Idiot's guide to PP; please help

[Johnny bravo]

Hi all[smilie=s:
I am a long way from making PP bullets but I am very keen to know what this is all about as I want to try it one day. I have read some of the threads in this forum on the topic. However, I am not yet clear on the subject:veryconfu. So, please bear with me if my questions sound silly.

1. I notice PP bullets are different from the normal grooved ones I shoot. How do you make them; is it cast in a mould as per usual?

2. I have been reading about people down sizeing their bullet diameters etc; how is this done?

Thanks again.

ATB

[pdawg_shooter]

All my paper patch bullets are grooved. I start with standard for caliber, size them to bore diameter, +.001/.0015. I patch them to throat diameter. I have had smooth sided moulds made for patching but have always had better luck with grooved. I have sold all my smooth sided mouulds. I do my sizing with push through dies. Started out by lapping Lee dies to the size I needed, but now I make my own.

[yeahbub]

Johny Bravo, welcome to the arcana of paper patching. It's pretty easy to do and relatively easy to get good results with. If you are already casting boolits, you are only a step or two removed from paper patching. Whatever sizing equipment you use for sizing/lubing conventional cast boolits can also be used to prepare PPB's for use in the same calibers. There are molds specifically for PPing and they are handy to have, but once I got the knack, I use the same molds as for conventional grooved boolits and get very good results. In fact, PPing can expand the applicability of a given mold by enabling you to patch boolits up to the next caiber, such as casting a bunch of .310-.315 dia .30 cal's and wrapping them with two or three wraps of paper and arriving at the appropriate dia for 8x57, .257's can be patched up to .265 or so for use in the 6.5mm Swede, etc. They'll take a good bit of sizing down as well. I size the castings to .309, put on two wraps, arriving at a dia of .318 and size them down to .311 for use in the European .30's of .310 groove dimension. A great many different papers of varying thickness are used, but I've gotten to the point where I use only 100% cotton drafting vellum, usually .0025 thick. It's tough paper, even when wet and I don't have to be so concerned about being overly ham-handed and tearing the patches when putting them on and twisting the tail. Post your questions and we'll share what we can.

[Johnny bravo]

Thank you gents. It’s getting much clearer now, but keep them coming if you don’t mind:-D

But how do you downsize the diameter of an existing bullet? Is it through the sizers that come with the lubrisizers? I have only been casting for 7 months and reloading for less than 3 years, so my equipment and knowledge is at kindergarden level to say the least. And as you may know, our shooting facilities are also quite limited due to the low number of shooters and stupid laws:roll:

Rgds.

[pdawg_shooter]

I "downsize" my bullets using a push through die like the Lee die. In fact I started out using Lee dies lapped to the size I needed. Now I make my own. The important thing is to size the bullet to BORE size +.001/.0015 and then patch. I now use almost exclusivity 16# paper to patch with. After drying 16# will increase the diameter .010, + or - .001. In today's rifling that seems to be just about right. With the proper BHN I have yet to find a velocity limit with paper patching. Pure lead, with 2% tin added for fill out, 2200fps is easy to reach. A BHN of 16 easily handles 3000. Opens a whole new world for cast bullets! Have fun, you will be amazed what you can do with a little bit of paper!

[docone31]

I use the Lee Sizing system.
For my .30s and .303 British, I downsize the prime casting to .308. I then wrap twice with either lined notebook paper, or 8 X 11 Printer paper.
Just got back from the range yesterday.
The patches outperformed the jacketeds noticeably.
I also prefer standard bullet molds for paper patching. I had read of roughing up the prime casting, then wrapping. Why not downsize lube type boolitts, and use the remaining lands to grab the paper. It works real well for me. They load well, fire well, and are great to wrap.

[yeahbub]

