Marlin 1894 .44 mag Load

[shooterchris]

I am going to try to work up a load for a 300gr. gas check lead bullet that I am making. I want to use this as a hunting round. I'm thinking of about 20 gr of 2400, but am definitely open to suggestion. Thanks Guys!:castmine:
Chris

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Hullo,Shooter. I use 18.5 of 2400 in marlin with a 300 gr boolit.

My rifle shoots it well with this load. You are in the ball park with your suggested load , IMHO I would load a few at different increments and look for accuracy, always looking for excessive pressure signs, it may not be the fastest load , but most animals don't know the difference if they died 100fps +- sooner or later[smilie=1:

Good luck and good shooting

[shooterchris]

Thanks snow elk. I shoot a lot of .44 in my redhawk and have a pet load for a 200 gr that I pour for it. I also agree, when 300 gr hits an animal velocity doesnt come into play half as much as most "shooters" think. I have recently bought an old 1894 that looks like it was carried by a drunk cowboy and dropped daily, but the barrel is in brand new shape. I have refinished the buttstock and forend, polished an blued the rifle, worked on the action some, fitted it with a Limbsaver gel filled recoil pad, and today I'll be putting the scope ( Nikon Pro Staff 4x 32 ) on the rifle. I poured about 200 bullets last night and weighed them individually. The 150 or so that I kept weigher between 309.5 and 310.5. Is this being too picky? I am a benchrest shooter, although I dont expect that type of accuracy out of this rifle, so attention to details is in my nature. Let me know your thoughts on this.:coffee:

[JDL]

My 1894 shoots the Lee 310 grain an average of 2.58"( 7 groups) at 100 using 21 grains of H-110, with the largest being 3.68" but, it's bearly stable and shows slight tipping. Velocity is 1537 with that load.
JDL

[indiana]

My 1894 shoots the Lee 310 grain an average of 2.58"( 7 groups) at 100 using 21 grains of H-110, with the largest being 3.68" but, it's bearly stable and shows slight tipping. Velocity is 1537 with that load.
JDL
I'm curious whether the groups relative to target are the same at 50 yards or are the group higher of target at 50 yards?
I'm experimenting as well but with a 200 grain bullet using Unique and I can't go over 9 gn without spraying.

[exile]

I shoot 7.7 grains of Unique out of my Mountain Gun with a 200 grain bullet but in a .44 special case. It seems accurate and is very enjoyable.

exile

[Boomer Mikey]

A 265 grain bullet is the heaviest cast bullet that will reliabily stabilize in the Marlin 1894's slow 1:39 twist barrel without pushing pressure and velocity to maximum recommended limits.

Boomer

[JDL]

I'm curious whether the groups relative to target are the same at 50 yards or are the group higher of target at 50 yards?
I'm experimenting as well but with a 200 grain bullet using Unique and I can't go over 9 gn without spraying.

When sighted dead on at 50 yards, the groups at 100 was 5" below aim point with the above load.
JDL

[indiana]

Thanks for the reply JDL. I imagined using a stout charge to achieve a higher velocity would also provide a flat trajectory to at least 100 yards. This is what I am trying to achieve.
Perhaps I'm pursuing the unattainable. Is a flat trajectory a "pipe-dream" when using cast bullets?
If you don't mind me asking, what are you sizing the bullet to? I'm having a lot of fun with my 1894 1:38 twist but am looking for more accuracy at 100. The 200gn .429 is actually casting .430 to .431 from WW. I harden them and use LLA but my groups are not tight.
I just purchased a lee 265gn GC mold that will cast .430. It is believed to be the same as the ones sold by Ranch Dog.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Indiana

[cabezaverde]

My Win 94, which has the same 1-38 twist, shoots well with a .433 diameter bullet.

[chaos]

I have a RCBS mold 44-240-SWC. Throws a slug 242-243 in weight. Weighs something like 251-252 with the check attached. I only use straight wheel weights and I water drop them. The little rifle holds under an inch at 50 yards. which is not bench rest shooting by any standards, but is good enough for hunting.
I load them over FULL doses of Win 296. I have yet to recover any slug in any animal. I just dont see the need to go any heavier. I did recover one slug that was lying on the ground. It passed completely through a 200lb hogs head, the rump of another 200lb hog standing behind him and dented the hell out of a feeder leg. I size them at .430. same load in my Blackhawks. Same results.

I also have a mold that is a RCBS 44-250-KT Throws a 252-253gr non checked slug. This will feed pretty well out of the rifle, but hangs up every now an again because of the long OAL. My son shoots them with 10 gr Unique. Puts hogs DRT.

