.357 Elmer Keith Load

[brianintheup]

One of Elmer Keith's loads for a .357 was 158 gr. bullet behind 13.5 gr. of 2400 @ 1325 FPS (http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=21). This was loaded in 38 special brass. My sierra reloading manual 5th edition lists max load for a .357 as 15 gr. @ 1250 FPS. Does it really make that much of a difference if you use 38 brass compared to .357 brass?

Brian

[JudgeBAC]

I would think that bullet in a .38 special case would encroach upon the powder space which would run pressures up. Additionally, the newer 2400 is hotter than the old formulation and you must use current data.

[NHlever]

I think that might have been a Skeeter Skelton load, and he used the Lyman 358156 boolit crimped in the rear crimping groove. That gives the case nearly the powder capacity of the . 357 case though the cases are not as thick, or as strong generally. I have used that load quite a bit, and like it in my Security Six revolvers. I wouldn't put more 2400 behind any 158 grain boolit in the .38 Special case!

[brianintheup]

I am aware of the difference in burn rate of the older 2400 and the newer 2400. The Sierra loading manual has 10.3 gr of 2400 being max in a 38 special they are using a S&W K-38 as their test gun. It states a velocity of 950 FPS.

Would the different burn rate account for the difference in velocity. The manual states 14 gr of 2400 produces 1200 FPS. The data from handloads states that 13.5 gr. of 2400 @ 1325 FPS. There are two variables case and powder burn rate. Which one causes the difference or is it a combination of both?

Brian

[felix]

Combination of everything, including chronos. ... felix

[FN in MT]

Most of the .38/.357 loads Elmer Keith wrote about generally had HIS #358429 slug listed not the #358156GC slug.

In "Sixguns" he states; "For use in the .38 special cartridge to be fired only in guns like the .45 frame Colt or heavy S&W, we load a charge of 13.5 grains of #2400 with the 160 gr Keith Lyman hollowpoint, or 173 grain solid bullet and get killing results that are not to be obtained with any other combination in this cartridge".

This was written SIXTY or even SEVENTY years back, with OLD 2400.

Keith was known to load right to the ragged edge back then. Years later when the H P White Labs crono'd and pressure tested some of his loads the results were borderline SCARY.Very high pressures in a few of them.

FN in MT

[76 WARLOCK]

How old does 2400 have to be to be classified as old? I have some that is 30 years old. would Alliant be able to tell by lot number?

[Slow Elk 45/70]

If it is 30 years old, it is in the class of...OLD

[9.3X62AL]

I'm uncertain of the re-formulation timeline, it seems like aproximately 10 years ago, or roughly at the time Alliant took over from Hercules. Just not sure. Does someone have better info?

[brianintheup]

Most of the .38/.357 loads Elmer Keith wrote about generally had HIS #358429 slug listed not the #358156GC slug.

In "Sixguns" he states; "For use in the .38 special cartridge to be fired only in guns like the .45 frame Colt or heavy S&W, we load a charge of 13.5 grains of #2400 with the 160 gr Keith Lyman hollowpoint, or 173 grain solid bullet and get killing results that are not to be obtained with any other combination in this cartridge".

This was written SIXTY or even SEVENTY years back, with OLD 2400.

Keith was known to load right to the ragged edge back then. Years later when the H P White Labs crono'd and pressure tested some of his loads the results were borderline SCARY.Very high pressures in a few of them.

FN in MT

What combination would you recommend. I am shooting a Colt Trooper MKIII. I have 158 gr, 170 gr, 180 gr hard cast bullets for my .357. Of coarse I will be using new 2400.

Brian

[FN in MT]

Brian,

WHAT do you want to do?? If you want to shoot .357 mag velocity loads out of a .38 Spcl case I have zero input.

If you have .357 brass and wish to use 2400 I'd get a current loading manual and start there. I load very few .357 mag loads. I feel that if I need .357 mag power, I may as well carry one of my .41's or a .44 spcl.

I DO load a lot of .38 spcl though a lot of it with the #358429 168 gr slug as well as the 160 gr #358446 slug. I use UNIQUE , Universal Clays, depends what I want to do.

Theres tons of .38 and .357 data out there. Start a few grains lower and work UP.

FN in MT

[EDK]

Elmer Keith designed his boolits when there was no 357 magnum and he used the N frame Smiths in 38/44...and pushed the envelope pretty d--- hard.