The tools I use for sizing to the correct dia's are a Lyman 450 Lubri-sizer and for others, the press-mounted Lee push-through dies. Either will work well enough, though, for speed, I prefer the Lee push-through type. It's possible to cast at, say, .312 dia., patch them +.008-.010 to .320-.322, let them dry, smear a little soft lube on the paper and size them all the way down to .311 without hurting anything. My usual practice is similar to pdawg's method of reducing the casting diameter somewhat in my .309 push-through, patching, then sizing the PPB to the final dia of .311 in that push-through. Pdawg speaks of taking his all the way down to bore dia., which are what PP molds typically cast to, but I don't have a .300 or .301 die (maybe someday Lee will offer one). It can be a useful step if you're patching hard alloys like linotype. There's been a time or two that the alloy was hard enough to pinch through the paper as it went into the sizer, but it's really not necessary to have such hard alloys when PP'ing. That paper jacket goes a long way toward protecting the boolit from the effects of the trip down the barrel and softer alloys can be made to really move, as pdawg notes. The one instance I can think of where a very hard alloy would be necessary is when the boolit is one of those with a long, slender church steeple of an ogive, hence leaving a large mass of the shape unsupported. These designs can be made to shoot accurately but not up to the velocities their shape might suggest. Under heavy acceleration the nose will slump a bit off center, ruining accuracy. About 1800-2000 fps has been pretty much the limit in my experience, so I stick with designs that have a shorter ogive and increased cylindrical bearing surface, which I can get to full jacketed-bullet velocities with no loss of precision. My usual alloy for this is water-quenched wheel weights which achieve full hardness in ten days or so.

[pdawg_shooter]

The tools I use for sizing to the correct dia's are a Lyman 450 Lubri-sizer and for others, the press-mounted Lee push-through dies. Either will work well enough, though, for speed, I prefer the Lee push-through type. It's possible to cast at, say, .312 dia., patch them +.008-.010 to .320-.322, let them dry, smear a little soft lube on the paper and size them all the way down to .311 without hurting anything. My usual practice is similar to pdawg's method of reducing the casting diameter somewhat in my .309 push-through, patching, then sizing the PPB to the final dia of .311 in that push-through. Pdawg speaks of taking his all the way down to bore dia., which are what PP molds typically cast to, but I don't have a .300 or .301 die (maybe someday Lee will offer one). It can be a useful step if you're patching hard alloys like linotype. There's been a time or two that the alloy was hard enough to pinch through the paper as it went into the sizer, but it's really not necessary to have such hard alloys when PP'ing. That paper jacket goes a long way toward protecting the boolit from the effects of the trip down the barrel and softer alloys can be made to really move, as pdawg notes. The one instance I can think of where a very hard alloy would be necessary is when the boolit is one of those with a long, slender church steeple of an ogive, hence leaving a large mass of the shape unsupported. These designs can be made to shoot accurately but not up to the velocities their shape might suggest. Under heavy acceleration the nose will slump a bit off center, ruining accuracy. About 1800-2000 fps has been pretty much the limit in my experience, so I stick with designs that have a shorter ogive and increased cylindrical bearing surface, which I can get to full jacketed-bullet velocities with no loss of precision. My usual alloy for this is water-quenched wheel weights which achieve full hardness in ten days or so.

Lee will build any size you want for about 20 bucks, or you can do as I did and lap out a .284 to .301. Took about 20 minutes and worked great!

[yeahbub]

Pdawg, I didn't know Lee would do it so cheaply. How did you do the lapping? From .284 to .301 would require removing .0075 on a side. Back when I was a machinist with access to a Sunnen hone, it would have been cake, but doing it with a dowel and sandpaper seems like a big job. Man, those machines were great! Maybe I'm spoiled now.

[Lead pot]

I like to know how you guys are running a bullet through a Lyman sizer that is .017 over sized from .284 to .301 with out bending the handle on the Lyman or running it through the lee die with out shaving lead, not alone the paper.
I cant even run a lead core .010 over sized through a swage die with out shaving lead.???????

[Nobade]

You don't want to try that with a lubrisizer. You use push through dies like Lee makes. They can reduce a bullet a considerable amount in one pass.

[pdawg_shooter]

I lap mine put using a 1/4" steel rod split to hold emery cloth. I start with 320 grit and finish with crocus cloth. I spin it in an electric drill and flush with Brakfree CLP while lapping. Doesent take long at all.

[bcp477]

Bullet sizing dies do not "shave lead" to resize a bullet. This is a misunderstanding of how they work. They are not designed to reduce the diameter of the bullet by REMOVING any material - but rather, by forcing the bullet into a smaller diameter. So, what happens is that the bullet alloy "flows" as the bullet is forced through the die. What happens to the extra lead ?.... you might ask. It stays as part of the bullet - the bullet simply gets LONGER, as the diameter is reduced.

[Nrut]

ATB
I order my push thru sizer's from Buckshot an member on this forum...He'll make any size you want and they are cheaper, better and delivered faster than LEE...:)