Staining maple

[357maximum]

I decided this was the best place to ask this question as most of you all BP'ers have played with maple.


What if a feller wanted to stain a piece of hard maple lemon yellow and he wanted it to stay that way after a finish was applied? What would he use? I want it to look like freshly cut osage orange...forever.


Highlighting the grain a bit while this yellering was happening would be nice also.

I know there is some sweet specialty stains out there, but have no experience with anything other than tung/danish/tru-oil finishes. I have zero experience with maple..just walnut and birch.


thanks
Michael

[StrawHat]

Maple will eventually take on a reddish cast naturally. I have several stocks in the garage rafters and they are reddening up as we speak. I am not sure what to use to keep them "clear". Perhaps shellac? But shellac is soluble in alcohol and most likely gun oils so be careful.

Maybe a trip to one of the muzzleloading forums would get you an answer.

[Kuato]

I use BOILED linseed oil on all my bolt/ML stocks. Don't use raw linseed as it will never dry. To get the oil to penetrate deeper I thin it a bit with mineral spirits. I usually put 6 hand rubbed coats on the stock letting each coat dry for a day. Then after all the coats are dry, I let the stock cure for a week or so. I finish up with several coats of wax (beeswax) & buff the stock by hand..

The BLO will darken the stock slightly. Kinda like a honey color.

[smokemjoe]

I dye mine with Fiebings leather dye, They make yellow, orange, reds, Mix, or straight, Use a small piece to test. Last forever,Got some on rifles from 35 years ago and still same color.

[waksupi]

The leather stain is your best bet. The color will darken somewhat with age, due to the natural tannic acid in the wood.

[mooman76]

Get you a piece of scrap Maple and do some tests on it with several colors you think will work. Keep in mind the wood will darken some over time. Osage orange has kind of a redish cast anyway. great looking wood!

[Wayne Smith]

You will not effectively "stain" rock or hard maple. You will have to use an aniline die as mentioned above. Any good woodworker's website should show you a complete palette of colors. Woodcraft may be one of the most expensive options, but should show you what is available. They are available in either water or alcohol solvent, and if you use the water you will have to raise the grain and break it after using. Your desired yellow perhaps with traces of red should not be hard.

Why not have a stock made of Osage Orange? Granted, you will have to store it out of the sun or use UV blockers in your final finish, but you will have the color you want.

[madcaster]

And you may want to keep a couple slats of maple with different mixes of stains applied in sections with the formula written on it as well if you use leather stain.A friend,DRD,does that and it is a GREAT ideal!

[StarMetal]

This is what I would use:

http://www.veneersupplies.com/default.php?cPath=42

Trans tints are super good stains and you can mix them with certain finishes as toner too. For maple, I think you would want to use it as a stain first, then use it in an appropriate finish to tone the finish even more. The writeup on it is in the info of the product. You might need to blend the lemon yellow with a hair of orange to get the right color, or stain with yellow and tint with a little orange or something. This stuff will keep the grain visible too.

[waksupi]

The Mauser in this thread

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=10877&highlight=mauser

was done without stain, just a clear coat of Hunter Satin.

When you start using stains on any stock, assuming you have any sharp corners, when you do rub out, you will find you have light colored edges, where you have worn stain away in the process. You may want to just wet the stock, to get an idea of what color it will end up. You may like it, keeping in mind it will still darken some with age.

[Taylor]

Pint mason jar--2 plugs of apple chewing tobacco,place unwrapped chew in jar,top of with ammonia,wait 30 days.Strain with panty hose.It stinks to the high heavens but has the best color and blends with the grains quite well.Make sure you give it plenty of time to dry.

[357maximum]

Great googly moolies, I got some homework to do, thanks fellas

The osage stock idea is already in progress...just have to wait about 2 years for my wood to dry:roll:...I have maple coming that is ready for me to mistreat[smilie=1: so I figgered I would start there. My dad has a bunch of alchohol based dyes from his leather crafting days...I will likely start there (cheap)....I have a bunch of test "swatches" in maple to try...wish me luck eh.


thanks again, much apprecitated
michael

[357maximum]

The Mauser in this thread

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=10877&highlight=mauser

was done without stain, just a clear coat of Hunter Satin.

When you start using stains on any stock, assuming you have any sharp corners, when you do rub out, you will find you have light colored edges, where you have worn stain away in the process. You may want to just wet the stock, to get an idea of what color it will end up. You may like it, keeping in mind it will still darken some with age.


That is a beautiful work of art..wow verry nice

Stock making ability:
Ric<------ major league MVP.....millions of dollar contracts.

Michael<-----standing at the tee-ball peg wondering which end of the bat to use.

[oneokie]

For a look something like this?

