Range Report: 96-year old Winchester 38-40

[KirkD]

Well, after four months of no serious shooting, I figured it was time to get to the range and try out a new powder. I've been very interested in IMR SR4759 for the reason that it seems to give a pressure curve very close to black powder. Here's a report on the results of my first two loads, which turned out to be a bit conservative.

Rifle: Winchester Model 1892, made in 1913

Caliber: 38 W.C.F., also known as the 38-40

Original Black powder ballistics from 1896 Winchester catalogue: 180 grain pure lead bullet @ 1,268 fps

Load #1: 15 grains of IMR SR4759 under a 180 grain RCBS FN PB bullet sized to .401
Load #2: 17 grains of IMR SR4759 under a 180 grain RCBS FN PB bullet sized to .401

I'm proud to say that I cast these bullets myself (just started casting last fall)!

Chrono results of Load #1: 974 fps with an E.S. of 27 fps and an S.D. of 12 fps (5-shot reading)
Chrono results of Load #2: 1,094 fps with an E.S. of 105 fps and an S.D. of 35 fps (10-shot reading)

Here's a photo of my old 96-year old 38-40 ....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/Desktop%20Photos/38-40-800-pix.jpg

First off, I tapped the rear sight over a tad, since previous trips to the range showed that it was hitting a bit to the left. To see if I'd adjusted properly, I set up a target at 50 yards and I fired off two rounds that had not been neck sized at all. The bullets were loose in the neck and held in by the crimp. I didn't want to use these in my official test, so I used them as sighters. The two bullets were very close to dead center laterally so I set up a target at 100 yards. Interestingly, the two bullets that were loose in the necks gave me exactly 100 fps more velocity than the same 15 grain load did when I sized the neck halfway down to the shoulder.

Load #1 Results at 100 yards:
First off, I was amazed at how slow the velocity was. Ken Waters lists 1,153 fps for the same load. Mine putted along at a sedate 974 fps. The rear notch is a small notch within a larger notch, making the top shoulders of the sighting notch not well defined. As a result, my vertical hold was a bit dicey. After 8 rounds fired into the 100 yard target, I had a horizontal spread of only 1 & 1/2", but a vertical spread of a whopping 4 & 1/4". I'm sure it was the problem of the poorly defined shoulders in the rear sight notch. I will have to do some work on that notch. Anyway, here is a photo of the target .....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/Range%20Results/38-40-15gr-4759.jpg

Load #2 Results at 100 yards, 5 minutes cooling after first 2 shots:
I tried a lot harder to obtain some sort of consistency with my vertical hold on the rear sight notch. After two shots, I headed down range to take a look. It was encouraging, so I went back and fired off the remaining three rounds for this set. Again, I was surprised at the low velocity I got compared to Ken Waters for the same load. He got 1,339 fps and I only got a measly 1,094 fps. The necks were still sooty, so I'm definitely not getting a very high pressure with this load. I got a decent 5-shot group of 2 & 3/8" (100 yards with open iron sights). Still possibly a bit of vertical spread, but I was pleased. Here's a photo of the target ....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/Range%20Results/38-40-17gr-4759-slow.jpg

Load #2 Results at 100 yards, 5 fairly quick shots, no cooling:
Finally, I decided to crank out 5 shots in a row with no cooling, but still with reasonably careful aiming. This group was not too bad, 5 shots forming a 2 & 7/8" group at 100 yards, but it was spread a bit more horizontally. I wonder if it was from a warming barrel. Here's a photo of that target .....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/Range%20Results/38-40-17gr-4759-fast.jpg

Concluding thoughts:
Ken Waters lists the max load for Group two rifles as 19 grains of IMR SR4759. I don't know if his batch of 4759 was different from mine, but I do know that his batch would have been a sight older than mine, just bought this past month. I really want to develop a hunting load of around 1,500 fps. Next loads will be 18 and 19 grains of SR 4759. If I can't get 1,500 fps with the 19 grain load, I may have to go with 2400. I see I still have to tap that dadgummed rear sight over a wee bit more.