I dont hunt Elk, Moose or Bear , but I would be willing to bet it would penetrate through any of them.

just my 2 cents

[Char-Gar]

I have a discontinued RCBS 44 mold that produces very small groups ( one inch at 50 yards) in my Marlin 44 magnum. The bullets weigh 235 grains and are backed by 10/Unique. They are a gas check design.

Now if I used the 265 grain Thompsom bullet on top of the same powder charge, the groups open up to six inches at 50 yards.

Now if I use 21/2400 behind the same 265 Thompson, the groups shrink to 1 inch, again at 50 yards.

What is learned here is the 1-38 twist Marlin barrel won't stablilize the Thompson bullet at 1.2 K fps, but will at 1.6 K fps.

Bullet weight and stability has much to do with velocity. Bullet weight alone don't tell you much of anything.

Oh yes, the carrier on this Marlin leveguns can be modified to allow rounds with longers LOA to function well. I have done this modification on both my 44 and .357 Marlin leverguns and it cures many feeding issues.

[indiana]

I have a discontinued RCBS 44 mold that produces very small groups ( one inch at 50 yards) in my Marlin 44 magnum. The bullets weigh 235 grains and are backed by 10/Unique. They are a gas check design.

Now if I used the 265 grain Thompsom bullet on top of the same powder charge, the groups open up to six inches at 50 yards.

Now if I use 21/2400 behind the same 265 Thompson, the groups shrink to 1 inch, again at 50 yards.

What is learned here is the 1-38 twist Marlin barrel won't stablilize the Thompson bullet at 1.2 K fps, but will at 1.6 K fps.

Bullet weight and stability has much to do with velocity. Bullet weight alone don't tell you much of anything.

Oh yes, the carrier on this Marlin leveguns can be modified to allow rounds with longers LOA to function well. I have done this modification on both my 44 and .357 Marlin leverguns and it cures many feeding issues.

That is an interesting discovery regarding bullet stabilization at higher velocities. Do you thing that it would work for a 200 gn bullet? Or do you think I've maximized it's load at 9gn of Unique?

Thanks to all others for sharing information. Are 2 - 3" consistent and repeatable groupings at 100 yards too ambitious of a task with a 1894 marlin? I don't know if it's just me but 100 is a fixation on my part that I got to get out of my system. That's why I'm hoping the Lee 265gn GC will fit the bill. I love the feel of this little gun and I want it to achieve it's potential with cast and leave it there....well for now.
I'm looking for molds that they believe will do the trick and are willing to with as well as a lubrisizer and dies.

Indiana

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Indiana, the Lee .430 will drop a smaller boolit than the RD, Ranch Dogs are made to .432 spec, the ones Lee is selling were rejected by RD. Lee makes his molds on a special order basis.
Those are the only 265gr molds I am aware of from Lee, and I also bought one of them for cheap with intentions to lap it out to match my RD mold.

Good luck

[indiana]

Indiana, the Lee .430 will drop a smaller boolit than the RD, Ranch Dogs are made to .432 spec, the ones Lee is selling were rejected by RD. Lee makes his molds on a special order basis.
Those are the only 265gr molds I am aware of from Lee, and I also bought one of them for cheap with intentions to lap it out to match my RD mold.

Good luck

Slow Elk, I read the same thing about RD rejecting these molds. I slugged my 1894 barrel yesterday and got a reading of .429 - .430 (I think). Interestingly, I used a round nose, flat top, bullet cast out of a .429 lee mold to slug the barrel with.
They were in the ball park price-wise and opted to purchase one. Who knows, maybe they'll cast bigger.
Have you cast any from yours to determine if they are indeed smaller than RD's specs?
Thanks
Indiana

[longbow]

I worked up a load of 21 grs. H110 under a 300 gr. paper patched boolit. Skookum load but no pressure signs.

I got good accuracy to 50 yards, mediocre at 75 and sideways at 100 yards.

My gun is microgroove with 1:38 twist and 0.431" groove. So far I have been unsuccessful getting accuracy beyond 100 yards with any boolit I have tried that weighs more than 270 gr. including "J" bullets. If I keep the weight at 265 to 270 gr. I can get good accuracy to 200 yards but not with heavier boolits. Boolits are normally sized 0.432"/0.433". I get serious leading with undersize boolits.

