Rifle in Pistol.....

[acemedic13]

xxxxxxx

[HeavyMetal]

I think large rifle primer's are a little taller than standard pistol so this my be an issue with 45 auto in a 1911 not sure about use in a revolver.

Rifle primers are supposed to be hotter than pistol so this may also be a factor depending on which powder your using.

The move I'd make in your place? If you load rifle keep some and then trade off some for standard pistol primers.

Post in the swap and sell section for a face to face and you'll avoid Haz Mat fee's and maybe make a new freind.

[725]

I have no experience and it won't be long before actually knowledgeable folks chime in, but it is my understaning that rifle primers are made thicker than pistol primers and thus are harder to ignite with firing pin impact. As long as it's not a magnum I would load one and see what happens. (Loaded empty case) If it ignites from the force of the pistol striker, I'd say you were good to go. Just my impression. I'll be interested in comments from those who really know what they're talking about.

[jhrosier]

Large rifle primers will not work in a pistol.
They are too tall.
You should have no trouble trading them for pistol primers though.

Jack

[longbow]

The large rifle primer is a little deeper than a large pistol primer so won't seat flush with he case head.

I found out many years ago while loading .44 mag using a Lee Loader. I didn't have any trouble shooting but occassonally I would have a primer go of while seating. That lead me to check and sure enough they didn't sit flush with the case head. They fit but there is a possibility of th eprimer being set off by the bolt closing on it.

Here is a link with primer and primer pocket info:

http://www.lasc.us/primerchart.htm

And another:

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_6-3_PrimersPrimingTools.htm

Even better:

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

Why they make them different dimensions I do not know.

Longbow

[BruceB]

You're going to hear a lot of "No, it won't work, no they're different dimensionally, etc etc."

It DOES work. As you mentioned, the load should be reduced a bit and worked-up again, just as in changing any component, and seating pressure may be higher to get them flush-or-below-flush....but it DOES work.

I've no doubt there'll be a lot of flak coming my way, but I have DONE IT. Living at the end of a thousand-mile supply line, subject sometimes to months-long seasonal interruptions, it was a case of either using them or doing without the ammo. As I recall now, it was only in .44 Magnum caliber that I made the substitution.

Not only that, but Canadian Industries did it back as early as the 1960s and '70s, loading their .44 Magnum ammo with the same primer used in their .30-06, .270, .303 etc etc etc...the 8 & 1/2 LARGE RIFLE primer. Even my S&W Model 29 ignited those rifle primers reliably. The CIL brass also loaded normally with LP primers.

I'll try a few .45 ACPs for seating and ignition later today.

A few weeks back I showed NVCurmudgeon that a large rifle primer seats safely in a US-made .44 case, too.

This question arises occasionally. On a previous discussion, I said that I would do a trial loading/chronographing, but medical events intervened and I didn't get a round tuit. I think it's time that I make another attempt. I have both single-and double-action .44s here, and I may toss a couple other guns into the mix, particularly a .45 ACP.

Having said all the above, I'd still recommend that you trade-off (or sell) some of your LR primers for LPs if at all possible. In the current primer market though, it's hard to say what success you might have. Selling might find a ready market, but trading...?

[runfiverun]

i could see using them in the larger revolver rounds but i don't think i would want the brisance level in a short case like the acp.
i do use rifle primers in the longer super mag cases quite often,
maybe the 44 mag or 45 colt but i don't think it would be a good idea in the acp.

[pdawg_shooter]

I use LRPs in my 44 mag but I have cut the primer pockets deeper. I get a lot better velocity uniformity with LRPs when I use H110.

[Firebricker]

One things for sure this is going to be a reoccuring topic with primer madness going on.

[BruceB]

Okay, the first part of this test is "fit and fire".

I selected the CCI 200 as being about the most "generic" Large Rifle primer out there. The following headstamps were picked, five cases of each make, and primed with CCI 200s:

in .45 ACP: WCC42, Sellier & Bellot, Winchester, PMC, and R-P.

in .44 Magnum: Midway (Starline), W-W Super, FC, and R-P.

All the cases primed easily with little extra pressure needed to get the primers seated to a safe depth (at or below "flush" with the casehead).

All the primers fired properly when tested on DOUBLE ACTION, using a SIG 220 for the .45 ACP and a Smith 629 for the .44s. Double-action strikes are typically a bit less-forceful than single action in the same gun, since the hammer doesn't fall quite as far.

So, that was 25 "rounds" in the .45 and 20 in the .44, with no failures to fire. Now, I have to make up some loads in each caliber that are precisely the same EXCEPT that half will have pistol primers, and half will be sparked with rifle primers. We'll see what the chrono tells us.

It may take a few days to do the rest of this.

[acemedic13]

xxxxx

[jcwit]

It fairly common knowledge that primers are to be seated a couple of thousands below flush of the face of the case. Knowing this how is doing this possible with a primer longer than the pocket in the case.

