eds red

[weasel 21]

Looking to make my own eds red. Where would I find kerosene?

[waksupi]

Your local hardware store will have it.

[RayinNH]

In small towns or rural areas, hardware store, general store or even the gas station may have a pump on the side for it...Ray

[Shiloh]

I make mine with kerosene from the gas station. Two places in town sell it at the pump. This is probably not available in bulk in many locales, but here in the upper midwest it is. The stuff at the hardware store is odorless which is good, but comes in 2 1/2 gal. containers. There isn't an overwhelming kerosene smell from the gas station variety. Now, if I could find some iso amyl acetate (Banana Oil), my Ed's Red would smell more like Hoppes #9. I like Eds Red. it cleans as well as commercially manufactured products,
and it fills my Do-It-Yourself need.

Shiloh

[R.C. Hatter]

Wal-Mart sells the stuff in 2 up to 5 gal. containers for heaters.

[44 WCF]

I buy my stuff for Ed's Red from the local home improvement center. It's all there in the paint department. They have it all in 160z or 1 quart metal cans, even the ATF, but I buy ATF from Auto parts, it's next door and cheaper too.. I mix it all and then pour it back in the metal cans and label it. Will look for some banana oil, sounds interesting.

[waksupi]

I personally like the smell of Ed's Red!

[Reddot]

Many home improvement places that sell kerosene heater in the winter time will sell the kerosene as well. It is a seasonal item so you might want to stock up now.

[Sprue]

Kinda partial to it myself. I like to homebrew stuff. I've started replenishing my components recently for another batch. Kerosene is on every other corner around here.

[kawalekm]

Lamp oil is highly refined kerosene. That's what I use to make Ed's Red. They sell that at all the marts in the lamp/lighting section of the store. Been making that way for about 10 years now. By the way, if you use the variation containing acetone, make sure you use a new, unopened bottle. Acetone is very hydroscopic and will pull water out of the air. If you mix your Ed's and you get a milky pink emulsion, it is because of contaminating water.
Michael

[Bret4207]

I make mine with kerosene from the gas station. Two places in town sell it at the pump. This is probably not available in bulk in many locales, but here in the upper midwest it is. The stuff at the hardware store is odorless which is good, but comes in 2 1/2 gal. containers. There isn't an overwhelming kerosene smell from the gas station variety. Now, if I could find some iso amyl acetate (Banana Oil), my Ed's Red would smell more like Hoppes #9. I like Eds Red. it cleans as well as commercially manufactured products,
and it fills my Do-It-Yourself need.

Shiloh

http://shop2.chemassociates.com/shopsite/Chemassoc2/PAS-amylacetate.html There's your banana oil! I might just go for it.

[Gee_Wizz01]

I buy the Kerosene at a gas station, its a lot cheaper than getting it at HD or Wally World. When I lived in VA, nearly all the gas stations had a kerosene pump by the side of the station. Here in FL you have to look, but I have found several stations.
I would like to use the "banana oil" to, but not at $26.00 for 500 ml!

G

[mikekj]

I would like to use the "banana oil" to, but not at $26.00 for 500 ml!

G

$26. + $40 UPS hazmat fee.:(

[Echo]

I had to jump through a couple of hoops to make up my ER. My Ace had lamp kerosene in a half/gallon bottle, so bought that. Bought a quart of ATF since it was there. Bought a quart of acetone, too. Hmmmm...

Bought a gallon of mineral spirits. Had a near-empty gallon at home. Poured that into an empty quart can, then emptied my quart of acetone and quart of ATF into the now-empty mineral spirits jug. Poured up a quart of kerosene into a now-empty ATF can, then poured it into the receptacle. Finished filling the quart can of mineral spirits and emptied into the gallon can, while standing on one foot, facing north. Carrumba...

[Dan Cash]

If kero is too hard to find, #1 diesel is reasonable replacement. Failing #1, then #2 will also work but avoid the winterized diesel and bio diesel, they STINK.
Dan

[Shiloh]

I had to jump through a couple of hoops to make up my ER. My Ace had lamp kerosene in a half/gallon bottle, so bought that. Bought a quart of ATF since it was there. Bought a quart of acetone, too. Hmmmm...

Bought a gallon of mineral spirits. Had a near-empty gallon at home. Poured that into an empty quart can, then emptied my quart of acetone and quart of ATF into the now-empty mineral spirits jug. Poured up a quart of kerosene into a now-empty ATF can, then poured it into the receptacle. Finished filling the quart can of mineral spirits and emptied into the gallon can, while standing on one foot, facing north. Carrumba...