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/oneokie/100_0671.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/oneokie/100_0672.jpg

[leadeye]

I'm impressed, we have some furniture finishers on this site. +1 to all the comments about NGR and analine stains, they will give you the color you want and still keep the clarity. Using a wash coat ( really thinned back version of your clear) can let you put a wipe stain over this to accentuate the grain without covering up the color.:-D

[357maximum]

That would be the look Nolan.

I would like to be able to "spring forth" the grain of the maple with an ever so slight reddish/bronze hue though. [smilie=f:


I hollered at dad on the phone.....he said I could have all of his exspensive dyes. He said he will never use them again..so I gained some leather dyes. I will go pick them up after the gun auction I am attending tomorrow.

[357maximum]

I have the leather dyes, most came from Tandy leather co, and boy oh boy do I have some experimenting on these test pieces to do. Thanks for all the help fellas.

[shotman]

If you can get some Nitric acid and play with it It will give a fast deep color. need to use baking soda to stop it . Another one to get the orange color is English walnut husks but they are only around in fall.

[swheeler]

Heres one I finished about 10/11 years ago, and a quilted blank I picked up this summer and had turned.

[stocker]

Potassium permanganate crystals dissolved in distilled water is purple but when applied to maple it turns the wood a nice red/orange tone. Has long been used to color gunstocks. Bright yellow I've never considered but one of the aniline dyes dissolved in alcohol might be your best option.
Water based stains will raise the grain and require light re-sanding and possibly need a second treatment. Alcohol based stains generally do not raise the grain.

[northmn]

I took a fresh cut tree to gunstock in about 3-4 months. Should you decide to use the Osage it can be done. You have to make sure the ends are well sealed. I used a hot box in which it was under heat continuosly. And also put it back in during building. The old one year to an inch air drying recommendation is 1/2 old wives tales. For one thing wood only dries to ambient humidity and a wood dried in Arizona will dry much better than one in Minnesota. Gun stock wood is dried to a point of brittleness or about 7% to maintain integrety to avoid warping. Most custom builders of ML's use Aqua Fortis or some of its equivalents, which is the nitric acid stain. Alcohol based stains work well also on gun stocks. I hold to the theory that you get a better look using the wood you like. If you want it to look like walnut, use walnut instead of a white wood stained to walnut.

Northmn

[BPCR Bill]

I agree with your assesment of finishing wood. If you want a stock to look like walnut, then use walnut. A nice gunstock can be pricy, but I have been fortunate the last couple of projects to get maple and walnut, both very nicely figured, for very reasonable prices.

Regards,
Bill

[725]

Mike,
shotman referenced using walnut husks to make stain. I put a bucket full in water last fall and have been letting it percolate over the winter. I have no idea what it will do to maple, but I can tell you those soaked walnut husks make a pretty good stain. If you want a small jar, just PM me with your info (name, address, etc.) and I'll send some along.

[357maximum]

Mike,
shotman referenced using walnut husks to make stain. I put a bucket full in water last fall and have been letting it percolate over the winter. I have no idea what it will do to maple, but I can tell you those soaked walnut husks make a pretty good stain. If you want a small jar, just PM me with your info (name, address, etc.) and I'll send some along.

Thanks for the offer, but I have my own waterbased homebrew walnut stain. I have two strengths of it in fact. I soaked whole nut/husks all winter in buckets, then strained it and boiled it down to what i wanted, added a pinch of sea salt to preserve and make it penetrate a bit better. I have used it successfully on a few refinish operations.


If osage would STAY yellow I would not be on this mission fellas...but alas it do not stay that way...I have a few projects which prove it.


Much appreciate all your help fellas, truly a ton of knowledge here...I think the lether dye will get my wishes fullfilled.

[725]

Good luck with the quest. Post some pictures as it progresses. Always interested in what others can do.
Regards, 725

[rick/pa]

Some of the hornmakers use Rit dye to dye their horns. Not sure how that would work on wood, but you could experiment on a scrap piece. Scott Sibley's book on horn making has details. Its available from Track of the Wolf.

[northmn]

Actually many woods take on a patina over time. Maple has a tendency to naturally yellow. You may not like the time frame, but it does. Due to that an original stain may get darker. Some BP builders like to make antiqued looking weapons and use amonia for a reagent. Curly maple is a great gun stock wood and is actually better than walnut for duability as it does not rot as easily with oils (some farm implements had maple grease bearings) and does not seem to crack as much. You see a lot of old walnut gun stocks cracked out. At one time walnut was for military guns and maple for the better rifles. Some suppliers like Muzzleloading Builders Supply sell special stains that bring out the curl and figure much better than dyes. They may have a blondie look you want.

Northmn

[swheeler]

The picture of the finished stock I posted was stained with MinWax yellow pine stain, a light coat rubbed in and let dry, then satin wipe on poly for top coat. Very durable finish with the yellow color I was looking for.