I see you say that it has been done and is safe, well maybe. At least its worked so far but how about the next time, or the one after that, ect., ect. We get all worried about the lead content of our blood and whether our gun cleaning supplies are safe to use in the basement, then try unsafe reloading practices.

In the end it's your gun and your hands and eyes. Would only take one slamfire.

The above applies to auto's, revolvers would be a different story as long as the cylinder rotates.

[jcwit]

Well first thank you for your service to our country.

Now then "What If" you seem to know it all with out taking any advice from the reloading manuals or others who have more than likely been reloading for more years than you've been on this earth. Do whatever you please as I now realize you are the type of person who has infinite knowledge "or stupidity" which ever the case may be, in whatever endeaver you happen to take.

By the way how it it you are able to follow orders or do you make your own rules up as you march thru life.

BTW I'm also a Vet., a disabled one at that, thank you for talking down to me, O Mighty One!

[hydraulic]

I grabbed the wrong box of primers and loaded LR in .38-40 cases with 35 grs. of 2 F. I discovered my mistake about halfway through, so loaded the other half with LP. Fired them in my Single Action and '73, mixed up, and couldn't tell any difference.

[mpmarty]

Wow! That's some attitude there dude.
Large Rifle primers in pistol cases work and if seated carefully are perfectly safe. If you get a batch of shallow pocketed cases of course you have a potential for slamfires in semi autos and such. I've used LP in rifle cases for years and find them better for cast boolit loads in some instances. I have also loaded 45acp with LR primers in a pinch for a steel match when I found myself out of LP primers. The LR primers worked fine in most cases, some wouldn't seat flush and I simply didn't use those cases. I don't remember which brand / type of case had the shallower pockets. At the worst, you will have an occasional LR primer detonate in a shallow pocket when seating and as there is no powder or projectile in the case no harm is done. Once seated if the primer is flush with the case head it is safe to use. I know, higher pressure blah blah blah. In tests by the NRA a rifle primer in a pistol load caused 2000 psi or cup (don't remember which) pressure rise. If you are stupid enough to be way over max then another couple of thousand pounds may be significant. In normal loads it just won't matter.

Of course, as usual, YMMV

[jhrosier]

I am surprised that nobody has come up with the obvious answer to the problem.
If you have a lot of large rifle primers, buy a large rifle!
The Garand or M1A should bring the 'problem' under control real fast.:Fire:

Jack

[acemedic13]

xxxxx

[acemedic13]

I am surprised that nobody has come up with the obvious answer to the problem.
If you have a lot of large rifle primers, buy a large rifle!
The Garand or M1A should bring the 'problem' under control real fast.:Fire:

Jack
xxxxx

[Char-Gar]

Guys, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have loaded LR primers in handgun brass that calls for LP primers. When seated with the same pressure, the LR primer stands tall/proud above the case head and drags on the recoil schield of a Smtih and WEsson sixgun. You can "horse" the LR primers into the cases with the primers flush with the case head. But I don't feel good about doing that. There is always the possibility of breaking the cake of priming compound resulting in eratic ignition.

If I had a piss pot of LR primers and wanted to use them in handgun brass that requires LP primers, I would get one of those LR primer pocket uniformers and enlarge the primer pockets to accept the LP primers without undue pressure. I had had no problems with handguns having enough "oomph" to light off a LR primer with style.

[Namerifrats]

LR primers are what I use in my S&W 500. The cases are made for them.

[jcwit]

Modifying cases to use LR primers would by an excellant way to go, safe also. Another option for 45 ACP cases are the new ones coming out to use the small pistol primers.

[gray wolf]

This is what I would do-----get yourself a large rifle primer pocket uniformer--Not a reamer for crimped pockets. This will cut the depth perfect for large rifle primers and is great for cleaning dirty pockets. Reduce your load and work up---and yes most are a little taller and the cup is a little harder---they could jam a revolver or slam fire in an auto.

Play it safe and plan your moves.

GW.

[BruceB]

The primer-pocket uniformer sounds like a good idea, and an inexpensive way of ensuring safety and good function.

I'd be curious to see if such a pocket (uniformed) would still work correctly with Large Pistol primers. I suspect that it would be just fine, as a wide variety of rifle cases have been doing great with LP primers for me despite the somewhat-shorter cup.

I've always viewed the substitution of rifle primers in pistol cases as a stopgap sort of thing, but it can and does alleviate a temporary problem. Inspection of the rifle primer after seating is critical, to avoid the mentioned problems of slamfires etc. In a situation such as that of the OP, a moderate modification (uniforming) of the cases seems to be a very good idea, indeed.

[NSP64]

I remember years ago a manual printed by the U.S. Army FM 25 something titled Improvised munitions. They told how to 'reload ' cases with strike anywhere matches and bolts for bullets. Thinking outside the box used to be rewarded, know you get sued. How many people told the Wright brothers it couldn't be done, or driving faster than 30 mph you couldn't breath. This is an information sharing site, you should always take advise with a grain of salt and respect the other poster.

