Pickeled Brass Jackets

[BT Sniper]

One of my biggest chalenges has been solved. Must give thanks to Bohica2xo for posted info on this technique. I guess I should have paid more attention in chemistry class because this worked great.

After annealing the brass case it has taken me many hours in a vibrating tumbler to get it to shine again. Less then an hour in a solution of viniger, water and salt got better results in far less time. I was impressed to say the least.

I have been experimenting with bounding cores and have had good results with just a drop of liquid souldering flux. Cooking the jacket and core till the lead melts is all it took. An interesting side effect is that the brass turns a copper color almost pinkish. After soaking in the pickel solution it cleaned up and now looks very close to a factory copper bullet. Amazing.

Some one mentioned using a ph balancing pool solutuion to pickel the brass with for better results but I can't find the post. Anyone care to clue me in again.

Will post some pics when I can.

Good shooting

[beanflip]

heres a link for some cleaners

http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm#Sizing

[bohica2xo]

Most of those liquid solder fluxes are some sort of zinc chloride. You can probably get enough flux in a case by wiping it with a Q-Tip and a bit of flux. Pickeled cases are almost clean enough to solder without flux - it will not take much.

The flux strips the zinc from the brass alloy on the surface of the case, so you get a coper color. The used pickling solution has copper in it, so it just plates out on the surface of the freshly soldered case... probably have 25 millionths of an inch worth of copper if you do it right. Ain't chemistry fun?

After you have added the lead, cases will tumble finish very quickly because of the added mass. If you want a high polish before forming a bullet, a quick tumble in fresh shells or cobs will shine them up.

B.

[BT Sniper]

B.

This is totaly cool. You discribed it to a "T". I got the exact results you are talking about and it seems to make some sence to me now. I have used a Q-tip to apply the flux and it worked. Then I tried a dropper with one drop per case and it was to much. My next thought to try is using a small mist or spray (like a cologne spray bottle) to apply a fine mist of flux to a couple hundred cases at a time. Then place a core in the case and melt all at same time over stove top.

The copper plated perfect on the fluxed bonded jackets. The pickel allso cleaned the annealed empty cases clean enough to eat off. Awsome! I would guess the more I use the pickel solution the faster it will plate a empty case. Would this seem correct?

Pickeled some of my brass jackets with seated core and got a perfect copper plating. 1 Hour in the tumbler shined it up and 3 hours removed it. Very Cool!

My only problem now is wether I like the looks of a brass bullet or copper bullet. What else you got to amaze me with? I'm up for a challenge or extending one to you guys. I apperently did not pay attention in chem class.


Question...does the pickeling of the brass weeken it in any way? Could I copper plate a shootable brass case to turn it a copper color just for the fun of it and still shoot it? Does the copper plating make a difference in the friction between bullet and barrel over a brass jacket?

I'll defently have to take some pics.

Got to go more latter.

Brian

[bohica2xo]

Brian:

Those fluxes are fairly powerful - they were meant for soldering dirty stuff. A drop or two of a flux like Ruby Fluid goes a very long way... and the "spray" from a small brush will eat small holes in a tee shirt. Be mindful of the overspray.

The good news is the liquid fluxes are water based - you can dilute them a bit for your spray application. Start with a 50-50 mix of flux & water. Give a few cases a mist, and try to solder your cores in. If it works, dilute some more. If it needs to be stronger, add flux to the mix. Once you find the dilution that gives predictable results... write it down someplace.

Yes the pickle solution will pick up more copper over time. The "black" on your annealed cases is copper oxide & zinc oxide. The copper ends up in solution (the blue color) and the zinc ash drops out (the black crud in the bottom of the storage container). The fluxed cases have no zinc in the surface - they are more or less passivated. Plating of copper on clean brass or steel is almost immediate, and does not require electricity.

Pickling cases does not weaken them, as long as you don't soak them for weeks. Years ago there was a commercial acid case cleaner on the market called "Case Brite". It was sold as a dry powder to be mixed with water. It was strong enough to leave a satin finish on cases in a few minutes. I never saw a treated case fail, but I suppose it was possible if you overdid it.

Copper plating a few molecules onto the outside of the case or bullet should have no noticable effect on pressures or drag. Copper & brass have similar stick/slip properties - both of which are much "stickier" than nickel. Can you tell the difference shooting nickel pistol brass?

When making bullets from annealed pistol cases, you should always be careful to quarrantine the annealed brass so that it does NOT get loaded as a regular cartridge. I know we have talked about this in the past, but if you are pickling cases for loading as well as annealed "jackets" the chances of a mix-up increase quite a bit.

For anybody reading these threads, plese be careful with your annealed pistol cases - loading one of them will wreck a good handgun, and quite possibly wreck you!

B.

[BT Sniper]

B.

I'll defently heed you warning with the mix up of annealed and not. My solution is an easy one. I anneal 40S&W brass yet don't have a gun to shoot them in.

I'll try the dilution idea and let you know. How long is the pickel solution good for?

How about info on a good bound? Difference between using pure lead or some tin or wheel weight and difference in the strength of the bound? Again I must of fllunked chemistry because I have no idea what is actually "bonding" between the lead and the brass. If I mixed something with the melted lead would I get a better bond?