It may well be boolit design because Ranch Dog has done well to 300 yards (if memory serves) with his 300 gr. and several other folks get good accuracy to 100 yards and beyond with 300 gr. WFN styles seem to do best.

Longbow

[leadeye]

I hunt with an old 1894 with the micro groove barrel, use a RD265 sized to .432 through his die on top of 21 grains of Lil gun. This gives me 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards which is about as far as I can shoot in the Hoosier woods.:-D

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Indiana, I have not received the mold from Lee yet, I am fairly sure that RD would not send them back if they were not. I will measure when I get it.

As for slugging your BBl, if you used a lead boolit of .429 diameter, are you sure the BBL is
.429? seems like you need to start out with a slug that is oversize IMHO, at least that has been my approach and seems to be accepted by most folks. Try a larger slug and drill a hole through it say 1/8" drill bit , then tap that through, I think you may get a different reading, use a lead slug, you want your cast boolit to be about .002 over bore- .429. bore/.431slug,
.430 bore/.432 slug and so on. Mine are .431bore/.434 boolit, it works fine.

Shooter Chris was working with a Marlin 1894 44mag, they are usually around .430-.432, if you are slugging yours .429 it may well be. I have 2 of them and they are both .432 micro grove. THE POINT BEING to get good accuracy, you usually go .002 over diam. to keep the boolit from stripping out and leading the BBL, causing poor accuracy...Thus the need for .432 in a rifle BBL .429 in won't hurt anything and I think you will like the way they shoot.

Let us know what you find. Good luck

[indiana]

Slow Elk, I received the mold from Lee today and could not wait to see what size boolits it would cast. I measured 5 from each cavity and they are between .4320 to .4325. Needles to say I am more than just a little pleased, particularly after all the rave reviews about this boolit.
Interestingly, although the clearance center sold the mold as a 430-265 (the invoice says the same thing), the mold is stamped 432-265 which, perhaps, confirms these were the ones that RD rejected. It seems however that I got one that drops WW bullits that reflect the mold spec.
Will I need to size these now or can they be fired as they are? Also, although these are GC bullits, can they be fired without a GC? If so, would I use less of a charge?
Thanks
Indiana

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Hullo Indiana, I'm glad that mold is dropping a boolit you can use, Yes these are the only 265gr.molds that Lee has produced--the RD 265.

As for sizing , you said your bore is about .430, that being the case, you don't have to resize them IMHO. They should shoot better left as cast.

How hard are you going to drive the boolits? You can shoot them without the GC with no problem. If you are going to drive them fast, they would probably be a little more accurate with a GC. But they should be ok with out.

I don't use GC's on mine at 44 mag pistol speed, mine are around 1,100fps.
I use the GC's when shooting in my marlin, but that is just me. Most folks here and on other sites don't think the GC is necessary until you get around 1700fps and higher , I think mine are around 1500-1600fps, works for me.

You don't have to reduce the charge when using without the GC, unless you are going to 1700fps or higher, then you might have a problem, who knows go shoot some loaded the way you want and see what you get, Most have found this boolit to be very accurate--Good luck , let us know what you get.[smilie=1:

[twotrees]

I had a Marlin 1894 MG in 44 mag. I loaded the RCBS 240 gr (Lyman #2 alloy)over 21 gr's of OLD 2400. With a 3X9 scope off a solid bench it would shoot 2 inch groups, at 100 yards.

It shot so well (boolit had to be crimped on the first driving band as crimp groove crimp was too long to feed, wish I had known how to lengthen the carrier then). That the owner of the range traded me out of it. (BIG Mistake on my part).

That rifle was used by 2 women at our deer camp to kill their first ever deer, and I loved to carry it. Just one of those Stupid days I wish i could take back.

Good Luck with yours,

[Crass Whackwords]

Oh yes, the carrier on this Marlin leveguns can be modified to allow rounds with longers LOA to function well. I have done this modification on both my 44 and .357 Marlin leverguns and it cures many feeding issues.

Charger, exactly what COL are you able to cycle with blunt bullets in your Marlin 357 ?

I ask because I modded my carrier as per the instructions at Beartooth and it gained very little. My max COL is about 1.6" with blunt bullets so it may have bought me 0.01". Smaller meplats could probably go a little longer but I only shoot blunt bullets.

It's been a few years since I played with the mod but I vaguely remember that there were timing issues -- the carrier mod allows a longer cartridge to be held on the carrier, but in order to shuck the longer cartridge into the chamber, you would have to alter the timing so that the carrier lifts a little earlier.