[Dan Cash]

The use of LR primers in .45 ACP will radically boost pressure with a load intended for pistol primers. As the primer stands prooud of the cartridge head, a slam fire is assured. Don't ask how I know. In revolver rounds used in revolvers that have proper headspace, the large rifle primers drage on the the recoil shield and tie up the gun. If you get them to fire, you have pressure problems again. The exception is in some spedialized cases that are disigned for the rifle primer.
Dan

[BruceB]

"....a slam fire is assured."

"... the large rifle primers drage on the the recoil shield and tie up the gun."

"If you get them to fire, you have pressure problems again."

Just YESTERDAY, if you'll actually read this thread, I successfully seated rifle primers in .45 ACP cases in such a manner that they will NOT slam-fire. I also seated rifle primers in .44 Mag brass that did NOT drag on the recoil shield of the revolver used.

I successfully fired a total of 45 rifle primers in a SIG 220 and S&W 629, all using the lighter-impact double-action function in both guns. There were no failures to fire.

There's still a chronograph comparison test upcoming, but based on previous EXPERIENCE, I don't expect much in the way of difficulty.

[Char-Gar]

Bruce... I am interested in your data that will be forth coming. Like you I don't expect much if any difference in ballistic performance between the two primer.

[jcwit]

As long as the primer seats flush or just below flush a couple thous. can't see where there would be any problem, unless a FTF because of a broken primer cake.

Just so some ding dong doesn't try reseating high primers on finished rounds.

I tried the LR in pistol cases once and it didn't work for me, never could get flush primers. I use a hand primer, at that time one of the old Lee w/screw in shell holders, just couldn't do it. Never did try priming in the press, probably would have worked with the extra leverage.

[BruceB]

The test-firing was done today.

The brass was taken at random from a box that holds a couple of thousand cases, so it is almost certain that there was at least as much variety in the headstamps as I had in the primer-firing test.

I limited the test to .45ACP, loaded with 5.2 grains of #231 and corked with Lyman 452374 bullets, the 230-grain (nominal) round-nose. My reasoning was that, if a difference was observable, it would be more obvious with a quick-burning powder.

I made a 20-round sample with each primer, rifle and pistol, for a total of forty rounds.

With Large Pistol primers, the 20-round average was 745 fps, extreme spread 45 fps.

With Large Rifle primers, the 20-round average was 771 fps, extreme spread 66 fps.

A twenty-shot string for average should be very reliable in its findings, statistically speaking. All rounds fired and functioned normally in my SIG 220. NO slam-fires or other "excursions" were noted.

Nothing here surprised me, as I expected a SLIGHT increase in velocity (and thus pressure) when using the Large Rifle primer. I still believe that the suggestion of using a pocket uniformer IF we have to use rifle primers routinely, is a good one. If you only need a few rounds to get through a temporary shortage, the substitution has my blessing (for whatever THAT might be worth!).

These days a lot of my cast-bullet rifle loads are primed with Large Pistol primers. They apparently work just fine, so a slight modification of pistol-case pockets to LR dimensions should still allow the use of LP primers.

[over the hill gang]

Im use LR magnum primer, in my 460 S&W magnum I kave also used LR in my 44 magnum just reduce the load by 1/2 grain and work up from there.

[runfiverun]

i was more worried about the primer moving the boolit forward in the case then anything else.
but it seems at least in bruce's test that if he lowered the charge a half grain he woulda gotten dang near the same numbers [velocity wise]
and velocity generally equals pressure especially when dealing with all the sames.
as he was here, except for the primer.

how were the groups??

[acemedic13]

Hey Bruce, I had pretty much the same results with the exact same guns. I used h-110 in my 44 mag and bullseye in the Sig P-220. I also measured the height of the primer as it seats in the round. It was the same as a Large Pistol primer. I used CCI LR primers and winchester/magtech pistol primers for that comparison. The winchesters seated 1000th lower than than LR primer. The magtech was almost identical in every round.

I had a few rounds that must have got a little extra powder through the meter, and they were too hot. I pulled a few down and measured them. With bullseye can't go over 3.8 with a LR primer in .45 auto. I guess you could, but I would not suggest it. I did and got some hard action on my slide.

No slam fires on the auto or dragging on the revolver. I am sure in theory it could happen. So far after 100 rounds of both, it has not.

On my service rifle, there is no pin retention system, and we have special primers(allegedly) just for that reason, too avoid a slam fire. I wont go too deep into how I know civilian ammo wont slam fire in them, I just know.

Thanks again for putting experience over opinion and taking the time to do some real world testing. Too often things end up as arguments and not real, hard facts that can be used. I am going to try several different loads and several different primers. I will post the results.