[dubber123]

I'm sure you know already, but just in case...You do know you can move the front sight the opposite of the rear to get the same effect? I have to do this occasionally. I prefer both to be moved just a little, than just the rear to be moved a notceable amount.

I would be delighted if I were you for first run out. A little more powder, and the necks will seal, and I bet accuracy will improve. Not much to complain about right now though!

[KirkD]

I'm sure you know already, but just in case...You do know you can move the front sight the opposite of the rear to get the same effect? I have to do this occasionally. I prefer both to be moved just a little, than just the rear to be moved a notceable amount.!
My front sight is dead center, but my rear sight was a little bit to the left, so I'm glad to be able to tap it to the right. A wee bit more to the right and it should be pretty well centered, and the bullets should be hitting pretty much dead center as well.

[Vly]

KirkD - Beautiful rifle and nice write-up. That same rifle is coming to me some day from my FIL, so I find your load data and experience very interesting.

Please post more as you work with this rifle in the future.

[dubber123]

My front sight is dead center, but my rear sight was a little bit to the left, so I'm glad to be able to tap it to the right. A wee bit more to the right and it should be pretty well centered, and the bullets should be hitting pretty much dead center as well.


Aaah, Perfect! :drinks: There is not much that irritates me more than sights that need to be drifted WAY off to one side. It tells me something wasn't screwed together straight.... It would appear they knew what they were doing 90+ years ago. Nowadays on the other hand... :roll:

[gon2shoot]

Well done Kirk, glad to see your casting efforts aren't going to waste. :drinks:

[Rustolium]

I always enjoy your pictures!

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Good Report !
One thing to remember is these older 1892 Winnys had to be able to handle Black Powder loads Still for sale throughout the U.S. So you will probably find a GENEROUS chamber / throat area. This was done so follow up rounds would still chamber without undo force needed on the lever to chanber the round.
My 1892 Winny SRC made in 1893 has a throat area that slugs .432+ . Some of this Excess diameter is from erosion but it is NOT that ruff. It will shoot Cast/Black powder loads reasonable well a good while (with a .427 standard diameter Winchester mold boolit) before needing a wet patch. But with smokeless (Unique) my Winny needs a .432+ boolit if I want good acccuracy.
If you have not Slugged your chamber/throat area I would recommend it. I did not see that info included. These rifles are capable of very good accuracy with a properly fitted boolit.
God Bless you

[KirkD]

I slugged my bore but cannot find the slug and paper right now. However I recall it was around .4005 groove diameter. I've not got a chamber cast of throat area. However, if it can give an 8-shot lateral spread at 100 yards of less than 2", I'm happy. I just need to get a better sight picture when it comes to the vertical. I did try .403" bullets, but they gave poor accuracy.

[missionary5155]

Sounds like you have a good one !
For a bettter target why not try a upside down T.... The verticle bar will give you a precise right & left and the Horizontal gives a deffinent up and down. About the only time I like to use the circles is if I am shooting a rifle with peep& circular globe front.
I have several 38-40´s up in Illinois and I use mostly Unique... there are MANY Good powders to choose from (thankfully) but I bought a bunch years ago and happily I have not run out yet.

[KirkD]

That upside down 'T' sounds like a good idea. That might help a bit with that blurry rear notch.

[405]

is grossly underrated! so, thank goodness, command slightly lower prices than the 44-40s. :p Another interesting side bar is that I've become convinced that potential buyers whether they realize it or not simply have been brainwashed into thinking the 44-40 is much more macho than the 38-40... at some level thinking the 44-40 is a true 44 cal and the 38-40 is a true 38 cal (or even 357 cal :p)

No matter, the 38-40 in the 92 is a very nice combo. As to tinkering with your load?.... those groups at 100 are very, very good! Seems like it will be tough to get much better. They are especially good given the use of the factory barrel sights. The only way I could improve shooting with some of my old levers was the addition of a tang sight.