You've added Ritual. Nice Touch LOL :lol:

Mine's in a Coleman Fuel can.

Shiloh

[RayinNH]

When you get it mixed, pour some into a soy sauce bottle. The bottle with the long neck allows you to pick it up one handed, with patch over the mouth and index finger over the patch...Ray

[mroliver77]

I just cannot grasp not having a kerosene pump at the gas station. I guess it is odd to me that most of you cannot shoot our your back (or front) door.
Ingredients are easy to get here. I had a can of turpentine and used it in my ER. Nice smell to me, ex did not appreciate it at all. I use Alox in my batch for storage purposes.
J

[Gerry N.]

If you have difficulty finding kerosene, either regular or deodorized paint thinner will work every bit as well.

Gerry N.

[Dale53]

I am probably wasting my breath here, but here goes, anyway:neutral::

I have been an enthusiastic user of Ed's Red since I first saw the formula (direct from Ed Harris). I was extremely careful to follow Ed's directions EXACTLY. Ed's Red has a permanent place in my shop. I have used it for several years with total satisfaction. I told my friends and associates and furnished them with Ed's directions.

One of them built up a fine single shot rifle (a rehabilitation job). It was in the white and he had laboriously hand polished it with all flats "flat" and all rounds "round". In short, he had done a fine job and it was ready for bluing and case hardening. He had finished polishing the rifle and covered it in "Ed's Red" overnight. When he awoke in the morning, the rifle was covered in rust from one end to the other. I did a careful investigation to determine what caused this. Well, my good friend refused to pay the money for "Certified K-1 Kerosene" in the can and bought his kerosene from a gas pump.

Kerosene from a pump may be nearly anything. It often has acids in it (you don't need pure for a heater or a lamp) and is subject to the operator's whims as to when he pumps the water out of the tanks (oh yes, even gasoline tanks have to regularly have the water pumped out). This is hardly the stuff to put on a fine gun.

What my friend had trouble with was only "called" Ed's Red. If you deviate from the formula, it ISN'T Ed's Red. If you use pump kerosene, it ISN'T Ed's Red. If you put banana oil in it, it ISN'T Ed;s Red. Ed Harris had an organic Chemist looking over his shoulder when he "designed" Ed's Red and there are no "unintended consequences" to be found. Change the "formula" in any way and you have absolutely NO idea what will happen unless, you too, are an organic chemist...

Rant over.

Dale53

[waksupi]

I'm with Dale. Always use the recommended ingredients in Ed's Red.
We used it pretty much exclusively at Serengeti Rifles, and never had a sign of rust appear.

[Shiloh]

I have seen several recipes from time to time about variations of/to Ed's Red on numerous gun-boards. The topic comes up a lot.

Some call for the substitution of MEK for the acetone, turpentine for the mineral spirits, Kroil for the kerosene. All are called Ed's Red. To call it "Sorta like Ed's Red" "Ed's Red Variant", or "Only called Ed's Red" are silly semantic games. Ed himself adapted his formula from "Frankford Arsenal Cleaner No.18" So why doesn't he call his "Sorta Like "Frankford Arsenal Cleaner No.18" ?? Below is the purported original formula and the site I got it from.

CONTENTS: Ed's Red Bore Cleaner http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/tech/eds_red.htm

* 1 part Dexron ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later.
* 1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1
* 1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits
* CAS #64741-49-9, or substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS #8052-41-3, or equivalent.
* 1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1.
*(Optional 1 lb. of Lanolin, Anhydrous, USP per gallon, or OK to substitute Lanolin, Modified, Topical Lubricant, from the drug store)

In this recipe Ed uses the phrase "or equivalent" for Stoddard Solvent or Varsol. Same with the lanolin. He used what was available. The varieties both with and without lanolin are called Ed's Red, no distinction." When I made up the first batch, I asked for this stuff and the guy said he didn't have it. So I used mineral spirits.

I poured some of my pump grade kerosene into a glass mayonnaise jar when I first read the post, and it is still crystal clear. This kerosene is most likely used in heaters, and heaters really do work best with the better grade kerosene. At the bottom of the jar, so far anyway, there is no bubble of water. I also just checked the shop gun that was wiped down with my "Witches Brew" Ed's Red last fall. Been through a couple of thaws and refreezes and still no sign of rust. I would think that it certainly would have manifested itself by now, being close to the elements and all.

