45-110 in 45-120?

[NVWalt]

I was given a Pedersoli 45-120 and of course I can not find 120 brass. So I was wanting to know if anyone here has tried out 110 brass in it. Kinda like the .22 S Long, and Long Rifle thing. I will try it but if anyone else has, I would like to hear about it. I don't suspect it won't work but seem to think the accuracy may be a little less than sterling...Thank you...Walt

[Don McDowell]

Yes you could fire 110 in a 120. Accuracy probably won't amount to much and leading will likely be horrific.

You might want to check the Norma 45 basic brass, I think it's 3.25 long. Cabelas carries it as well as Midway.
You should be able to get 3.25 brass from Buffalo Arms.

[SharpsShooter]

They ain't cheap by a long sight, but Buffalo Arms has em

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,6589.html

Or Midway

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1311162501

or Track of the wolf

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(ijxoinrgiidh4c45qpy3ngmx))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=2&subId=26&styleId=75&partNum=CASE-45-120




SS

[NVWalt]

Thank you Don,
I will keep on a trucking on this. Norma was out of brass for it and doesn't seem to be wanting to make any more from what I was told when I ordered some from Midway.
I sorta really figured it would go bang but be about as accurate as my golfball mortar LOL..Thanks again...Walt

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Good way to ruin a chamber too.


The Lunger

[freedom475]

I bought my 45-20 brass from Huntington Die Specialties....this was great brass and it cost $2 each...lasted forever too.

I don't think they have them listed but I had my dealer call them and they had it in stock.

[Ron B.]

Good Colorado Morning!
Yes, as others have written you can shoot 45-70 through 45-120 in your P brand!
But, nothing but 45-120 will be accurate beyond 60 yards, or so.

You may also be able to find brass by calling C Sharps, and/or Shiloh. You will spend around $2 a piece.

I have 10 (200 pieces) boxes of RCBS 45 Basic (Collectible) I may be proded into selling. You never see this stuff for sale. I opened one box, breaking the seal just to see condition. It's "AS NEW!"

Thanks!
GRB

[Limey]

Hi Lunger,

I cannot find info on the length of 45 - 120 cartridge cases, please can you tell me?......i found out that 45 - 110's are 2 7/8 ins.

Why will shooting 45 - 110's in a 45 - 120 ruin the chamber?......we are talking BP pressure here.....so why will that ruin the chamber?......surely not gas cutting?....and shooting cast lead bullets....in relation to the steel of the chamber this is really soft....and post shooting any fouling build up will be cleaned out wouldn't it?

Wouldn't shooting 110's in a 120 chamber be like shooting .38's in a .357 cylinder?

And if the bullet was set well out of the case wouldn't that compensate for the chamber difference?....I know those 'torpedos' that you mile shooters use are really long so there would be loads of length to do this....probably even enough to engage into the rifling.

I'm always looking to learn something new and I can't work out why it will ruin a chamber, please can you explain, many thanks.

Safe shooting,

Limey

[Don McDowell]

Limey, the 45-120 case is 3.25 inches long.
You'll have to wait a week or so to continue the discussion with Kenny. He's in Phoenix to shoot in the America's Cup Creedmore event.

[Limey]

Thanks Don for the case length info.

What's your view on why just 3/8's would ruin a chamber?.....from what I've read on the Forum it seems many people have 45 - 70's that have chambers longer than spec.....more like 45 - 90's in some instances and they seem to have been happily shooting with those guns for ages.

Safe shooting,

Limey

[Ron B.]

Okay, I'm Ron; not Don. But, I have an opinion!

Unless you plan to shoot really hot 45-110, I don't think shooting them in your 45-120 will hurt anything. However, it will definitely dirty up your chamber. And, if you do decide, or find some 45-120s you'll need to make sure your chamber is clean before shooting them.

And, correct IMO. Shooting 45-110 in a 45-120 is similar to shooting 38s in a 357 Mag.
Just more bango!

By the way, there's plenty of 45-120 brass out there; all you have to do is pay up to play. :)
GRB

[Don McDowell]

I don't have any opinion on whether or not it would ruin a chamber, but I do know Kenny well enough that if he say it'll ruin it, then he's probably got something solid to back him up.
I have one of those infamous longchambered Italians, and can tell you I was not happily shooting it , until I figured out how far out of spec that chamber is. Now that I trim 45-90 brass just bit so it fits properly I am much happier with the rifle. Lesson learned buying cheap , only saves you money for a short while.:roll:

[montana_charlie]

Wouldn't shooting 110's in a 120 chamber be like shooting .38's in a .357 cylinder?
When you consider that most of those revolver rounds are loaded with smokeless and jacketed bullets, the differences are rather notable. The bullets don't obturate into the 1/10th-inch gap, so a bit of powder fouling is all that might accumulate.

Black powder fouling, lead, and bullet lube...all packed into a 3/8th-inch gap is another story.


from what I've read on the Forum it seems many people have 45 - 70's that have chambers longer than spec.....more like 45 - 90's in some instances
Those 'deep' chambers are usually (like) 30 thousandths over...not three tenths.