Today, there is plenty of 357 brass...and unfortunately too many lawyers looking for deep pockets---like your homeowners insurance for starters! I wouldn't load anything very hot in 38 brass just in case someone uses one of your reloads in a *** 38 special. and gets injured. There's been a bunch of threads on numerous forums on this topic. I don't like the situation, but ignoring reality and potential liability law suits could be very expensive.

358429 has a long nose compared to other designs since it was designed for 38 casings in the afore mentioned N frames. It may be too long in magnum brass for some guns, but that's pretty common knowledge.

Unfortunately the new RANCH DOG TLC 359 190 is too long to work in my unaltered MARLIN 357 Cowboy....I'd been eagerly waiting for it for months. So now I have to either alter the gun to use it or look for something else. The TLC 432 265 has been a great performer in my 44 Cowboy and I had high hopes.

So welcome to the real world. Start low and don't get too wild. Ultra high performance isn't worth the trouble...and the wear and tear on your guns!

ED'S LAW: IF YOU NEED MAXIMUM LOADS, YOU NEED A BIGGER CALIBER!

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[brianintheup]

Ed's Law is a pretty good law. At this point in time there are two other handguns that I would like to get and then I feel as though I have my bases covered. I want a .44 mag and a .460 rowland.

My consideration of the Keith loads is for hiking in black bear country. Thus, the magnum loads. I need a bigger caliber I know but I have to work with what I have now.

Brin

[EDK]

Look around for a LYMAN 358432 mould. They're discontinued and gaining some popularity, but still available on eBay and forum classifieds. (They need a group buy on this one!) Do a search here on it.

It is a 160 grain wadcutter with a large nose portion out of the casing. I loaded them with the same over all length setting as 358665 AND they fed in my 357 MARLIN Cowboy rifle in magnum casings. Do some serious load development with 158 grain loads as a starting point; I just got the mould and haven't done a lot yet.

Ask one of the law enforcement types who Jim Cirrillo is....the New York PD stakeout legend. He made a statement to the politically incorrect effect that "a 160 grain full wadcutter in the eye socket was an instant fight stopper!" and he was using a 38 Special model 10.

If you like 44s, take a look at Blammer's group buy on the full wadcutter 44 at 240 grains+ from Old West Bullet Moulds. I got the four cavity and love it...gotta love them sharp edged 44 caliber holes in the targets too! I'm using them in my VAQUEROS and a S&W 629.

Your 357 will work...a 44 would be better, but going to a more efficient boolit shape will upgrade any caliber. Cast them a little hard for penetration and do your homework on your loads until you're satisfied. "Anything you shoot close up will be deafened, powder-burned and have some big holes in it."

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[Marine Sgt 2111]

One of Elmer Keith's loads for a .357 was 158 gr. bullet behind 13.5 gr. of 2400 @ 1325 FPS (http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=21). This was loaded in 38 special brass. My sierra reloading manual 5th edition lists max load for a .357 as 15 gr. @ 1250 FPS. Does it really make that much of a difference if you use 38 brass compared to .357 brass?

Brian

I have three old (mid 1950's thru early 1960's) and they classified .38 spl's into two classes, one for "heavy frames" and the other at regular .38 levels. In the heavy frame catagory they list a max load of 12.5gr of 2400 with a Thompson semi wadcutter. For .357mag loads the levels of 2400 go from 15.0gr to 15.5grs with the same gas checked semi wadcutter.

[brianintheup]

Has anyone used Buffalo Bore ammo? 180 gr. LFN-GC (1400 fps ME 783 ft. lbs.) It looks pretty impressive to me. That's 400 fps more than my reload manual shows as max. It almost doubles the ft. lbs of energy.

How do they get these results and claim that their ammunition is safe to shoot in all steel frame revolvers?

Brian

[Old Ironsights]

Has anyone used Buffalo Bore ammo? 180 gr. LFN-GC (1400 fps ME 783 ft. lbs.) It looks pretty impressive to me. That's 400 fps more than my reload manual shows as max. It almost doubles the ft. lbs of energy.

How do they get these results and claim that their ammunition is safe to shoot in all steel frame revolvers?

Brian

Yes, and Yes.

In a RIFLE that load actually hits about 1800fps. I haven't chrony'd it out of the pistol, but it shoots just fine out of my Ruger SP101... though it has a pretty good bark.

[AKtinman]

Look around for a LYMAN 358432 mould. They're discontinued and gaining some popularity, but still available on eBay and forum classifieds. (They need a group buy on this one!) Do a search here on it.