[KirkD]

I certainly agree with your view on the 38-40! I'm glad I finally 'discovered' it. As 405 hints, the '38' is a bit of a misnomer, as is the '44' in 44-40. The former is a true 40 caliber and the later is a true 43 caliber.

405, I do have an original tang sight sitting here waiting to be installed, but I just need to get some screws to attach it. I'd really like to see what this rifle can do with a tang sight.

[Reddot]

The photo you took of the rifle on the deer skin is absolutely gorgeous. Are you a professional photographer? The lighting, color contrast, and composition are wonderful.

[KirkD]

Reddot, thank you for the compliment. I'm not a pro. I'm just a fellow with a pocket digital camera (an old Canon S-50). I have to confess that I took a bunch of photos until I found one that seemed alright.

[FromTheWoods]

Kirk,

I too enjoy your posts. Photos, data, and a true love of Winchesters!

My favorite rifle to carry is the 38 WCF '73--my Great-Grandfather's. Many contented days walking trails in the woods.

[w30wcf]

Kirk,
Thank you for the range report. Nice vintage rifle, write up and pics! Perhaps your lot of 4759 is a bit on the slow side(?). In my .44-40, 17/4759 pushes a 205 gr. cast bullet to almost 1,300 f.p.s. I do use a 155 Federal magnum primer though.

Hope the 19gr. load works out for you.

w30wcf

[JDL]

Thanks for the report and pic Kirk. Those old '92s have a aura about them that's not matched by most anything else. That is some fine shooting with open irons and I find myself wishing for my younger eyes of the '70's. At that time, I thought it was nothing to shoot a good score with my muzzleloader at 100 yards.
JDL

[Lead melter]

KirkD,

I'll go along with Reddot on this one. Lovely photo. I saved it as the beckground image on my computer, hope you don't mind.

[KirkD]

KirkD,

I'll go along with Reddot on this one. Lovely photo. I saved it as the beckground image on my computer, hope you don't mind.

You are welcome to use it as a background image. In fact, if you would like a high res version good for a large monitor, PM me with your email address and I'll email you the hi res version. Glad you like it.

[w30wcf]

has a nice article on the .38 W.C.F. / .38-40 in the current issue of the RIFLE magazine.:-D
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri243partial.pdf

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Kirk,
You may want to try some magnum pistol primers with 4759. I have found that when loading 4227 (similar in burning rate to 4759) in the .44-40 to b.p. pressures, magnum pistol primers added 100 f.p.s. over standard pistol primers.

Interestingly, when loading some .44-40 high velocity cartridges for my Marlin '94 (1,700 f.p.s. - not for '66 or '73 Winchesters) with 4227, there was no difference in velocity between either primer. That, no doubt, was due to the higher pressure developed, allowing the powder to burn more efficiently.

Regarding 4759 in the .44-40, I just went through my loading notes and found that the magnum pistol primer averaged about 70 f.p.s. more than the standard primer at the 17 gr. charge level.

w30wcf

[KirkD]

John, I just got finished loading up another batch of 38-40 rounds using three different loads and then checked this thread and saw your posts. I loaded ....

18 grains of 4759
19 grains of 4759
and just to check to see if my chrony is full of balony, I loaded up 8 rounds using 15 grains of 2400, which I know should give me about 1,400 fps from past measurements.

I'll try this out on Thursday, if the weather permits.

I don't have any magnum pistol primers, but I think I should pick up a box and see how they do. In the meantime, how do you think a large rifle primer would do?

[TxBaylea]

I am glad to see this thread. I have a younger '92 in 38-40 that I have had for more than 50 years that I am planning to restart loading for. After a flood and a move I cannot find any of my old notes so have to start from scratch.

I have a few acres in central Texas and feral pigs are becoming a problem again. I want a rifle that I can carry with me on the tractor along with my new model Blackhawk in 38-40.

I did go back and get the 38-40 data from Phillipe B. Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Reloading" It was last published in 1953 so most of the powders are obselete. The few that have modern counter parts probably have been reformulated so I planned to go carefully working up a load. Now that someone is ahead of me I will follow with interest especially since I do not have a chronograph.