And those who have the issue stretch their cases to the correct length...or buy longer brass and trim it back, like Don did.

CM

[BPCR Bill]

I just recieved the 2009 Huntingtons catalog, and they list Norma 45 basic brass at $34.98 per 20. That's the 3 1/4" stuff. The 110 brass at 2.88" is the same price. As always, call for availability.

Now, for shooting short cases in these rifles, I'd take a wild guess and say one of the drawbacks to that practice is increased gas blow-by past the projectile. Imagine what that does to your lube before the boolit ever gets to the rifling. The boolit has that big area to wiggle around in, then it gets to slam into the lands and grooves, obturating even more and becoming quite distorted. Once it gets started down the tube, no telling what the base is like, let alone the driving bands. Once it gets out of the muzzle the boolits axis is no where near that of the bore. So, where is the accuracy potential? It's probably back there in the chamber with all that shaved off lead. You would have achieved firing the rifle, but to little or no practical effect other than the satisfying cloud of smoke and the noise. (And the recoil. Lets not forget the recoil.) I hope, in my own not so technical way, I have been of some help with this.

Kind Regards,
Bill

[Knarley]

What I did for my IAB was start a boolit into the case, (un powdered and un-primed) with the case opened up enough to allow the projectile to slide into the case. Slide it all the way in and close the breach. Then gentley remove the round and measure the length. Do this more than once so you are sure your gettin the same length. That is where your projectile is touching the lands. You want the bullet to be just short of touching, so adjust the length to that and load yer rounds. Ifn, the lead is hangin out a little further than usual so what? Just keep dirt out of the grease grooves and you'll be fine,..... works slick fo me anyway.
If later you find the right brass, you will already have figgered out your OAL!
Hope this helps a bit. :castmine:
Knarley Bob

[Montana Ron]

The guy who says shooting a 45-110 in a 45-120 will distroy the chamber doesn't know what he's talking about.......45-70's in 45-90 work and if you seat the bullet out a bit it will shoot
just fine on paper..........the only problem will be if you mix 110's and 120s as the powder residue
from the shorter 110's could obstruct the seating of the 120 if the fouling gets hard and crunchy.
I have done this several times over the last 45 years of shooting black powder cartridges and
just think about the guys in the 1870's.........they shot WHATEVER would chamber and fit down the hole...........45-70 in 45-90 on and on and I NEVER have seen or heard of such foolishness.... If you want to fill the case with Bullseye then you got a problem and the throat
will suffer but so will the shooter................

[Don McDowell]

Bill your pretty close in your guesstimation of what happens when you have cases to short. The chamber on my Italian 74 is fully .2 long. Trimming 45-90's back to 2.3 works just fine, and stops the necessary lead mining after every 10 rounds.

[NVWalt]

This has been interesting anyways. I have located and am getting some 120 brass. I figuered 110 in a 120 chamber would work but that the accuaracy would be about like my mortar. I have been wanting that gun to make some noise for awhile now and will be able to.
Thank you all for the responce...Walt

[Don McDowell]

Well keep us posted on how it works out for you Walt.
Solme of those 120's have a pretty generous freebore, and get a bit finicky about shooting well.

[Lead pot]

When I was a Kid of 11 years old I was more or less restricted to shooting a .22 short in my Winchester single shot rifle.
Well after a period I managed to get some .22 long rifle shells and found out in a hurry I had to use a cleaning rod getting the empty cases out.
What happens is shooting a short in a long rifle chamber eroded the chamber at the end of the case mouth.
With this new steel they now use it might not happen to fast, but I sure would not do it from my past experiences.

[BPCR Bill]

The guy who says shooting a 45-110 in a 45-120 will distroy the chamber doesn't know what he's talking about.......45-70's in 45-90 work and if you seat the bullet out a bit it will shoot
just fine on paper..........the only problem will be if you mix 110's and 120s as the powder residue
from the shorter 110's could obstruct the seating of the 120 if the fouling gets hard and crunchy.
I have done this several times over the last 45 years of shooting black powder cartridges and
just think about the guys in the 1870's.........they shot WHATEVER would chamber and fit down the hole...........45-70 in 45-90 on and on and I NEVER have seen or heard of such foolishness.... If you want to fill the case with Bullseye then you got a problem and the throat
will suffer but so will the shooter................

Ron, I guess for this thread we are just trying to point this shooter in the right direction for accuracy. To paraphrase Mr Shilen, there is "Pretty Good Accuracy" and "Darn Good Accuracy". I have no argument that the hunters on the frontier shot whatever was available to them. That being said, they were interested in Pretty Good Accuracy, good enough to put groceries on the table. During this same time period, the shooters back east that competed at Creedmoor did not use just anything that would fit the hole, as they were shooting for "Darn Good Accuracy", and that is our quest here. I'm also sure that one could shoot a 45-70 in a 45-90 or whatever chamber "In a Pinch" to get game, but I am sure if it is done on a regular basis there will be erosion in the front of the chamber, and that will eventually lead to sticking cases. I've seen enough vintage Sharps (and shot a couple) to know that those chambers were not in the best of condition and required re-lining. I just don't like to see a new shooter expect some fabulous accuracy out of a rifle and not be able to attain that goal. Shooting these rifles is alot of fun, but placing in a match is alot of fun too. By the way, I did see a Pedersoli Sharps that was fired with a chamber full of pistol powder. What chamber?

Regards,
Bill

[Knarley]

So even by moving the boolit forward one would still be fouling the chamber more than not...........I hadn't even thought of that. With that being said, I guess it would be a good idea to finish trimming my over size brass to the right length for that IAB of mine.
I hate it when I learn somethin'[smilie=w:
Regards,
Knarley

[SWAGE-X]

NVWalt:
Cabellas has Norma .45 Basic brass on sale for $63.00 a bag of 50.
Just ordered 4 bags for myself.
BOB

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Mr Mt Ron,

I have observed 6 original Sharps Rifles that had 45-70's fired in 2-7/8 chambers and must of been many times the chamber is ruined right at the end of the 45-70 case.

Telling Me, I dont know what I am talking about when I have first hand viewing of guns ruined with using short cases in the chamber I must take exception too your comments sir.

The fella wanted to know if he could use 110 brass in a 3.25 chamber he can and he will ruin the chamber with repeated firings with too short of brass.

Once or twice no you wont ruin a chamber but repeated firings most surly will.

It is you sir that is full of fecal mater.

Kenny Wasserburger

[BPCR Bill]

Mr Mt Ron,

I have observed 6 original Sharps Rifles that had 45-70's fired in 2-7/8 chambers and must of been many times the chamber is ruined right at the end of the 45-70 case.

Telling Me, I dont know what I am talking about when I have first hand viewing of guns ruined with using short cases in the chamber I must take exception too your comments sir.

The fella wanted to know if he could use 110 brass in a 3.25 chamber he can and he will ruin the chamber with repeated firings with too short of brass.

Once or twice no you wont ruin a chamber but repeated firings most surly will.

It is you sir that is full of fecal mater.

Kenny Wasserburger

That was worth the wait. How did you do at the Creedmoor match Kenny?

Regards,
Bill

[Don McDowell]

:-D yes Bill that was pretty good.
Kenny won the scope class with his trusted old Shiloh 45 2 7/8.
Jim Terry also did a rather good job of representing Wyoming , I believe he was high expert.
Anyways the results can be found here
www.arizonasharpshooters.com

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I did pretty good at Phoenix,

Sunday the last day of Creedmoor after 900 yards Doc Lay had a 180 going into the 1000 yard line, Mike Rix was tied with him and SO was a fella by the name of Kenny Wasserburger.

At 1000 the Doc showed us all how it was done.

Jim Terry actually ended up 3rd Expert overall, RM got it a bit mixed up, I took First Expert Sunday and also ended up Edging Darrel Tonn For Scope Class Champion.

Shot well enough on Sunday to make up lost points on Sat.

The Lunger
Kenny Wasserburger

[Limey]

Hi Kenny,

My question earlier in this Thread was ''what is the process that will ruin the chamber?''......I would like to understand just what will happen please.

....will it be gas cutting?.......chemical corossion?.....something else?

.....assuming that a proper clean up and lubing is done after each shooting session won't any corrosive residue be removed?

I understand that shooting short rounds in a longer chamber is not ballisticaly ideal, I likened the set up to the shooting of a 38 round in 357 cylinder.....where, if the build up of crud is not cleaned out regularly it can lead to chambering problems......same with 44 Special in a 44 mag cylinder.

Also if the bullet in the short case was loaded well out so it just touched the rifling would it not cancel out the problem?

Always looking to learn something and avoid uneccessary wear, tear and abuse on my own guns.

Safe shooting,

Limey

[Kenny Wasserburger]

IN all Cases deep pitting was observed, from gas cutting I would guess. I think it would cause some roughing that then would allow fouling to gather then with no way to get it all out.

But By all means dont pay attention to my opinon fire away.

The Lunger

[Knarley]

Well for what it's worth, I myself have learned alot from this thread. I've been shootin BPCR for 'bout 6 years and I'll admit I'm still a babe in the woods. I'm not gonna take anyones side here, I would just like to see everyone take a deep breath, and remember we can disagree without injuring the students, nameley me.[smilie=1:
Regards to all,
Knarley

[Limey]

Hi Lunger,

My money was on gas cutting as the root cause of the problem as well.....thank you for your reply.

Are your observations from original, period guns?......steel was not so good back then as todays superior materials......but even still, I'm sure extended use of a short cartridge in a long chamber will result in problems.

Safe shooting,

Limey

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Limey,

All were ORIGINAL Sharps rifles

The Lunger

[powderburnerr]

most of the chamber damage was probvably caused by the corrosive priming compound , much more likely than the powder fouling ot heat ,, I have a 50-70 barrel that shows these symptoms and they are very consistant with the length of the 50 carbine round , firing a 50-70 in the barrel makes new cases that are almost perfect 50 carbine length . the few that do not break are very dimpled and rough all around the diamater of the case................jmho.......Dean