an interesting thought

[revolver junkie]

has anyone concidered trying to pp a solid brass or zinc bullet i would imagine this would allow jacketedeocitys without worring about the bullets wearing the rifling out
all though you might need a lathe to make em or you could oversize a lead mould and size the zinc down to clean it up?

[Japlmg]

I have paper patched 300 grain .458 soft points to be used in my Martini Henry rifles, and did get good results. Recovered bullets showed only light ingraving marks from the rifling, indicating the paper was the only thing touching the bore.
I have taken Elk and Mule Deer with those paper patched jacketed bullets.
Gregg

[pdawg_shooter]

My first paper patching was to make .308 diameter bullets work in a pre-war Mauser that had a .318 bore. Worked great after I figured out the tricks. This was back in the early 70s and is what got me started patching my cast.

[docone31]

Because I have successfully paper patched, I have been making my castings harder, and harder. I have some that has zinc in it. I am pleased with the results. They are something to size however. Once I get my .308 sizing, the rest is simple.
I can see where something like brass could be fired. One would have to be critical on final sizing though.

[JDFuchs]

I remember reading about solid brass bullets for dangerous game. Tho I think they might be a hard brass alloy and you'd be better off using standard copper jackets to have a long bore life. But if you get some custom ones made of soft brass you might do a bit better. I'm still new at this and haven't gotten the hang of cast in rifles yet but I'm loving the challenge so far, and I don't think ill ever buy jacketed handgun bullets.

http://www.nosler.com/?p=3&bullet=22

[Eagle]

I am new to all of this and was woundering. How hard is Zink on your bore anyways? I mean I have melted my first batch of WW and was sure to remove all Zink. But I still do not understand why one Zink WW will mess up a whole batch of lead. I am sorry for cutting in on this but it has been bothering me for a while.

[docone31]

I do not think, with paper patching, zinc really affects the bore at all. It does make the castings a little lighter, and definately harder.
I have been wondering on the addition of copper to the alloy. Mostly how to, and how much.
With paper patching, like I do, there are a lot of possibilities.
With conventional casting and shooting, zinc is not an addition. The type of casting done there, zinc detracts from performance. Lighter, harder, less expansion.

[Eagle]

Thanks docone31. I was thinking that is what it was about. I am going to have to check out this paper patchign to see if it will work for me. Is there any manuals that you recomend.

[docone31]

Eagle,
If you want to try paper patching, I suggest, you start a thread on this segment of the forum. Describe the caliber you have.
If you want to learn about paper patching, this forum has more techniques, and detail than I have actually read about before. I have read all the books.
Another point,
There are folks on this forum that really want you to succeed.
You in good company here.

[pdawg_shooter]

Thanks docone31. I was thinking that is what it was about. I am going to have to check out this paper patchign to see if it will work for me. Is there any manuals that you recomend.

The Paper Jacket by Paul Mathews is back in print and available from Wolf Publishing. This is the best I have ever read.

[windrider919]

If you search on Very Low Drag bullets (VLD) you will find a variety of custom manufacturers of copper and brass bullets. Most of these bullets are basically bore size with many small 'drive bands' of groove size to seal the propellant gas. That keeps the friction down and also prevents any bore obstruction overpressure from a unengravable solid.

Now to my personal experience. I had a machine shop make me a batch of 25ea aluminum bullets that were 1.75 long, and had a diameter of .450. They were shaped like the long range VLD bullets mentioned earlier, except no seal bands. I PPd them and shot them with a load derived from a pistol bullet that weighed close to the Al bullet. I shot at 500yds and was disappointed. They scattered all over. At a cost of over $3.00 each I did not repeat the experiment. The chrono that I used showed a velocity of 3640 avg but the std deviation was over 40 which is evidenced by the very large group.

One other note, we have a 1" thick 12" gong at 100 yards on the range and I did shoot the last round at it thinking the Al bullet would act like lead and just splash off. To my amazement it punched right through, leaving a hole that a .308 would just fit in and a ring of Al at the entrance. The hole was plated with Al and even 3 months later was not rusty because the layer of Al lining it. The hole looked as if the bullet core had punched through as the bullets outer layers mushroomed back multiple times, ie the ring was several layers thick rolled into a doughnut. Whod a thunk that? [NOTE: I had paid for the gong and hung it so anyone complaining about damaging range targets has no gripe. Besides, I also take the well shot up gongs down at least once a year and weld them up and re hang them at my own time and expense. NOT like the person who shot up the hanging turkeys and rams on the pistol range with jacketed rifle ammo!]

[docone31]

Wow, it sounds like you are onto something there.
Do you have any thoughts on why accuracy was missing at yardage?
I would wonder if the shape started to wobble opening the center. That is if it stayed in the direction fired. It would seem that way to penetrate steel at 100yds.
Were you able to recover any fired rounds?
Good for you!!
A bunch of us fix steel at our range. Usually some newbie brings a rifle, sprays the berm, leaves brass, cups, trash, downrange clutter, and goes home. We stay and clean up, mostly glad they left intact.
If someone at each range does not do it, the ranges go away.
Those must have been impressive looking rounds.

[windrider919]

Impressive, oh yes! I regret that my digital camera had failed and I had not gotten a new one yet. I tried to take pictures with an instamatic but got too blury pictures.

I had to remove the bolt to load the rounds. Due to the shape of the bullet the PP was fairly far back and I seated it to just touch the rifling. I could not recoverr any of the fired bullets as they pennetrated too deep into the backstop. I tried but they just went deeper than I could dig by hand and a can. I did not bring a shovel with me that day and the next week the holes had collasped and could not be followed. The holes in the cardboard target were slightly oblong, showing that the bullets had tipped in flight. I believe that they needed a faster twist to stabilize. I might note that I used BLC2 and it was a compressed load with only about .150 of the bore riding section in the case (along with the boat tail, of couse). Yet I got unburned powder grains left in the barrel and the primers were not fully flattened. With another , quicker powder I could have gotten an even higher velocity. But probably no better accuracy. Using the twist calculation tables the bullets were just too long for that twist. Additionally, I wondered if the bullets tipped slightly in the barrel due to the PP being paper and softer than metal. Now I am shooting metal bullets as cast to .453 /4 and PP. Perhaps if done again I would make the Al bullets .452 and PP to grip the bullet tighter.

[45 2.1]

You can shoot basically anything down the bore, as long as its the right size. When riflery was young, the British government commisioned Sir Charles Whitworth to do all manner of tests to determine what actually worked. That man shot those blackpowder muzzle loading rifles at short and long range and determined what worked. He even shot steel patched bullets, for use against ships at sea. About anything you can come up with has already been tried, many times.........................

[leftiye]

I suspect that the aluminum bullets were waaay too long for the twist rate??? Kinda like an arrow?

[Old Ironsights]

has anyone concidered trying to pp a solid brass or zinc bullet i would imagine this would allow jacketedeocitys without worring about the bullets wearing the rifling out
all though you might need a lathe to make em or you could oversize a lead mould and size the zinc down to clean it up?

Corolary question...

Doesn't Zinc cast an undersized boolit?

Wouldn't PP be a good way to use zinc since it doesn't fill out for crap anyway?