[357maximum]

Heres one I finished about 10/11 years ago, and a quilted blank I picked up this summer and had turned.

That is some pretty wood you have there....that quilted butt is sure purdy.

[swheeler]

357; Thanks I like them both, but yes the quilted is a cut above. I can hardly wait till I get a chance to start on that quilted stock, quilted from one end to the other. I was doing some work for a gentleman this summer, and as usual the conversation turned to guns and hunting, he said I've got something to show you. He came back up from the basement with the blank, said he had bought it in Colorado in 1985 for 65.00, and would never get around to using it, I gave him a 100$ off his bill, I think I did OK!

[marlinman93]

Why not use what the gunsmiths of the 1800's used? Chromium Trioxide. It gives a beautiful yellowish-orange look to maple, and it can darken it to whatever degree you want, if left on long enough. Simply apply it with a rag and keep an eye on the wood. When it gets to the color you like, wipe it with a rag wet with water to stop the process. It will lighten up slightly whenwetted, so experiment with the color and reapply if you stop it too soon.
Dixe Gun Works sells CT for about $6 a bottle. It comes as a dry powder, to add water until the bottle is full, let stand overnight, and apply later. As it ages it gets stronger, so weeks later it will work even faster.
http://www.dixiegun.com/

[waksupi]

If yuou use Chromium trioxide, you better be sure to neutralize it afterwards. Otherwise in a year or so, it is going to be a screaming green color. Fine for St. Patty's day, but inappropriate at most other times.

[357maximum]

If yuou use Chromium trioxide, you better be sure to neutralize it afterwards. Otherwise in a year or so, it is going to be a screaming green color. Fine for St. Patty's day, but inappropriate at most other times.

Don't worry, I won't be. Strong oxidizers do have other uses around here though[smilie=1:

[swheeler]

I just tried to KISS, hardware store, finishes isle, hardwood stain(in the color I wanted) and top coat

[Ricochet]

I dye mine with Fiebings leather dye, They make yellow, orange, reds, Mix, or straight, Use a small piece to test. Last forever,Got some on rifles from 35 years ago and still same color.That's exactly what Dixie Gun Stock Stain is. I think Fiebing's Red Mahogany is the equivalent. Their regular Mahogany is browner.

[357maximum]

I am cheap...but I like the aqua fortis thinking...but I am cheap.........so I reached into the old memory banks and then tried something.


I took and made a mixture of 1/2 lye and 1/2 KNO3 (potassium nitrate) and then added enough distilled water to it until it quit precipitating. I then soaked a piece of vegetable tanned leather in it. So far (3days) into it it seems to have worked on some 1/4 sawn hard maple. It looks like a real light butternut colored stain when dry. The blush of light heat from a distant flame sure makes it pop and get a bit darker. If this "experiment" works for a few months with no ill effects it will be what I use on my maple underhammer wood....unless someone can point out a problem I am missing.

[Hang Fire]

I decided this was the best place to ask this question as most of you all BP'ers have played with maple.


What if a feller wanted to stain a piece of hard maple lemon yellow and he wanted it to stay that way after a finish was applied? What would he use? I want it to look like freshly cut osage orange...forever.


Highlighting the grain a bit while this yellering was happening would be nice also.

I know there is some sweet specialty stains out there, but have no experience with anything other than tung/danish/tru-oil finishes. I have zero experience with maple..just walnut and birch.


thanks
Michael

Vinegar and iron works great for dark maple. I just take steel wool pads and wash well with detergent to remove any oils, get a quart of vinegar, pour into a large glass or plastic big mouth container, put in steel wool, and screw on a vented cap. (it will generate gases as it boils off) Let sit until reaction stops working and then apply to maple stock. You can make it very dark by repeated applications, or lighter by fewer.

Here is one stock I did using the vinegar stain, I like a darker maple for a plain hunting rifle.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/Two.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/FOUR.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/THREE.jpg


Nothing new about this, goes a long way back, I have found one type of vinegar works as well as another.

["Staining curly maple

Curly maple—fiddleback, tiger-tail, or whatever you may call it—requires a staining technique all its own. Maple with a curl was the favorite wood for the stocks of the muzzle-loading rifles of yesteryear. The staining method described here has come down by word of mouth from the old gunsmiths. Great-grandpa used two stains and he made both of them. For the first you must find a handful of rusty cut nails—very old and very rusty cut nails are best. Place about a dozen in a soup bowl and cover them with homemade apple-cider vinegar, the stronger the better. Do not use a metal dish and do not substitute synthetic vinegars or white vinegar. Cover to prevent evaporation and let stand for two weeks.']

http://jimnevins.net/woodworking/Fine%20Woodworking/contents/methods/110009017.pdf

[357maximum]

Hangfire..I made a batch..seems to work well...another tool in the belt...thank you


Does your mix come out a little green looking in the jar?