[Hunter 24095]

What is the max OAL that a 1894 44m will cycle with out the mod? The reason I ask is I just bought one and want to load some 255 and 300 grain lead boolits for it and have no idea where to start with my loads. I am new to the lead boolit loading deal but want to learn all I can.

[Irascible]

Before you load a bunch, make a couple of dummies to try. My 1894 Cowboy will not feed the 310 gr SSK or the RCBS 250K bullet. Both are too long in the nose. Gates, from Dixie Slugs, sent me a few of his wide meplat 265gr which have a short nose and feed slicker then snail snot! The .275" nose length seems to be the ideal. I had mountain moulds make me a mould with the Gates nose but the body shortened for a 200gr PB Cowboy action shooting bullet. BOY IS IT SLICK!
This is his Marlin bullet. It is not the wide meplat bullet shown in the "stickies" posting at the top of the cast bullet section.

[indiana]

Hullo Indiana, I'm glad that mold is dropping a boolit you can use, Yes these are the only 265gr.molds that Lee has produced--the RD 265.

As for sizing , you said your bore is about .430, that being the case, you don't have to resize them IMHO. They should shoot better left as cast.

How hard are you going to drive the boolits? You can shoot them without the GC with no problem. If you are going to drive them fast, they would probably be a little more accurate with a GC. But they should be ok with out.

I don't use GC's on mine at 44 mag pistol speed, mine are around 1,100fps.
I use the GC's when shooting in my marlin, but that is just me. Most folks here and on other sites don't think the GC is necessary until you get around 1700fps and higher , I think mine are around 1500-1600fps, works for me.

You don't have to reduce the charge when using without the GC, unless you are going to 1700fps or higher, then you might have a problem, who knows go shoot some loaded the way you want and see what you get, Most have found this boolit to be very accurate--Good luck , let us know what you get.[smilie=1:

Slow El'k, all I can say is "Incredible!". I cast a few and water quenched. Your recommendations on not sizing did the trick! I didn't think you could achieve that level of accuracy with this bullet. Once I discovered the correct charge level (by the way it took me all weekend and a somewhat bruised shoulder), I am now getting close to consistently shooting clover-leafs at 60 yards.
Early on my analysis validated that my "fliers" were caused by excessive CRIMPING pressure. Once my crimps became consistent (bordering on no crimp) the bullets responded like I never expected with only 7.5 gn of charge.....go figure.
I also found that if I factory crimped with the RD boolits, the marlin would not cycle and my accuracy was not repeatable.
Thanks again.

[Crass Whackwords]

What is the max OAL that a 1894 44m will cycle with out the mod? T

The manual that comes with the Marlin should tell you, I think it is 1.59" max COL but I am going from memory and it's been a long time since I've looked at the manual. In addition, it will vary with the type of bullet, blunt bullets may require a shorter COL.

Generally, a COL that is too short is not a problem, but there is definitely a limit on the max COL.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Hey indiana, glad to see it's working for you, makes it fun when you get the results you are looking for:drinks:

:redneck: :cbpour: :Fire:

[shooterchris]

Snow Elk,

Good advise. I slugged the barrell of my microgroove 1894 twice. .428. I didnt believe it either so myself and a friend with much experience did it again.....same result. Ordered mould and sizer, and have almost given up on the 300gr idea ( talk about that in a minute). ordered a lyman 255 SWC GC mould. it casts right at 433. dia. Ordered a lyman .430 sizer and went to work with a 6:1 lino to lead alloy. Gas check and lube boolit is right at 260gr. put 19.5gr of 2400 under it w/ a CCI350 primer. First shot at a hunting load for this thing.....was even ready to write suggestions for improvement in my book. when I sighted the rifle in @ 30 yards 3 3round cloverleaf type groups. moved to 100, and I know it sounds like a stretch for the rifle and calliber, but I shot 2 groups right at 2" and 1 at 1.78". I dont really believe it either, but it did happen. I wanted to shoot more, but I'm gonna save some for a South Carolina whitetail! Ok back to the 300 gr beast. Lyman suggests a starting load of 14.4 gr of 2400. Most others have said that they are using 19gr, but admittedly getting sub standard results. Im thinking of sizing the same way and maybe trying like 16gr of 2400. Any experience in the 300 gr area? And will the thing even think about stabilizing with any charge with the slow twist of my rifle? Again appreciate the advice I couldn't be happier with my 1894 right now.:castmine:

Chris

[Slow Elk 45/70]

ShooterChris, The 300gr is a strange animal in some rifles with the slower twist. Some people say they have really good luck with it, others cuss it. The best I have done with it a microgroove was with 18gr of 2400. so so accuracy.[smilie=b:

I have a lot better groups with the 265 and a 270 that I have. I can't say you will do better with the 300 gr. boolit, I would start around 16.5 and work up , I think 19gr is pushing it a bit for this boolit.