In the several years that I have been using it. I have had no trouble with it and no complaints about using it. Good Stuff!!

I sure don't want trouble with anyone or to stir the sh--, but
Other than giving the credit to Ed Harris about his concoction, altered from another mix mind you, what difference does it make to what someone does or does not put in their Ed's Red??

[Dale53]

I have always had the idea that my place on any forum was to genuinely offer help to other people. Now, it is always possible that my "help" is not wanted - fine, that is the responders "right".

However, what we do and say affects others. If we recommend things that "sound ok" but are NOT ok, bad things happen (remember when all of the benchrest guys were using two different great products TOGETHER (that were never intended to be used together) and ruined a bunch of EXPENSIVE "stainless" match barrels? This happened when a number of well intended but NOT terribly well informed people passed on these GREAT ideas that destroyed a number of bench rest gun barrels.

So, in general, I think it is a not necessarily a good idea for us to pass along "just as good as" information. I made up my batch of Ed's Red a long time ago (one gallon lasts me a long time). However, it cost me $8.00 (didn't need the lanolin) for the gallon using proper ingredients, so changing anything (since I am NOT an organic chemist and didn't even play one on TV) to save a couple of dollars can be a foolish move if it results in damage to a fine firearm. Since MY friend got in that pickle it behooves me to pass this along.

Ed Harris did use information from Frankfort Arsenal, but HE DID have an organic chemist looking over his shoulder to avoid "unintended consequences". Ed is a licensed engineer, worked long in the firearms industry and was on staff of the NRA when that stood for something. I don't know him personally, but frankly, I trust him to not lead me astray.

We are involved in a sport that simple errors can cause very expensive damage to fine firearms or to ourselves. Reloading and casting can be very safe or very hazardous. Proper description and NAMES of products can be very instructive or very dangerous. THAT is why I make such an emphasis on proper terminology. I am NOT the "English Police" but I would hate to be the cause of problems for someone else. I respectfully suggest that maybe all of us might want to feel the same way.

Dale53

[felix]

I have a brother who is a petro trader in Houston. That means he is a broker in the common sense. He told me of a deal that he was involved in which contained many pounds of toluene going from point A to point B using the pipeline system. The toluene was erroneously specified by the buyer. The buyer wanted "fuel" grade in retrospect and took delivery of a different grade. After finding the fault of the deal, my brother re-sold the stuff from the buyer to another buyer who had a standing order for such a grade (making furniture strippers, and equivalent). So, keep that in mind, especially in the chemical business. ...

[Sprue]

Kinda partial to it myself. I like to homebrew stuff. I've started replenishing my components recently for another batch. Kerosene is on every other corner around here.

For clarification, let it be known as to when I referenced Kerosene above I indeed meant K1 of course.

Speaking for myself I'm adamant about following said recipes.

Thanks Dale - for the enlightenment

[Humpy]

FWIW I have been using ER for last six/seven years I guess since Ed told me about it in a email.

I normally used K1 Kerosene which was fine.

Recently (last year or so) I had some Off Road Diesel (dyed red) and I added the mercon/dexron and mineral spirits and and so far have not seen any difference in performance or smell.

As I understand it the cost of diesel went up significantly because of gov't requirements for filtering and less bad contents I can't remember the name of right now.

I now have a backhoe and get lots of Off Road Diesel for it and use the ER mix to spray pins that do not have grease fittings. Everything still works just like the Er I made with kerosene.

I don't use the acetone as I get too much of it on my hands and use it indoors and don't want to touch or smell it. I have acetone on hand and use it to think epoxy glue and fiberglass but that is only time I use it and outdoors at that.

[longbow]

I for one appreciate Dale's warning.

I will be the first to admit that I often make do with what is available or what I think might work. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. As long as I accept and plan for the "sometimes it doesn't" things usually work out.

I plan on making up my first batch of Ed's Red and will make sure I avoid pump grade kerosene. I might have been inclined to "make do" and would not have expected to find water in the kerosene as Dale's friend did.

Longbow

[Irascible]

"Kerosene from a pump may be nearly anything. It often has acids in it (you don't need pure for a heater or a lamp) and is subject to the operator's whims as to when he pumps the water out of the tanks (oh yes, even gasoline tanks have to regularly have the water pumped out). This is hardly the stuff to put on a fine gun".
YUP, K1 Kerosene ONLY!!
I buy mine in gallon containers from Home Depot. Expensive, but cheaper than Hoppes or any other bore cleaner. And how much do you use anyway? My gallon has lasted a few years, and I shoot and clean A LOT.