It is a 160 grain wadcutter with a large nose portion out of the casing.


This is a favorite of mine. Be aware that it came in both 148 and 160 gr versions if you are looking for one.

There was a thread a few months back concerning a GB on this one, but apparently not enough interest to proceed.

About 35 years ago when my eyes were better but I wasn't as smart as I am today (!) I used a 160gr 358432 over a healthy dose of 2400 in the 38/44 Outdoorsman. Worked great on the coyotes I tried it out on. Probably more of a Skeeter-influenced load than an Elmer load.

[mainiac]

What combination would you recommend. I am shooting a Colt Trooper MKIII. I have 158 gr, 170 gr, 180 gr hard cast bullets for my .357. Of coarse I will be using new 2400.

Brian

If you want my opinion, stay away from max loads with this gun.I had a colt tropper mark IV, I think it was called,back in the eighties,and it was the most accurate .357 i ever owned!!!! After a not very many diet of max loads i shot this gun loose. Never over loaded it, but after 1000 or so rounds it became very loose,and started spitting lead,with a loose cylinder. Knowning what i know now, i never would have loaded it over about 1000 f.p.s. Have never owned a more accurate .357 since,so please be careful.

[tactikel]

I have used the 168 gr swc over 13.5 gr of 2400 in my S&W 28-2. It is VERY stout. Do not use this this load in a .38 spl !!

[Kosh75287]

Honorable mention for 7.8/Unique/158-160 RNFP-PC. 1286 f/s from my 4" Ruger, 1364 from my 6" S&W M28. It may not be QUITE the load that Uncle Elmer touted, but I find it a shade more controllable. I also wager that neither man nor beast could tell a difference between the two, if hit with either.

[50target]

Brian, the load in question is a very very hot load in a 38spl and honestly I wouldn't use it in a Colt Trooper. No offense to you but the internals aren't sturdy enough IMO. An earlier post mention was made of the bullet with 2 crimp grooves that allowed the bullet to be seated out further. That point is critical. If you load a regular SWC with one crimp groove you are probably treading on thin ice. In my younger days I did that and locked up an S&W K frame. Got it loose and shot it again with same results. Broke the rest of them down. My point is that if you are using this for bear protection and I hope you mean black bear, a locked up revolver isn't much good. If the bear is a species bigger than the black bear, then a less powerful load to use on yourself is more likely in order. Robert Frost, the poet, said humor is the last sign of seriousness. Bear business is serious business. I load 13.7 gr modern 2400 behind a 158 gr gc swc (357 Mag) and it is stout. Whether the 2400 is old or new isn't an issue. You should always work the loads up carefully whatever the powder is, even changing from one lot to another or changing primer brands. Tactikel in his post makes a very good point. Heavy frame guns only..
Lots of decisions to make but we're it me I would have to rethink where I hike until I got more adequate bear medicine. Pass along an old joke and I am not being irreverent as I am a person of faith but the Almighty calls us to be wise. Country Pastor had to walk through the woods to get to his weekly prayer meeting. Met a bear and it turned bad and when he got to the church they mended as best they could and someone asked if he prayed. Said he did but found out it was great for a prayer meeting but not much good for a bear meeting.
Stay safe both loading and hiking.

[Larry Gibson]

I have thoroughly pressure tested Skeeter's 357 load in 38 SPL cases using the 358156 over Alliant 2400. Suggest looking at post #1 in https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?415979-Skeeter%92s-357-magnum-load-358156-w-2400-in-38-SPL-Cases.

As you can see the 13.5 gr load is, indeed, "very stout" running at 37,900 psi which is above the SAMMI 35,000 psi MAP for the 357 magnum. I also do not recommend that load except in the Ruger BH, S&W M27/28, Colt Anaconda and other similar large frame 357 magnum revolvers. Years ago, before I could pressure test, I worked up to Skeeter's load in a Ruger BH. I found a load of 12.5 gr of Hercules 2400 was much more to my liking, was pleasant to shoot and very accurate. Testing with Alliant 2400 shows that load runs 33,200 psi in the test. I still find that load to be an excellent one and out of my 6" Ruger SS it runs 1250 fps with excellent accuracy.

I also have tested the 36-168K bullet (courtesy of Outpost75) which is similar to the 358421 bullet. The 169 gr bullet seated to the crimp groove with a heavy crimp in Winchester 38 SPL cases, WSP primers over 12 gr of Alliant 2400 the pressure ran 28,900 psi. It runs just over 1200 fps out of my 6" Ruger SS. That is what i would consider to be a top end 38/44 load.