BTW that is one sweet looking rifle...nice:drinks:

[kingstrider]

While I haven't moved into making gun stocks yet, I have a bit of experience refinishing as well as using figured woods when building custom guitars including various maples. For a lasting lemon yellow color, Behlen's analine dyes are hard to beat. I prefer the premixed types but the powdered dyes are cheaper and can be mixed with hot water or alcohol. I have jars on the shelf that were mixed 10 years ago and are still good to go. The colors are UV-resistant as well which is a plus:
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t138/kingstrider/kitty1a.jpg

On items with a lot of end grain like stocks I get better results spraying the stain on using a jamb gun instead. This tends to even out the color and improve the overall look substantially. I have several guns for dedicated uses and the ones sold at Harbor Freight work as good as any others I've used:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=86

Another alternative is to first seal the wood and then spray stain over it. The advantage here is the sealer makes the grain look "wet" so that it pops out even more. This guitar was done in that very way starting with a lacquer sealer coat, followed by a base coat of yellow stain and then sprayed with a red & brown sunburst on top:
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t138/kingstrider/sealer1.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t138/kingstrider/stain1.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t138/kingstrider/jacklow-1.jpg

This might not be the way to go with a field gun however as any dings might go through the color which is pretty thin. Finally, darkening over time is primarily a function of exposure to light and/or oxidation depending on wood type. This can be minimized by clearcoating with some sort of UV blocker though I've never tried one before.

[357maximum]

WOW

I never stop being impressed by the talented bunch of individuals that land here. That is some durn fine looking geetars. I am going to try my blended alcohol stain concoction for my first go round with the underhammer......then go from there. I made up a couple batches of dyed aqua fortis I am currently testing on some blocks. I wanted to make another batch of aqua fortis but I broke my retort,,,gravity. My distilled fortis is weaker than I figure/guess the boughten stuff is....but I am just doing a multiple pass thing to compensate..........we will see when my test pieces have aged a bit. I am in no hurry on this endeavor.

WOW The guns/guitars/machinery etc pics posted here both inspire and humiliate me.................unreal.

[Hang Fire]

Hangfire..I made a batch..seems to work well...another tool in the belt...thank you


Does your mix come out a little green looking in the jar?


BTW that is one sweet looking rifle...nice:drinks:

No green, almost black.

Thanks on the rifle comment, was and may be the last one I made, it is a .54 with a Getz barrel.

[Hang Fire]

WOW

I never stop being impressed by the talented bunch of individuals that land here. That is some durn fine looking geetars. I am going to try my blended alcohol stain concoction for my first go round with the underhammer......then go from there. I made up a couple batches of dyed aqua fortis I am currently testing on some blocks. I wanted to make another batch of aqua fortis but I broke my retort,,,gravity. My distilled fortis is weaker than I figure/guess the boughten stuff is....but I am just doing a multiple pass thing to compensate..........we will see when my test pieces have aged a bit. I am in no hurry on this endeavor.

WOW The guns/guitars/machinery etc pics posted here both inspire and humiliate me.................unreal.


Aqua Fortis, AKA nitric acid. Here is a hint for a readily available no hassle aqua fortis, take a look at the #1 ingredient in Birchwood Casey Plumb Brown, it is nitric acid. I have had very good luck using the Plumb Brown diluted with distilled water to desired strength for staining maple stocks for a lighter or darker color.

[357maximum]

Aqua Fortis, AKA nitric acid. Here is a hint for a readily available no hassle aqua fortis, take a look at the #1 ingredient in Birchwood Casey Plumb Brown, it is nitric acid. I have had very good luck using the Plumb Brown diluted with distilled water to desired strength for staining maple stocks for a lighter or darker color.

Actually Nitric Acid water is not all that hard to make from Potassium Nitrate and reduced battery acid....just have to have a chemist's clue and be careful.

I am actually starting to like the looks of another process I picked up off the net.

Step one coat stock with a weak mix of lye/water..let sit a few mins on warm approaching hot stock wait 5- 15 mins.

Step two coat stock with vinegar to nautralize...wait 15 mins

Step three coat with plain water daub off excess let dry.

I wet sanded very lightly with 400 grit between steps and am very pleased with the depth I can peer into the wood. I have a few sample pieces getting exposed to different climates in the house and in the barn both in light and out....just waiting to see what happens. On one set I added dye made from boiled osage orange sawdust...I am really liking the looks of that yellowish/brown I got from that process........testing for color fastness right now and it is seeming to hold it. Basically right now I am just systematically PLAYING to see what I can do with things.

I thank ye all for the ideas.:drinks: