My first jar of powder

[delmar]

So I went into a hole in the wall gun and reloading supply shop and asked for some powder that is good for .45 ACP
I came home with a pound of Universal Clays for $16.25
How did I do?

[felix]

You did fine. You got 'dit' for 'dat' and both parties agreed that it was a deal, and therefore a trade was made by each party. ... felix

[delmar]

I went to the Hodgdon website to look up load data and now I am a bit confused!

The guy at the store called it "Universal Clays" The choices on the web site are "Hodgdon Universal"
and "Clays Hodgon"

[zxcvbob]

You want the "Universal" load data. The "Clays" powder is much faster. (There's also one in the middle called Hodgdon's International, or International Clays, but there's little or no load data for it)

[delmar]

You want the "Universal" load data. The "Clays" powder is much faster. (There's also one in the middle called Hodgdon's International, or International Clays, but there's little or no load data for it) My confusion is that both choices say "Universal" but the load data is quite different.

edit: oops, no they don't

[zxcvbob]

My confusion is that both choices say "Universal" but the load data is quite different.
edit: oops, no they don't They both say "Clays". :-)

[delmar]

They both say "Clays". :-)

No the Jar has the words Hodgon, Universal and Clays
but the choices to pick from on the website are

"Hodgdon's Universal"

or
"Clays Hodgon"


It's really sort of a mess but I figured it out buy looking at the load data on the jar, even though the bullet I am looking up (.45 acp 155 grn semi wadcutter), is not on the jar.

The .45 acp 185 grn semi wadcutter is, however, listed on the jar, and matches the data listed for "Hodgdon's Universal" on the website.

[Heavy lead]

I don't use Universal much anymore, but not because it didn't work good, in fact one of the best and cleanest applications for it I ever used was in the 45acp, excellent. I still have a couple hundred rounds still loaded up with Universal.
On another note I do use a lot of Clays (plain faster burning) for 12gauge target, great powder, especially for auto's.

[imashooter2]

No the Jar has the words Hodgon, Universal and Clays
but the choices to pick from on the website are

"Hodgdon's Universal"

or
"Clays Hodgon"


It's really sort of a mess but I figured it out buy looking at the load data on the jar, even though the bullet I am looking up (.45 acp 155 grn semi wadcutter), is not on the jar.

The .45 acp 185 grn semi wadcutter is, however, listed on the jar, and matches the data listed for "Hodgdon's Universal" on the website.


Hodgdon, in their infinite wisdom, created 3 powders with very different burn rates and used "Clays" in the name each one of them. It has confused thousands before you and it will confuse thousands more in the future.

[delmar]

Hodgdon, in their infinite wisdom, created 3 powders with very different burn rates and used "Clays" in the name each one of them. It has confused thousands before you and it will confuse thousands more in the future.
I think I am going to take a sharpie and cross out the word clays on the jar. Just so I don't forget and never have to think through this one again!

[BCB]

One of the reasons I stayed away from these powders is the DANG CONFUSION that has always been associated with them.

I have a burn rate chart that lists 246 powders. Now then, I know that burn rates can change for any given powder depending on its application, but here is what the chart shows.

It lists Hodgdon Clays at or near Red Dot…

It lists Hodgdon International and Hodgdon International Clays as numbers 31 and 32 and they are at or near AA#2…

It lists Hodgdon Universal and Hodgdon Universal Clays as numbers 48 and 49 and they are at or near AA#5…

Now then, I am wondering if the ones listed side by side are the same powders, that is, might H.I. and H.I.C. be the same powder with different names... And might H.U. and H.U.C. be the same powders with different names?

CONFUSING—That's why I stayed away…

Just a thought…BCB

[delmar]

It lists Hodgdon Universal and Hodgdon Universal Clays as numbers 48 and 49 and they are at or near AA#5…

Now then, I am wondering if the ones listed side by side are the same powders, that is, might H.I. and H.I.C. be the same powder with different names... And might H.U. and H.U.C. be the same powders with different names?I am now certain that H.U. and H.U.I. are one in the same. at least I was able to discern, by comparing the load data on the jar to the load data on the "reloading data center" that their load data is exactly the same on 3 specific, different handgun bullets.


CONFUSING—That's why I stayed away…

Just a thought…BCBI don't blame you a bit! had I known what it was going to take to be confident of what I had, I would have stayed away too. but since I have done the leg work, I will use it with confidence! If I like the results I will buy the same product again. Assuming they have it in stock next time!

[Rocky Raab]

Here's the scoop.

When Hodgdon introduced those three powders, they were intended for shotgun sports. Hence, they all had "Clays" in their name. Nice marketing idea, but it introduced massive confusion in the real world. All three utilized a new powder technology, and so Hodgdon stuck with the "Clays Technology" tag but changed the names to Clays, Universal and International.

If you have old cans marked Universal Clays, be assured that it is the same stuff that is today called simply Universal.

Universal is almost a grain-for-grain replacement for Unique. So you can use that as a guideline of sorts to be certain which powder you are dealing with. In the unlikely event that you find no data for Universal with a given set of components, but can find data for Unique, you may safely use the same Start to mid-range charges with Universal. Maximum loads might NOT be the same, so use extreme caution past mid-level loads.

Universal is a very good powder. I use it in preference to Unique in most handgun situations because Universal does meter better and does burn cleaner.

[uncle joe]

Mr Hogdon will be glad to answer your questions by e-mail. I have sent inquires to them before and received an answer very quickly by him personally. Very nice to deal with. You can't be to careful working with these powders that have close names and numbers and very different burn rates. I found out the hard way with 3031 and imr3031.
JE

[BCB]

uncle joe, you may indeed be correct about that “close numbers on the burning rate chart” causing problems, but I have never had a problem—guess I have been lucky for 40 years. I can see no problem with the 3031’s (Surplus version?) or the 4350’s or the 4831’s. Handloader magazine even did an article on the 4350’s and they are basically “interchangeable”, BUT ONE MUST USE COMMON SENSE! Start with the lowest charge listed…

I think Rocky Raab sort of confirmed what I was thinking about the powders being the same but with a different name…

That was certainly a very irresponsible move by Hodgdon...

BCB

[delmar]

Mr Hogdon will be glad to answer your questions by e-mail. I have sent inquires to them before and received an answer very quickly by him personally. Very nice to deal with. You can't be to careful working with these powders that have close names and numbers and very different burn rates. I found out the hard way with 3031 and imr3031.
JE

OK I found the contact info on the website. It says "If you have a safety problem or concern - DO NOT EMAIL - CALL US DIRECTLY " So I am going to try to call Monday since confirming I have the correct load data is a safety concern. Thanks for the heads up Uncle Joe!

[Rocky Raab]

Normally, I would not drop names, but it is pertinent here. As a reloading writer, I have direct contact with Bruce Hodgdon. You may take it from me that Hodgdon Universal is exactly the same as the earlier-named Universal Clays. Any Hodgdon load data with the word "Universal" in it will apply to the powder pictured in the first post.

[felix]

When you buy powder, or any chemistry for that matter (except for maybe high dollar drugs), assume that the next volume you get will be different. Therefore, it is always best to purchase in large lots. If you have good storage conditions, you can get even larger lots. Don't buy powder to test with, in other words, unless experimentation is your primary fun which is by definition contrary to consistent volume production. ... felix

[Rocky Raab]

Good advice from felix -- unless you happen to be a reloading writer! Then you need darn near every powder they make and small batch testing is ALL you do!

Last time I counted, I had about half the commonly available powders in my locker, usually only one pound of each unless it's a powder I use a lot. I decided not to have any Vihta-Vouri powders even though they are superb products - and I still have 75+ different kinds on hand. Sheeesh!

[zxcvbob]

With some powders, 1 pound is a large lot! (it's taking me forever to use up that pound of Titegroup)

[3rptr]

Ok, I'll take exception to Felix's statement, if only to shake the boat a bit.

I doubt anyone can rely on the quality of the chemistry of high dollar drugs any more or less than others for one reason... there would be more profit in counterfeiting an expensive name brand than a generic inexpensive one.

Of course I'll agree, a larger volume purchase is best for consistent loads, once you have found the powder that performs best for your application. Then all you need be concerned with is perhaps freezing temperature in winter, and 110% in summer with no shade.
Large difference in performance for bottleneck cases near max!

If it wasn't for the challenge, handloading would just be for cheapskates!
And I am certainly one of them.

[felix]

There is NO argument there. We bought some same brand drugs in Mexico once from a "legit" drug store with air conditioning and all that. The drugs obtained were not as potent as "prescribed". Store's fault? Shipper's fault? Or, was it intentional by the manufacturer? An honest mistake? Don't think so. Talking about at least a 50 percent discount, so something had to give. Again, no free lunch. ... felix

[41mag]

AS was mentioned the Clays part of the labeling is like the Extreme part on the rifle powders. Simply a line of powders in which several different ones fall into.

And yes it can and has been cornfusing to many.

[dougader]

I guess I don't get the confusion. In the Clays Line of powders there are three powders:

1) Clays
2) International
3) Universal

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d132/dougader/ClaysPowders.jpg

[Dave Berryhill]

My first jar of powder
That's kind of like saying, "My first piece of crack cocaine" or "My first baggie of heroin."

Welcome to the addiction! :D

[delmar]

That's kind of like saying, "My first piece of crack cocaine" or "My first baggie of heroin."

Welcome to the addiction! :D
A little less destructive, but some in the anti gun camp, would disagree!