20 to 1 vs. wheel weights

[stumpjumper]

ive read in other place`s that the reason for softer boolits in bpcr is so the boolits will bump up to the rifling. i guess i dont get it. if you are shooting a boolit that is .459 in a barrel that is .458 what is there to bump up to. anyone shooting the holy black with wheel weights, or even hard cast. i am wondering what kind of results your getting. thank`s Dave

[218bee]

I'm new at this game, but from what I understand .......for example I have a Trapdoor that slugs over .460 so I need the bullets to "bump up" or order a custom mould. From my experience shooting Black when it goes off its much more of an explosion in the cartridge causing the "bump up". I may be wrong.....but if your bore is smaller than the boolit in black powder cartridge (not like say a smokeless pistol round) you may want to size boolit to more closely match bore. Most knowledgeable shooters use 20-1 or 30-1 mixtures. Don't know if wheelweights may cause more pressure being harder?? Or more leading??
I guess I didn't answer your question but thought I'd throw in my .02. I am learning about this Black business every time I load or think I get something figured out...I've been loading for over 40 years but feel like a newcomer with the Holy Black

[BPCR Bill]

ive read in other place`s that the reason for softer boolits in bpcr is so the boolits will bump up to the rifling. i guess i dont get it. if you are shooting a boolit that is .459 in a barrel that is .458 what is there to bump up to. anyone shooting the holy black with wheel weights, or even hard cast. i am wondering what kind of results your getting. thank`s Dave

Stumpjumper,
Wheel weights are ok, but for very good accuracy you should use a known certified lead / tin alloy. Wheel weights aren't that consistent in alloy, and therefore weight and hardness. Like alot of other BPCR shooters, I have a custom mould that drops a specific weight and diameter boolit with a specific alloy. I slugged my barrels and did a chamber cast and sent the information in to the mould maker. I have one boolit design now that shoots great in both my 45-70 and 45-110. Both are .450 bore and .458 groove diameter, and that is the diameter of this boolit with a 20:1 alloy. Alloys that are too soft in a BPCR rifle will lead foul, and you will get tumblers, especially if you shoot in hot weather. Been there, done that. Softer boolits will bump up, but they also cast to a smaller diameter in a given mould. Harder boolits cast a bit bigger (This by maybe .002" - .003"). A boolit that is .459 in a .458 groove diameter barrel will shoot pretty good, provided it isn't too soft to begin with. Hope this helps.

Regards,
Bill

[Don McDowell]

Bullets as hard as #2 alloy will "bump up" in bpcr.
Wheelweights can be good in bpcr's. Bullets cast from wheelweight will come out very close to diameter, and weight to those cast from 20-1. Problem comes mostly as Bill said as to the great unknown ingredients content in them.
Ww's used to have alot more lead in them than they do now. They seem to be somewhat harder and contain more tin/antimony, and who knows what else than from even 20 years ago.
I quit using wheelweight in bpcrs as they don't shoot as well as 20-1, and trying to keep 20-1 bullets for match shooting and wheelweight bullets for practice will invariably have you on the firing line at a match with ww bullets that just don't hold up as well at xxx yds as the 20-1 do.

I still have a 5 gallon bucket of the older higher lead content bullets held in reserve for the days when buying 20-1 isn't in the budget, but the newer wheelweights I only use for smokeless rifle and handgun loads.

[Limey]

Stumpjumper,

I've only ever shot home cast, water quenched, wheel weight bullets out of my Pedersoli Sharps repro in 45/70......

Most accurate gun I have ever owned.

No leading.

No key holing.

I get the wheel weights for free.

48 grains of 2F, Lee 405 grain hollow base bullet, home made lube, cotton wool filler, I'm knocking holes in paper not buffalos, no more power /stability needed....cheap shooting.

I am very happy.

Safe shooting,

Limey

[montana_charlie]

ive read in other place`s that the reason for softer boolits in bpcr is so the boolits will bump up to the rifling. i guess i dont get it.
There are rifles which will not chamber a bullet as large as the barrel's groove diameter. I'm not sure how that comes to be, but some of the original trapdoors have that reputation.
For them, alloy that 'bumps' easily or hollow-based bullets are the only way to get reasonable accuracy.

As for the use of soft lead/tin alloys in modern-made BPCR rifles, Mrs. McDowell's little boy Donny spoke for most when he said that 20/1 bullets produce better looking paper targets than w/w bullets.

A deer probably wouldn't notice the difference, and if your targets satisfy you with w/w holes in them there is no reason for you to change, unless...

CM

[Don McDowell]

MC that's with an ie not y

[montana_charlie]

I'll not make the same mistake twice. But I must beg your indulgence for making it once...
CM

[Don McDowell]

:-D:) Well alright, but so longs as you don't let it happen again.....:-D:mrgreen:

[Lead pot]

Don


:???:Wuts the diff day sound the same[smilie=1:



BPCR Bill.

Who in the world ever told you that soft bullets will tumble ?
I wouldn't want my bullets to ever hear you say that:-D
Depending on the ogive I use 1/40-1/18 and dont get a bullet hole oval or key holed on paper @ 600 yards.
If your getting key holes your problems is something different that soft bullets like trying to shoot then at jacket velocity's.
Pure lead will lead a bore less than some of the hard BHN20+ some shoot.
Lead it self is a lubricant, you add tin or antimony to lead and that is what mostly is feft behind.
Try this some time.
take pure lead and take a clean iron rod dip that rod in a pot of pure lead and wipe it off and see how much lead is left behind.
Now do the same with a pot of 1/20 alloy dip the rod in it and with it off. I think you will see what I'm talking about.
That would be like soldering a copper pipe with pure lead and see if it will hold water like solder with lead /tin.

[missionary5155]

Good evening
My Bausky Barreled Roller 45-70 shoots WW and 50/50 as well as anything... whether 2f or Smokeless propels it.
My 43 Spanish Prefers Near pure. My pedersoli prefers 50 /50 . All Rollers.
So ya just need to experiment (YIPEE...) and find out whats best.
My 1884 Large Bore Trapper (.463+) prefers near Pure even with a .464 Rapine boolit.
My 2 jap wimnnys just do not seen to care... any mix and any weight shoots fine. They measure sort of tight about .456+...
I am thinking the OLD wide rifling determins some of that. Irregularities in the barrel....
But it only takes a couple more range times and you will know for sure which mix to use.
God Bless ya

[Lead pot]

I'll go along with the wide rifling.

[BPCR Bill]

Don


:???:Wuts the diff day sound the same[smilie=1:



BPCR Bill.

Who in the world ever told you that soft bullets will tumble ?
I wouldn't want my bullets to ever hear you say that:-D
Depending on the ogive I use 1/40-1/18 and dont get a bullet hole oval or key holed on paper @ 600 yards.
If your getting key holes your problems is something different that soft bullets like trying to shoot then at jacket velocity's.
Pure lead will lead a bore less than some of the hard BHN20+ some shoot.
Lead it self is a lubricant, you add tin or antimony to lead and that is what mostly is feft behind.
Try this some time.
take pure lead and take a clean iron rod dip that rod in a pot of pure lead and wipe it off and see how much lead is left behind.
Now do the same with a pot of 1/20 alloy dip the rod in it and with it off. I think you will see what I'm talking about.
That would be like soldering a copper pipe with pure lead and see if it will hold water like solder with lead /tin.

Lead Pot,
Why, no one TOLD me they would tumble! If someone had told me, I wouldn't have cast those boolits out of such a soft material! By the way, I experienced absolutely no key holes, as the boolits never made it to the target. All I heard was a weird sound like a june bug on cocaine, my spotter saw the boolit strike the ground halfway to the intended destination. I can't for the life of me figure out why I cleaned my barrel and got sooo much lead out of it. The lead in question was actually melted down from isotope containers from a hospital radiology lab. I had screwed up, got some ingots mixed up and cast boolits from that nearly pure lead, and went on my merry way to a match. Also, as I have said elsewhere, a very soft boolit will cast to a smaller diameter than a harder boolit, so I probably had some degree of gas cutting on a boolit that was trying to upset to bore diameter. As I said in my earlier post "Been there, done that". And yes, I get some degree of leading during a match with 20:1, but I will never shoot a pure lead boolit through any of my rifles again. And the velocities were at around 1300fps for a 530 Postell, hardly smokeless velocities considering I was useing Goex 2F.

Kind Regards,
Bill

[Lead pot]

Bill

There are a lot of factors with the lead problems then alloys.
I think the biggest contributer starts right at the chamber design.
Gas cut's is at the low end unless a very hard alloy is used.
When a black powder charge goes off, that bullet obtrudes to the full diameter allowed by the chamber dimensions before that bullet clears the case mouth with most alloy's used from 1/16 to 1/30 with a PP bullet.
A hard GG bullet might have some gas cut problems as it enters the throat but again I think that happens in the gap from a short case to the now normal 45 degree chamber end. But that is an assumption on my part.

[BPCR Bill]

leadpot,
I agree that a soft alloy will obturate more readily than a hard alloy, thus filling the chamber ahead of the throat, and while still in the case mouth. "Tumblers" that I have had personal field experience with did not occur on the first or even second or third shots. It was after four or five shots that the problem occured, and that with a very soft boolit as described before.
I agree that throat design and lead in angle have a direct bearing on this anamoly as well. My chambers are cut with a custom design, the 45-70 reamer designed by Steve Garbe and Dan Pharris. I had Pacific Tool and Die make my reamer on that design that they had on file, with a 25 degree lead in angle. I forget what the lead in angle is on my Shiloh 45-110, but it is the factory reamer from Shiloh. And that is the rifle that I had the soft alloy problems with. Again, this is personal experience that has brought me to this conclusion, and not some story heard second or third hand. My shooting partner had the same thing happen to him, because he used the same boolits I had cast on the same match. I was not a popular guy, but hey, he doesn't bug me for boolits anymore.
As far as PP boolits, I am a bit new to that and am still working on loads and technique. I bought some 40:1 swaged straight boolits to begin with, for a 38-55 as well as for my 45-110. Though I have a ways to go in load development, I can assure you that the patches are working fine, as there is no leading, and the patches are cutting off in the rifling as they should. Plus the boolits are seated in the case mouth no more that .25" and the majority of the boolit is already in the bore.
My thoughts on boolit "Obturation" are this. Dependent on the chamber design, bore diameter, groove diameter, you still have to have a boolit that will fit the chamber / throat. In that moment of ignition, if you start to have some bit of gas blowby on the boolit, even in the case mouth, you are also compromising the lube in a GG boolit, one ingredient that not only keeps the fouling soft, but works to minimize leading. If a shooter has a mould that casts to one specific size in a harder alloy, say 20:1, and he casts with a softer alloy, he will have a boolit that is smaller in diameter. When does obturation cross the fine line to deformation?
One trick that the Schuetzen discipline emplyoys is to breech seat the boolit. This is to get the boolit started straight and true in the rifling, as well as to minimize obturation. To check to see if the boolit is going to be effective, you breech seat the boolit, prime an empty case, and fire the primed case in the rifle. Upon opening the breech, the trapped gas should eject the case. If it doesn't, that means the boolit was not sealing the bore, and there is gas blowby.
Again, I agree that some rifles will shoot very soft alloys very well. Mine, however, do not. I attend the Quigley match every year, and invariably there will be someone on the line that has those crazy Junebugs flying out in front of their rifles. Just listen, and you can hear them.:drinks:

Regards,
Bill