IMHO, you will be better served with the 260-270 for the 44mag. Now if you want a 444----the 300-320gr boolits kick butt , you have the mold, you just need a new rifle. HA HA, you do know how much money you can save casting your own, don't you????:kidding:

[shooterchris]

Well Snow Elk them money trees grow great in my South Carolina clay..... I'll go pick some and order me a 444! I think that my next venture into 1894 land will be an octagon BBL 30-30. Believe it or not I have never owned a 30-30 and hear that the non- micro groove versions of the 1894 love lead....opinion? As far as the 44, I found a good load on the first try and that dont happen much I'm just gonna let that 300gr sleepin dog lie. I dont think that the deer will complain about a light lick with what I have in that 255gr! Anyway thanks again for the help and if you have any advise or knohow before I go buying the 30-30 let me know whats on your mind. I dont know how it happened, and I am first and foremost a benchrest shooter, but these lever guns and single action revolvers are sneaking into my safe when I'm not looking.....Then to top that I really am enjoying the old school guns.

Chris:Fire:

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Hullo ShooterChris, Yea it does get under a fellows skin, it seems to grow on a lot of people when they try it.[smilie=1:

Find a marlin 30/30 with the Ballard BBl and you will be a happy man. These are good shooters and I knock over a couple of white tails everytime I visit my son & brother with one of mine that I keep at their place just for that, very nice and easy to carry in the woods, and yes it Loves lead, if you buy a used one be sure to strip ALL of the copper fouling from the BBL or it won't shoot the CB the way it can.

I think you will be better served spending your time having fun with the 44/255 load you found than fighting the odds trying to make your 300gr shoot in that particular rifle.

Have fun and I hope you find that 30/30 you want, you never know what you might find while looking, I bet something will follow you home.[smilie=1:
:drinks:

[Pirate69]

I have one of the Lee 265 grain molds on order. I will be using it in a Marlin 1894 without GCs in the beginning. I am looking for some advice on a powder load that will give me about 800 fps out of the Marlin. Powders available are: RedDot, Unique, Bullseye. If you have loads for other powders, I can use those also. Thanks in advance.

[NHlever]

I cast some 265 gr Lee RNFP boolits today out of one of those "bargin" molds. It did cast over .430, but not .432. I've got to tinker on the mold a bit, so I only cast a few. On the bright side, I also cast some Lyman 429215's today out of another new mold, and they did barely cast .432 which I need for my SBH. I haven't tried the 310 grainers in my Winchester which I believe is a 1-26" twist, but I really don't see the point in pursuing them at 100 yards anyway. Those boolits are very good for up close, and personal bone crunching penetration, but I really don't see a longer range use for them. I stick with good 240-250 grain slugs for most shooting, and I believe that a 215 will actually give you all the penetration you normally would need, and they sure shoot much flatter!

[Pirate69]

NHlever,
How do you plan to load the 265s? Will you be using a GC?

[Pirate69]

Oh well, got a note in the mail from Lee today. The 265 grain mold is no longer available. Need to see if someone whats to get rid of theirs.

[longbow]

I just got mine a couple of days ago and cast this morning.

I decided to play devils advocate since I usually oil moulds (at least iron moulds) and seldom do much clean up before casting with no problems of wrinkled boolits.

I did not even clean the mould, put it on a piece of steel over my two burner propane stove to pre-heat it while my pot of lead melted then started casting when water sizzled on the mould.

The first two boolits out of a brand new mould are usable! I cast 60 rounds with only 5 rejects. I do cast hot though!

Anyway, after miking I find one cavity casts 0.430" to 0.432" and one casts 0.4315" to 0.4325". There is a very small offset of about 0.001" to the mould blocks and a slight burr on the edges of the cavity. All in all not bad and you can't beat the price.

Since my groove diameter is almost 0.432" I was planning on lapping to about 0.433"+ anyway. I just finished lightly lapping and will cast again later to see if I took enough out. I can feel that the offset is gone now as I turn the lapping boolit.

Nice looking boolit! I will load some later and hopefully shoot tomorrow. I will be loading barefoot over IMR4227.

I wish I had bought a 6 cavity from Ranchdog when he was in business!

Longbow