe your friend found an L.C. Smith shotgun, I will take it off your hands for a small transfer fee ($50). If it's REALLY valuable, like an SKS or AK-47, FN-FAL, or AR-15, I might even pay you for it!

[waksupi]

Yep, clean it up. If not worth salvaging the action at least, there is a market for curios like that.

[StarMetal]

If it is a military rifle more then likely it was never registered.

Joe

[350mag]

Tom,
Just send it to me now through district mail. I'll take care of it. Was it in the Yukon or the Achulinguk? What is it? Who found it?
Ken

[Frank46]

Ivan, hey lets see some pics, inquiring minds want to know. More details please. And see what you started, now you have a bunch of guys waiting with baited breath. In fact some of them may not get any sleep until the great mystery is solved. Frank

[Junior1942]

Didn't Lewis & Clark lose two rifles in a river?

[steveb]

Yea and what river,its not the Ohio is it??Wheres the picts!!!!

[grumble]

Not to hijack the thread, but I once found the remnants of a Yellow Boy grown into a cottonwood tree. Could see part of the barrel and part of the action sticking out of a crotch in the trunk. I've always wondered if it was worth going back with a chainsaw.

It was in the Gila Wilderness area, Apache country.

[Junior1942]

Grumble, go back with a digital camera!

[grumble]

Junior, I just might have to do that. Be a fun two day pack-in trip.

[Pystis]

Ivan, I´d love to see pics of your buddy´s finding!

I found barreled action of Finnish M28 or M27 rifle. I was planting trees as a sommerjob some years ago. I saw something sticking in a plowed field. I drag it up to notice it was steel. When I knocked the mud of I saw the remains trigger group.
It was so badly rusted that I could hardly tell what mosin it had been. The bolt was gone as all the ather parts. When I cleaned most of the crud of I found out that there was a brass case in a chamber. The primer was gone so I still don´t know whether its fired or not.
The area where I found the barrel is waayy behind the lines of ww2. I don´t know if it had nothing to do with gun hidings after war. Or maybe it was discarded by poacher due to jam. It is cool to find these things and trying to imagine history of them.

[omgb]

Back in 1977 I found the remains of a model '86 Winchester stuck in the bank of the Missouri River just outside of Wolf Creek Montana. The stock was sticking out at an angle with the barrel and receiver burried in the bank. The wood was badly rotted and the steel was eaten up. This was right after a major flooding as a result of Spring run off. I suspect it had been dropped or it fell off of a horse and was buiied in the mud. Silt and time covered it deeper and it remaind packed in the fine silt until washed free by the shifting river. I gave it to the Museum of the Rockies in Bozeman.

[Ivantherussian03]

Ok, It was found on the Yukon River. It is a 243 . Mostly likely, someone (In Eskimo Country) got excited about a moose and flippped his/her rifle into the water. I will take some pictures and post.

[3584ELK]

My grandfather found a Mauser Type B Sporting Rifle with a RIBBED, half- octagon, 21" barrel in 8x57. It was stuck in the mud, muzzle down. There was a cartridge in the chamber, and the resulting moisture had ringed the chamber at the case shoulder. My grandfather used it for years, shooting 8x57S ammo down that "J" barrel. In 1994, I acquired it from him, had the metal work done, a nice custom stock installed, and rechambered and re-bored to 9.3x64mm. Nice rifle, weighs about 7 1/2 lbs. and kicks like a mule!

Sorry to hi-jack the thread...where's the pics of the "found" rifle???

[Blackwater]

I think a lot more rifles are lost in the rivers, particularly during high water, than most of us realize. It's not real difficult to "get busy" with something, and prop it up on the gunwales, and then have something knock or lever it out, or have a limb catch on the front sight and pull it out as you float by some bushes. Don't ask how I know about this. (PS - At least it was only a .22!).

[carpetman]

Ivantherussian03----Send that rifle to Starmetal. He can pee through the bore to clean it out a little and I guarantee he will shoot one hole groups with it.

[Ivantherussian03]

Ok, the gun in question is now in my pocession. The stock is cracked and slit. The trigger guard is plastic, so it is not too old. I was wrong it is not 243; it is Savage model 110, with 270 winchester stampped on the barrel. The trigger mechanism is rusted and not working, but the rust is mostly in the many joints. The blueing is nearly completely worn off, and no rust is evident anyway, except on the trigger assmbly. The barrel is clogged with very the fine silt that flows in the Yukon River. I took pictures and will try to get them posted tonight.

[steveb]

HEY,
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/steveb3006/joseytext.jpg
:razz: :razz: :razz: :razz:

[steveb]

Ive been waiting on my chance to post a pict like this...Thank Ya!

[Edward429451]

Hey it's worth a try. My buddy got an old Marlin .22 that had been through a fire and wasn't burnt but did get thoroughly rusted from the water even in the barrel. We cleaned it up and put some rounds through it and whoa, it shoots better than his 10/22.

[felix]

The old saying "don't knock it until you try it" is very true statement, unless the object of attention is forbidden by the Boss, either directly or indirectly. ... felix

[StarMetal]

That's right, send that rifle to me and I'll have it winning benchrest in not time. In fact all, send all your questionable powders that you think is bad too. I handle both guns and powder folks don't want. No charge either.

Back to that rifle after I get it shooting holes, I ship in on to Carpetman and he takes it on a geniune cat hunt. Once it passes a real hunt test then it's shipped back to you.....along with the cats mounted head and pelt...that's courtesy of Carpetman.

Joe

[Scrounger]

That's right, send that rifle to me and I'll have it winning benchrest in not time. In fact all, send all your questionable powders that you think is bad too. I handle both guns and powder folks don't want. No charge either.

Back to that rifle after I get it shooting holes, I ship in on to Carpetman and he takes it on a geniune cat hunt. Once it passes a real hunt test then it's shipped back to you.....along with the cats mounted head and pelt...that's courtesy of Carpetman.

Joe

And some jerky...

[Dale53]

You guys are just flat "Bad!!" :razz:

Thanks for the laugh.
Dale53

[carpetman]

Ivan----make a wall hanger out of that river gun. Don't clean it. Leave the signs of the river on it. As Junior1942-pointed out Lewis&Clark lost some guns in the river. Everone will think this is one. Obviously it is not---Jack O'Connor was a small kid and had not invented the .270 when Lewis & Clark were inventing whatever it was they invented. So you can have a placard on the wall mounted hanging that in big BOLD print says LEWIS & Clark-----(in very small print where the person must be close to read it)----did not lose this gun in the river.

[Blackwater]

DAle, they're MUCH worse than that, but no use in scarin' off any "new meat," is there? ;-)

Ivan, FWIW, I've cleaned up a couple of guns that were under salt water (200 yds. from the Gulf coast) for weeks, and it's highly likely that your rifle CAN be restored. The barrel may be shot, and likely the stock too, IIRC (?), but they make those every day, and the gun won't be listed on any "lists" that you may not want it listed on, so .... I'd restore it. I think even the bolt heads can be replaced on a Savage, can't they?

The best stuff I found to clean off the rust was plain old liquid hand soap (NOT detergent - which is a whole 'nother chemistry from soaps), like you probably have in your bathroom. Apply generously and full strength, and brush with increasingly aggressive bristle brushes. Worked better than oil and steel wool, or anything else I came up with. Flush with hot tap water to rinse, and keep repeating until all the rust is gone.

Naval jelly can clean out the pits that are left, once you get down to bare metal. Make SURE to clean that out and neutralize it per directions.

I filed and draw filed the surface where I needed or wanted to, to get a smoother surface, and it was very surprising how few pits were left, and of those, how small they were. Almost unnoticable.

Then too, finding a gun is the "Spirits'" way of presenting you with a new gun, and it'd be BAD karma to offend them by taking such lightly. You HAVE to fix 'er up, or .... well, you do NOT want to know the price for NOT fixin' it up! Just a word to the wise, eh?

[wills]

Ivan----make a wall hanger out of that river gun. Don't clean it. Leave the signs of the river on it. As Junior1942-pointed out Lewis&Clark lost some guns in the river. Everone will think this is one. Obviously it is not---Jack O'Connor was a small kid and had not invented the .270 when Lewis & Clark were inventing whatever it was they invented. So you can have a placard on the wall mounted hanging that in big BOLD print says LEWIS & Clark-----(in very small print where the person must be close to read it)----did not lose this gun in the river.

Obviously it is a Gin-You-Ine Lewis and Clark VINTAGE .270, presented to them in person by Jack O'Connor and worth eleven gazillion dollars if sold on e bay. Now the question is how or whether to remove the vintage rust.

[waksupi]

Try the electrolysis method of rust removal, and I'll be tthe trigger will free up. May take a week of soaking.

[hydraulic]

One day, when I was about fourteen, I was standing around in my dad's gas station when Cabool Chambers drove up and took a Model 12 Duck Gun out of the trunk and turned the gas nozzel on it and washed the sand out of it. He had dropped it out of his boat in the Missouri River the year before, and the river moved in the meantime, and on a hunch he walked out across the sandbar about where he had lost it and saw the front sight sticking out of the sand. He went on killing geese with that gun for years afterwards.

[The Nyack Kid]

gee a savage 110 270 WCF blah yuck .
I recemend that you do what carpetman suggested (maybe a first) and hang it on a wall as is , and spin an interesting tale about it . " yep found this rifle in a BIG pile o'bear poo and that ,grand childern ,is why we's uses real rifles up here in the north country "

[Ivantherussian03]

Here are some of the pics!!

[Ricochet]

I've gotten an old engine running that had been sitting out in the woods for 30 years, full of rainwater, with honeysuckles grown all over it. Tripped over it while hunting. I know guys who've dragged engines out of the water and gotten them running. That rifle's fixable, and the electrolysis method is an excellent suggestion. Another is to stick it in a barrel of diluted molasses and let it ferment for a while.

[StarMetal]

John,

I could see the barrel of molasses thing now "Hey, I found a horse with a rifle inside him".. [smilie=l:

Joe

[carpetman]

Riccochet---Doc,you got a 30 year old engine running---heck I got a Coleman lantern out of a lake that had been there 3 years and it was still burning. Now if Ol Starmetal would add a couple of inches to the groups he shoots,I'd blow the lantern out.

[StarMetal]

Ah aaah ah HA-CHOOOO !!! Oh darn sneeze, made me open my group up to 2 inch...damn damn damn. Okay Ray, blow that dang lantern out.

Joe

[Ivantherussian03]

Can someone explain the "electrolysis method" and what is involved?

[madcaster]

What about people who prop guns,bows and other gear against pickup trucks or lay gear on top of vehicle and then drive away leaving a nice gun-or gear being damaged when it hits the road?
Or people leaving guns leaning against trees while they gut an animal and can't find them or forget them until they get home,these things happen often.
Jeff. :castmine:

[wills]

Can someone explain the "electrolysis method" and what is involved?
See the cleaning topic

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=4257

[floodgate]

What about people who prop guns,bows and other gear against pickup trucks or lay gear on top of vehicle and then drive away leaving a nice gun-or gear being damaged when it hits the road?
Or people leaving guns leaning against trees while they gut an animal and can't find them or forget them until they get home,these things happen often.
Jeff. :castmine:

A friend with a gun-shop many years back was still mumbling to himself when I dropped by. One of his (dumb, wealthy - do they correlate?) customers had brought in his brand-new deluxe Browning Superposed, said the stock broke in half when he shot it the first time and he wanted the company to make good on it ASAP. You could still see the muddy tire track across the wrist.

floodgate

[Ivantherussian03]

thanks guys

[PatMarlin]

I've gotten an old engine running that had been sitting out in the woods for 30 years, full of rainwater, with honeysuckles grown all over it. Tripped over it while hunting. I know guys who've dragged engines out of the water and gotten them running. That rifle's fixable, and the electrolysis method is an excellent suggestion. Another is to stick it in a barrel of diluted molasses and let it ferment for a while.


Ricochet...

How'd ya get the engine going? I'm curious, cause I have a Voltzwagon Diesel engine that's been under a plastic tarp on a pallet out side for 7 years. Condensation's set in pretty good I'd emagine.

[floodgate]

Ricochet:

What sort of engine was it? Automotive? Outboard? Or a "hit-'n'-miss" one-lunger?

floodgate

[waksupi]

http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm


riginally Posted by Ivantherussian03
Can someone explain the "electrolysis method" and what is involved?

[Ricochet]

The engine I got going again was an International Harvester LBB 3-5 HP single cylinder stationary engine. I didn't actually use any electrolysis on it. The piston was tightly stuck into the cylinder, and I got it freed up by taking off the head, standing it on end with the open cylinder upward, pouring it full of Diesel fuel and letting it soak for a couple of weeks. The main bearings weren't frozen. I tried taking the rod cap off, disengaging the rod from the crankshaft, and driving it out with a wooden black and hammer, but couldn't do it and feared I'd break it. I came up with an idea that worked: I put the rod cap back on, but loosely. I could wiggle the flywheel back and forth a little before the wrist pin of the crank would "clunk" against the big end of the rod or the cap. After doing this for a while, the piston started to move. Then I could drive it out with the block. The friend on whose farm the engine was had a set of new rings that fit it. The bore was pitted. I "honed" it a bit with coarse sandpaper and left it like that (and it had adequate compression when put together.) If I were doing that now, I'd degrease the bore, fill the pits with J-B Weld, let it stiffen up for a few minutes, oil a piston ring to keep it from sticking to the stuff, and push it through the bore to smooth off the surface. I'll do that if I take it apart again. The bore's not worn enough to warrant the boring out it would take to get rid of the pits, and I don't want to fool with an oversize piston. Some missing parts to the engine were inside an old 1957 4-door Chevy stacked to the ceiling with car parts. I had to take everything out of it till I found what went with my engine (on the floor, of course) and put it all back in. I remember taking out and replacing most of the parts of a 1934 Chevy Stovebolt Six. The flyweights in the governor's impulse drive were broken, and I found the pieces in the water-oil sludge in the bottom of the crankcase. I had no idea back then (mid-'80s) that there were dealers who sold parts for old engines, and International dealers just laughed. So I found a guy at a local machine shop who silver-soldered the broken weights, and made a set of pushrods from drill rod with the tips hardened. He brazed a broken rocker arm for me, too. He charged me a pittance and wouldn't take more; he was sympathetic and interested in the project. The carburetor (made of zinc alloy) was rather corroded, and the fuel valve needle was badly pitted and eroded. What I did for that was a two-step procedure: I fixed the eroded needle seat by borrowing the needle from a Fairbanks-Morse ZC 52 I had, coating it with Rain-X as a release agent, putting a bit of epoxy on the tip, and running it down snugly. That coated the inside surface of the seat with epoxy, and molded it to the shape of the needle inside it. Now I had a good seat, with the original needle all eroded away and with the screw threads loosely fitting into the hole in the carb body. I reversed the process, coating the inside of the threads and seat in the carb body with Rain-X, coated the needle (which I'd derusted with muriatic acid) with epoxy, and screwed it in. Next day it was really hard to screw out, but I padded the outside of the head with cloth, clamped on a pair of Vise-Grips and got it started. It worked, making a beautifully restored set of threads and perfectly formed needle tip. Oh, I almost forgot how I restored the fuel metering orifice: I found the size of hypodermic needle that most closely matched the hole in the jet of the Fairbanks-Morse, and used it by twirling it between my fingers as a drill to open up a new orifice in the epoxy. That worked, too. I can't remember now exactly why I needed to get the cover off of the left side of the crankcase, but I did for some reason. Loosened the clamp bolt on the flywheel and tried banging around the edges of the flywheel to loosen it, without success. Borrowed a big impact puller and got it off. Learned about Woodruff keys from that. The starting crank on this engine is in a slot near the rim of the flywheel, and returns to position by a spring that was rusted away but had enough left that I could see how it was made. I drilled out the hinge pin, made a model of the spring from soft steel wire and took it to a machine shop to get a new spring made. The guy there was interested, too, and took forever to make it because he had lots of real work to do ahead of it, but then he wouldn't take payment. Made a new pin and installed the crank handle. Finally got around to firing the thing up and realized it was badly slow-timed, as I'd put the magneto in with the wind-up impulse trip mechanism starting to wind up at the firing point, instead of tripping there. (I didn't have any sort of manual for it at the time.) Figured out where it should really go, and corrected that. Had (and still have) problems with the throttle butterfly in the head sticking, which I need to fix. I've got a replacement oiler pipe for it with nasty old sludged up cotton wick in it that I need to replace, and install it. I've also got a valve cover for it that I need to patch up (rust holes) and install. That's the way I tend to be about projects, I get the major difficulties overcome and almost finish it, then set it aside to do something else. I did get it running and call my friend in Alabama who gave it to me, so he could hear it running.
:D

The engine in the foreground of this picture is one like mine, with the big oil bath air cleaner.

http://www.agt.net/public/aharrold/stabsh2.GIF

[Ricochet]

Oh, yeah: Forgot about taking the rusted out gas tank to a welder and getting a new tank made, with the mounting hardware , cap and drain of the old one. Nowadays I'd buy an off-the-shelf one from one of the parts dealers. The welder brazed the mounting strap on slightly misaligned, so I have to leave one mounting bolt out. Not worth fixing that. I made a cut-off bolt head to fill the hole and cover it up.

[Junior1942]

Years ago back in the river bottom behind my house there was an old tractor 2/3 buried in a salt flat caused by oil well runoff. The tractor had those big iron wheels. Nothing stuck out of the ground but the tops of the two wheels, the seat, and the top maybe 1/3 of the engine cowl. I was back in there hunting one day, and it was gone. Whoever dug it up and hauled it away had a heck of a job.

I figured someone rode the tractor back in the swamp hunting and got stuck on the way out of the woods. It was headed away from the river.

[Ricochet]

Yeah, a heck of a job, for sure, but people do get those relics fixed up and working.

For that matter, WWII warplanes that have been on the ocean bottom for 60 years have been restored to flying condition. There's real money in those things, now.

[Junior1942]

My wife at the time wanted me to dig up the old tractor so she could have those big iron wheels for flower beds. I'm glad I didn't. I did, however, plan the dig. I would have cut stout poles and erected a tripod over the back of the tractor, then come-along-ed it upwards after digging around the wheels with a shovel.

[StarMetal]

Junior,

hahahahahahahaha....I have to laugh. For a second there when you said you had planned the dig I was afraid it was going to be to bury your wife "at the time" hahahahahahahaha Oh God, too funny.

On to airplanes

My favorite bring them or it back was they dug up, out of the ice and quite deep too, that P38 Lightening and totally restored it and flew it. Saw it all on the History Channel.

Joe

[StarMetal]

John,

After you got that engine running what do you use it for? That's alot of work.

Joe

[carpetman]

Riccochet---For freeing up frozen pistons etc,baking soda and pour vinegar on it does wonders.

[StarMetal]

I have seen some guys loosen up frozen pistons with muriatic acid.

I've soaked them with oil like John and rocked the crank back and forth also like John did.

Joe

[Pystis]

Junior,
My favorite bring them or it back was they dug up, out of the ice and quite deep too, that P38 Lightening and totally restored it and flew it. Saw it all on the History Channel.

Joe

Was it The Glacier Girl. I´ve seen some video clip where they were shooting P-38´s 20mm cannon they dug up. The ammo still worked. Gosh, that gun recoiled.

[bruce drake]

Go to www.airpirates.com Its a groups of people who search out and receover aircraft wrecks in order to restore them to flying condition. You should check out the operations they've done on the Greenland Ice Cap as well as the Corsair Fighter they pulled out of Lake Washington in the NorthWest.

Bruce

[Ricochet]

After you got that engine running what do you use it for? That's alot of work.
What do I use it for? Same as the others. Sit around and watch & listen to 'em run.

Only one I "do" anything with is my old-fashioned but modern made Indian copy of a Lister 6/1 Diesel. I've got a generator belted up to "Dolly," and I also occasionally belt up a small water pump. I've gone to the big engine show at Portland, Indiana, and set up a tent with Dolly out front. The water pump was circulating water in a tank on a stand set up as "Barbie and Ken's Hot Tub," with them hanging onto the side staring soulfully into each other's eyes (with those big silly grins of theirs) and a little pink "towel" draped over the side. Got lots of smiles from passersby, and soapsuds from my mischievous friends. The generator was powering a microwave oven with which I popped popcorn to give away to strolling spectators, also a refrigerator, electric grill and hotplate which I used to keep myself well fed, and a light I'd turn on when it got dark. Most of the time I sat under the tent playing blues on my guitar and schmoozing with all the guitar players and engine men who dropped by.

That's my idea of putting an engine to good use.

http://oldengine.org/members/culp/ken_barbie.jpg

[floodgate]

Ricochet:

Thanks for the saga of the I-H LBB. Encourages me to finish up my 1917 Fairbanks-Morse "Z" Headless, which was actually in pretty good shape - but all apart - when I got it, along with another carcass which had been shot thru the water-box three times with what looked like a .30-30 (back on topic, guys!). Surpirisingly, Hit-'n'-Miss can supply most of the small (and some large) parts, including the needle valve and seat, so I didn't have to go through the shenanigans you did. But I am having to make up shim packs for the rod (0.198"+/-) and mains (0.086"+/- and 0.082+/-). MSC has 0.022" shim stock laminated up dfrom 0.002" brass, so I can peel layers off as the bearings wear in. One of the guys brought in a Hercules/Arco 2hp from around 1925 that had laid in a creek bottom for 30 years or so, and it runs well now. Man, they made those old "lungers" to last! First photo is the "Z", second is the "Kimmies" ("Good-Ol'-Boys" in Boont-ling) picking away at a Novo vertical from 1909 or so. We'll get it going, too.

Bruce:

An INCREDIBLE job on that Corsair! Brings tears to the old eyes!!

floodgate

[danski26]

In this world of throw away everything, are we crazy for doing things like this? I think not.

[PatMarlin]

What do I use it for? Same as the others. Sit around and watch & listen to 'em run.

Only one I "do" anything with is my old-fashioned but modern made Indian copy of a Lister 6/1 Diesel. I've got a generator belted up to "Dolly," and I also occasionally belt up a small water pump. I've gone to the big engine show at Portland, Indiana, and set up a tent with Dolly out front. The water pump was circulating water in a tank on a stand set up as "Barbie and Ken's Hot Tub," with them hanging onto the side staring soulfully into each other's eyes (with those big silly grins of theirs) and a little pink "towel" draped over the side. Got lots of smiles from passersby, and soapsuds from my mischievous friends. The generator was powering a microwave oven with which I popped popcorn to give away to strolling spectators, also a refrigerator, electric grill and hotplate which I used to keep myself well fed, and a light I'd turn on when it got dark. Most of the time I sat under the tent playing blues on my guitar and schmoozing with all the guitar players and engine men who dropped by.

That's my idea of putting an engine to good use.

http://oldengine.org/members/culp/ken_barbie.jpg

Thanks for the story on you engine.. Ricochet

Hay- I've been wanting to look into those Lister Knock offs, and wondered if I can power a Dayton 8,000 watt belt drive generator with one of those?

Any thoughts on that? If so where did ya buy yours and how much do they cost?

Thanks,

Pat

[Ricochet]

Floodgate, you've got a good one there!

Pat, of course you can power an 8,000 watt generator with one of these, but not to its claimed 8000 watt output. The 6 HP engine is rated at 4.4 KW crankshaft power, and you're just not going to get more out of the generator than out of the engine. That said, the engine is conservatively rated, and mine will actually just get 5 KW out of the attached generator. The rated engine horsepower in this case is a rating that it can safely manage continuaously, so you can ignore the advice on the generator pages about how you have to have an engine rated for about twice as much power as the generator's output. The heavy flywheels can carry you through very brief surge demand.

Generators are usually very optimistically rated. My generator is claimed to be 6 KW, but that's a peak rating. Its circuit breakers actually total up to 4800W nominally.

Here's where I got mine. (It's gone up considerably in price since I got mine. There have been a bunch of disasters running up demand for generators.)
http://www.mastersalesonline.com/voltbelt/index.html
Mine's an AB-60.

[Ricochet]

Oh, I guess you meant, where did I get my engine? I bought it back in late 1999 from the only guy importing them to the U.S. at the time, Mike Montieth of Rutherfordton, North Carolina. He pioneered this business. I paid him the princely sum of $750, a very sweet deal at the time.

I'm tickled to see a term I coined in talking about these things back circa 1998-9 on the Stationary Engine List, "Listeroids," has been adopted by some of the newer dealers. Some of the others, like "Curry Listers" or my personal favorite, Gerald Johnson's appellation of "Caste Iron Listers," haven't caught on so widely.

[StanDahl]

Going way back to the Yellowboy stuck in a tree, in the book Firearms of the American West, 1866-1894, there are all kinds of relics shown, many from riverbeds. There is a photo of an M1866 Winchester carbine that was jammed into "the fork of a tree near Independence, North Dakota, where it had been placed by Red Bear, an Arikara Indian, as an offering to the spirits of the sun. It was recovered in 1932, after the tree had grown around it." It looked relatively intact, the butt stock was pretty weathered, the butt plate was still there. The receiver looked pretty good, and the barrel was pretty rusty. Stan

[PatMarlin]

Thanks Ricochet.

:hijack: -and over. I so sorry.