Note; any seating depth [not to be confused with OAL] variation of other bullets used can and will have an effect on the pressure.

[beltfed]

FWIW,
Note quite re. 38-357 . But:
Back in the '80s, when I was shooting Handgun Silhouette, using my M29 44mags
I had been using the classic Elmer Keith load of 22 gr (old) 2400 under "his" 429421 bullet to good effect
BUT, on hot days, I encountered higher primer pressure signs, though extraction was still OK.
I then went from the Double Base 2400 to the single base IMR 4227, loaded accordingly to about same velocity. 1330fps across my Oehler 33.

I also switched to IMR4227 from 2400 in my 357 revolver and rifle.
beltfed/arnie

[curiousgeorge]

Back in the late 70's 357 brass was scarce around here, so I did load some of the Skeeter load of #358156 in in 38 special cases with 13.5 grs of 2400. Have only shot them in Ruger Blackhawks, but stopped loading due to concerns that one could find it's way into a 38 special gun if something suddenly happened to me and the fact that 357 cases started becoming more available.

[robg]

I use that load under a 165gn gc boolit in my trapper works well and accurate.spent ages getting to that load then i read Elmers book could have saved so much time ,oh well.

[gunther]

A related problem not addressed, is that , if you use a lot of ammo loaded in 38 special brass, in a 357 revolver, you better clean the cylinders regularly and like you mean it.The crud buildup in the chambers ahead of those 38 cases may give you trouble. Like blown primers with factory ammo. Personal experience....

[1hole]

ED'S LAW: IF YOU NEED MAXIMUM LOADS, YOU NEED A BIGGER CALIBER!

Elmer Keith's Cartridge Law - seconded by myself - is if you need to load much ammo down you really need a smaller caliber. Today we have so many burn rate powders that it really isn't necessary to load to the ragged edge of a KABOOM! in order to make and safely use full power ammo. Any quality firearm will, or should, last a very long time with full power normal-for-the-caliber ammo. IMHO.

[Alferd Packer]

Google Lymans 3rd Ed. cast Bullet manual online and download it for Free.
Get your loads and then delete it from computer or cell phone memory.
Best to verify those loads first.
There are loads using 2400 powder in there if you can find the powder.

[sniper]

Some time in the past, I tried the "Skeeter load", Just to see. New 2400, 13.5 gr., 357 Magnum brass, 158 gr SWC, small pistol primer, S&W 586, 4" barrel. Hoo BOY! Eargesplitten Loudenboomer! I decided that i'd rather shoot somewhat milder loads.

Skeeter came along some time during Elmer's heyday, and likely "borrowed" a load or three from Elmer's writings, because they worked for him! Reliable loading manuals were somewhat thin on the ground back then. Lyman was there, but others?

He was a Border Patrol officer for much of his career, and they weren't paid a lot. He was on the pistol team, so had access to scads of free once-fired .38 special brass. 357 Magnum brass was hard to come by, and expen$ive, so he used what he had.

It seemed to me that Skeeter's value was in finding loads that worked for his jobs at the time...the "cow killer" load, and the one he used to shoot a Yucca plant for a friend. His telling of a shootout with some criminals, that when the air had cleared, all they found was a hat with a bullet hole in the crown reminded me of my police officer uncle's tale of shooting several times at his reflection in a mirror when he investigated an open door in a dimly lit store.

I think some of his best was supposedly written at a bar, whose name I can never remember at Hachita, New Mexico. Hachita, N.M. actually exists! I liked it when he and Dobe Grant started reminiscing. I think we shall sadly never see the like of Skeeter and Elmer again.

[GLynn41]

The load was never intended to be used in a .38 it is a .357 round only - and was in a .38 special to allow it to be used in a shorter .357 mag cylinders. Thanks for the pressure data Larry. I sometimes wish I had gotten into that years ago-- but did not and stayed with just a chrono. Any way thanks

[Thumbcocker]

13.5 of 2400 under a 160 grain rnfp in MAGNUM brass is the go to .357 load around here.

[brassrat]

I have some 158 gr XTPs loaded up but just stored. 15.5 gr. of, yr. 2010 or so 2400 powder. I have shot a few, but only in my Dan Wesson, with no problems. They are stout and not for .38s, thats for sure.

[robg]

used 2400 since early 80s hercules seems the same as the new alliant in my guns.