Brian

[docone31]

I am a jeweler. Pickleing is common to us.
There are several techniques we use.
First, boric acid and denatured alcohol. Soak the items in the alcohol, ignite. You now have a firescale coating on the item. Dropping them in pickle, the firescale coating is immediately removed. Usually with no evidence of the heating.
Second, just anneal. Then drop into pickle, aka sodium bisulphate, or Pool PH Reducer. Heating it speeds up the process. Do not introduce any ferrous materials into the solution. It makes a plateing solution. The copper that will be in the solution will plate to the item.
With jewelery items, that is very bad. With cases, no biggee.
From the pickle, immerse in water. Let dry, and tumble clean/shiney.
It is inexpensive, simple and effective.
Sparex pickle is expensive, Pool PH Reducer is inexpensive, and the same thing. It is found anywhere there are pool supplies. Muriatic acid accomplishes the same thing, but, I do not like haveing acids in the shop.
Sodium bisulphate will in time degrade the brass. The short time in the pickle however does not.
High temp fluxes like Batterns can be used in lieu of boric acid, but, boric acid, available at most pharmacies, is much less expensive and is the main ingredient of the fluxes outside of lead soldering fluxes.
When I anneal, I drop it into the pickle, rinse, polish.

[BT Sniper]

Thanks docone31,

That was what I was looking for. You may mentioned in an earlier post about the pool PH reducer. Now I'm a little confused again.... is the pickeling solution with the viniger a base. As in less than 7 on the PH scale? This would be the pool solution. As I understand it a PH reducer would have to be a fairly low number base on the scale correct?

Another ? I'm feeling somewhat dumb and sure someone will set me strait. I immerse the brass in the solution and in cleans great. Does it remove copper from the brass case and then plate it back on the case turning it copper color? This is what I have experienced just seems weird that it removes the copper then somehow it is plated back on?????

Either way I have been tumbling my seated cores and jackets in ceramic beeds and the viniger, water, salt solution. Clean bright and copper plated results. Not liking the copper look yet I tumble it in walnut overnight and very shiny brass is the result.

Still working on my pictures for displayed ressults.

Thanks this is so cool! Again what else can you amaze me with.

[docone31]

The copper that goes into solution, is the "loose" copper in the alloy. Heating the metal makes it migrate to the heat source. It becomes firescale. Firescale is oxides of metal caused by heating and the introduction of oxygen by heating. The pickle, or sodium bisulphate seperates the metals. Sulphates do that.
I do not know about vinegar and its effectiveness. I know, sodium bisulphate lasts over a year effectively without losing its relative strength.
Pickleing is simple. Make the solution. I use two cups per crock pot. Heat it up and all the powder dissolves. Done. Gone. In solution.
If you are useing a vibratory tumbler, with a center threaded rod, that is where you are introduceing iron into the solution. The copper is in the solution from removeing the firescale. You are not changeing the prime alloy.
If you change the center shaft to brass rod, you will not experience the copper plateing.
I also use ceramic beads in polishing. Mostly I use stainless steel shot with burnishing compound. It works better. The shot planishes rather than abrades.
You should, soak the brass in pickle, then rinse, then polish.
With ceramic beads, just cover the beads. A little Dawn soap works wonders in the polish. With my stainless steel shot, I have 2" over the shot.

[wonderwolf]

Great info, are we talking about 2 processes here one is cleaning up the brass and another one is for bonded cores? I'm trying to follow along....All I'm really interested in right now is just getting a shiny finished bullet. I'm not to the point I'm gonna bond just yet........but almost.


So salt, vinegar and water is what I should use to clean for a finished product?

What are the solution parts?

and I'm a little confused about the part the iron center rod would play in the tumbler (something with Iron oxide?)? and why if the center rod was brass it would not copper plate? I thought electrolysis had to be introduced. Crap now I feel like I failed chemistry.....

[bohica2xo]

Using a mild acid like vinegar is what you want for cleaning copper alloys. The mixture is not critical, but weak solutions take longer at room temperature.

A gallon of finished solution only needs a tablespoon or two of salt. You can use white vinegar from 20% to 50% of the solution - the balance is water. Distilled water is not necessary, tap water will work just fine.

The copper plating is caused by electrolysys, because the copper, zinc, acid salt & iron form a battery. Copper plating requires very little power.

I pickle in a plastic container. Ocasionally the solution picks up enough contamination from the range dirt to begin plating on the cases I am pickling. At that point the solutin is usually a dark blue with copper, and a tiny bit of iron is all it takes.

The zinc that is in the solution drops out. This is the dark scum in the bottom of the container (along with any dirt), and you can remove a lot of it by pouring off slowly after standing overnight.

Any steel that you introduce to used solution will copper plate almost instantly. Resist the urge to stir things with a screwdriver, or pick out cases with a steel tool.

B.

[BT Sniper]

It is fun to play with and I felt the same way about my chem knowledge. It was still tough for me to get pickled brass that did not have some degree of copper plating to it. It was neat though to let it plate the brass jacket till it turned a nice copper color.

B, Do you supose the spent primer in my brass jacket would cause the plating reaction? Maybe the anvil is iron of some sort? I don't know?

This was the case that when tumbled in the vibrating case cleaner it always plated the brass. The bolt I'm sure that holds the lid down must be the culpret. Would be worth a try to replace that bolt with a copper one. Don't recall how much was plated when I soaked them in plastic tub.

Still a little undecided what works best to get a brown annealed brass jacket shiny again. I usually tumble the jackets after I have seated the core untill they shine. Usually takes overnight at least. Then it is clean and bright for final swage, after which I just wipe them down to keep the lead tip pretty and not dulled or deformed from tumbling.

Wolf, keep us informed as to how it works out for you. I will continue to experiment as well. There has to be a easy and fast way to shine large amounts of brass after they have turned brown from the annealing process. I belive this pickeling should work yet I haven't mastered it yet.

BT Sniper