[Ken O]

I have made this stuff for years also. I subsituted mineral spriits for Stoddard Solvent.
According to Dale I screwed up, but it has worked for me.

When I make this up I only make up a about about 16 oz, 4 oz of each. Keep it small because the acetone and spirits evaporate. I put it in the small Kroil can, the nozzle comes in handy for wetting a cleaning patch.

I remember when Ed first came out with this and posted it on the "Fidol" Fireams net, this was before Al Gore invented the internet.

[ddeaton]

I am going to gather supplies to make a batch tomorrow. I just lubed my first batch of boolits with homemade lube I made. Whats next, seems to be no end to this. I wish we could make our own primers and powder.

[Dale53]

KenO;
If you read Ed's original article, Aliphatic (sp?) Mineral Spirits IS Stoddard's Solvent. My can was labeled "Oderless Mineral Spirits" but in the fine print stated it is the SAME as Stoddards Solvent. So-o-o, according to Dale53 (me :mrgreen:), if you used Mineral Spirits, you did EXACTLY the RIGHT thing!

Dale53

[Crash_Corrigan]

I don't fancy paying out big bucks for bananna oil. However I do have about 4 oz of Hoppe's No 9 which I plan to dump into the gallon jog of Ed's Red in the shed.

I DO LOVE THAT SMELL!

I guess that should flavor up that concoction pretty good.......

[Shiloh]

I don't fancy paying out big bucks for bananna oil. However I do have about 4 oz of Hoppe's No 9 which I plan to dump into the gallon jog of Ed's Red in the shed.

I DO LOVE THAT SMELL!

I guess that should flavor up that concoction pretty good.......

Me Too !!

I may take your approach!!

There are those will will harrumph this choice as deviating from the original formula, therefore relegating it and those who aberrate as sacrilegious heretics. To be banished to the leper colony. Sheesh!!

Shiloh

[Shuz]

OK...A little help needed here. I have been making what I thought was Ed's Red for years. However, I use Coleman lantern fuel for the kerosene in the recipe. Isn't that the same as kerosene?

[jonk]

No, coleman fuel is...well one of two things. In its original form it is closer to gasoline. Back in the day they called it 'white gas'- i.e. lead free gasoline, also free of detergent, etc. Won't clog the generators like leaded apparently did. Now it is a Naptha derivative.

[Catshooter]

I don't think that Dale is saying you're a bad monkey if you don't follow the receipe exactly. He's saying, be careful and if you don't know what you're doing, be even more careful.

I agree with you Dale. People often speak (or post) very carelessly. Sometimes it makes no difference, sometimes it does.


Cat

[Shiloh]

No, coleman fuel is...well one of two things. In its original form it is closer to gasoline. Back in the day they called it 'white gas'- i.e. lead free gasoline, also free of detergent, etc. Won't clog the generators like leaded apparently did. Now it is a Naptha derivative.

The metal Coleman can works great to keep it in!!

Shiloh

[BillDan]

Jet A is kerosene. In fact, it's the most refined form of kerosene plus it has a corrosion inhibitor added. All I have to do is check the sump on one aircraft, and if there's no water, I have enough to make a year's worth of Ed's Red.

[JIMinPHX]

When I changed the ATF in my truck, I saved the old stuff for uses like this.

[whisler]

I am a chemist and used to work for the solvent division of Ashland Chemical (many long years ago). Technically Mineral Spirits is Stoddard Solvent (or vice versa) and Odorless Mineral Spirits is Deodorized Mineral Spirits or Mineral Spirits from which the Aromatic Hydrocarbons have been removed. The aromatic hydrocarbons are what give Mineral Spirits some of its odor and since they have a higher solvency power, Mineral Spirits would give the cleaner somewhat better cleaning power than Odorless MS. But it is the Acetone (or MEK, same chemical family but slightly slower evaporating) that gives Ed's Red the kick, in my opinion. Hope this adds something more than just more confusion

[13Echo]

Why did Ed replace the turpentine in Frankford Arsenal's #18 with Mineral Spirits? Out of curiosity I've made some up with turpentine and it seems to work as well as Ed's Red.

Jerry Liles

[Texasflyboy]

Why did Ed replace the turpentine in Frankford Arsenal's #18 with Mineral Spirits? Out of curiosity I've made some up with turpentine and it seems to work as well as Ed's Red.

Jerry Liles

Good question. I'd like to know too. I'll ask him tonight. We shoot tonight after work.

I'll post what I can remember.

:-D

[BD]

The smell would be my first quess. Turpentines ability to spontaneously combust rags when mixed with oil would be my second guess.

BD

[Dale53]

I can't speak for Ed. However, my experience with "Stoddards Solvent" is that you can throw a lit match in a bucket of Stoddards solvent (Mineral spirits) and it will put out the match. It requires a wick to burn. You do NOT want to try that with Turpentine[smilie=b: THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT YOU WANT TO TRY THIS!!

I just tried to find "Turpentine" at Lowe's, Home Depot, and Ace Hardware. NO LISTING. I was curious as the to cost. Mineral Spirits is readily available and quite reasonable in cost.

Dale53

[Shiloh]

Real turpentine is more expensive than mineral spirits. there is the the real turpentine I believe made from pine trees, and some artificial stuff called turpatine.

Turpentine, although it smells kind of nice, is very flamable. I use it to thin a beeswax, organic boiled linseed oil (The real stuff, not the hardware store variety) paste to rub into military gunstocks.

Bigger home supply stores may have it. I see the artificial variety a lot.
Sherwin Williams, Dutch Boy, or other private brand better paint stores would have it.

Shiloh

[13Echo]

Actually I'm more impressed by the dangers of acetone than I am of turpentine which is not to say I'm not careful with the terps. I rather like the smell of the mixture with terpentine. It kinda grows on you like Hoppe's #9.

I decided to try the terpentine mixture because it was closer to what the arsenal used and because terpentine seems to loosen leading in my black powder rifle better than anything I've tried besides Kroil. That of course is not to say it's better than the original Ed's Red. I also note in my copy of Hatcher's Notebook and Howe's gunsmithing book that the arsenal may also have used mineral spirits.

Jerry Liles

[DLCTEX]

I bought turpentine from Ace Hardware about two years ago, when I made my last batch, $6.95 IRRC.

[whisler]

For what it is worth, the flash point (temperature at which vapors will ignite when exposed to flame) of Acetone is - 4 deg. F, MEK is 25 deg. F, Turpentine is 95 deg. F, and Mineral Spirits is 104 deg. F. As you can see, Acetone/MEK is much more flammable than Turpentine or Mineral Spirits. Mineral Spirits was probably substituted for Turpentine due to odor and cost. A quart of Turpentine costs almost as much as a gallon of Mineral Spirits, but does contribue more solvency than Mineral Spirits.
Man, I haven't typed this many words since i have been on this site. Finally found something I could contribute.

[Texasflyboy]

Good question. I'd like to know too. I'll ask him tonight. We shoot tonight after work.

I'll post what I can remember.

:-D

And the answer from Ed is:

Turpentine stinks. And it is much harder to find. He replaced the turpentine with a solvent that does not stink and is is easier for the average shooter to find and a bit safer to use.

Tom

[BD]

Turpentine mixed with linseed oil is famous in the homebuilding industry for it's ability to spontaneously ignite rags. I do not know if the same would be true for Ed's Red made with turpentine, but I have always avoided the turpentine for that reason. One less worry in life.
BD

[13Echo]

the spontaneous combustion comes from heat generated by the oxidation of linseed oil as it polymerizes. It generates enough heat in a pile of rags to cause fire even without turpentine. Add turpentine with it's comparatively low ignition point and the fire starts even easier. Turpentine by itself or mixed with the ingredients in Ed's Red should not result in spontaneous combustion.

Jerry Liles

[13Echo]

I've been trying to decide what to call my version using terpentine. I really shouldn't call it Ed's Red unless Mr Harris would allow it. Since I didn't use whale oil I can't even really call it Frankford Arsenal #18. Perhaps "FA #18 Modified" with the notice that "No whales were killed in the production of this solvent" ? That aught to get the PETA approval but what to do about the pine trees sacrificed to make the terpentine? Can't have a Politically Correct solvent if it means cutting trees. And what about the ingredients in the Dexron III? Were the plant oils derived from "organically grown" crops? Then there is the matter of non-renewable petroleum resources used. Oh what a can of worms has been opened! I'll have to keep my solvent hidden in unmarked containers and only use it when alone for fear of causing offense.

Jerry Liles

[sundog]

Jerry, 'Red Stuff'.

[leftiye]

"For fear of causing offense" Frack 'em!