I do have an old Lyman mold #40043 to use after I run out of the remaining bullets I have on hand.

I case you haven't guessed, I started reloading in the early 50's. :mrgreen:

Vernon

[KirkD]

Vernon, you must be getting near to being an old-timer! I was only born in 1954!

[w30wcf]

Kirk,
If you were to try those, you would likely need to deepen the primer pockets on your brass since they are several thousands taller.

Several years ago, I did modify 5 W-W .44-40 cases to accept them. Didn't see any advantage compared to the 155 Federal large pistol magnum primers with the 17/H4227/200 or 16/H4227/215 recipies.

Since you don't have any large pistol magnum primers, it would be something to try.

Historically speaking, the early .38-40 and .44-40 cases used small rifle primers which have about the same gusto as large pistol primers.
I have a batch of early .44-40 cases that I use 6 1/2 Remington small rifle primers in.

w30wcf

[TxBaylea]

Vernon, you must be getting near to being an old-timer! I was only born in 1954!

Yeah, I will be 78 in a few months. Lot'sa aches and pains but I manage to get around.

Lever guns are my favorite: 3 92 25-20's, 1 38-40, all rifles; 1 94 32-40 rifle.

My fun gun is a 65, 218 Bee; bought a Browning 65 218 Bee to shoot.

Vernon

[w30wcf]

Vernon,
WELCOME to the forum! Sorry to hear about the flood and your aches and pains.
I'm about in the middle between you and Kirk. I turned 65 last September, started reloading in 1968 and casting
bullets in 1974. I'm still learning.

Like you and Kirk, I like the dash cartridges. :drinks:
Currently, l have .30-30's (7), .44-40's (2) and a .45-70.... all leverguns. I want to add a .25-20 sometime in the future.
Also have about 75 bullet molds(!) from .22 caliber to .54 caliber.

I am fortunate to also have the Phil Sharpe's Complete Guide To Handloading.....the first and the 1953 versions.

Regarding your 40043 mold in the .38-40. I have a single cavity 40043 mold as well. A friend of mine has a vintage Winchester '73 rifle. He and I have crafted some .38 W.C.F. ammunition using this bullet with both black and smokeless powder. As we know, this bullet was designed after the original .38 W.C.F. / .38-40 bullet to be used with b.p. since there is no crimping groove.

That is fine with b.p. since it will support the base of the bullet but with smokeless, there can be a problem since there is nothing to support the base of the bullet (unless using a capacity load of slower burning RL-7 powder).

Two ways to avoid that problem. 1.) Use a Lee factory Crimp die. That will push the crimp into the bullet, thus making its own crimping groove. Or, 2.) Remove about .10" from the bottom of the sizing die. That will allow the neck to be sized down far enough to help support the base of the bullet.

Sincerely,
w30wcf

[FromTheWoods]

I'm a '54 kid too.


Vernon,
That Blackhawk will take care of your pig problem! You need a Winchester .38-40 to go with it!
I've sent you a PM.

[TxBaylea]

w30wcf

Thanks for the welcome. I have a Lee FCD on order as I am aware of the problem and was previously using Winchester Soft Points in my loads but can't find them now. Still have a few left to use.

Anyone have a load for those?

Vernon

[MT Chambers]

I can understand the desire for loads with 4759, a favourite powder or mine, however Trailboss has become my "go to " powder for these pistol cartridges. Just a few grains fills the case up, no chance of double charges, accurate and clean burning, give it a shot!!

[KirkD]

I loaded up some 38-40 cartridges with 19 grains of 4759. I'd say it is pretty nigh a capacity load. No chance of a double charge with the 38-40 and 4759. I'm eager to test these loads in the next few days, weather permitting.

[hydraulic]

I guess I fit into this age group; 71. I have a Colt SA in .38-40 (1896), and a Winchester '73 also in .38-40 (1881). I have only loaded 35 grs. 2F under the Lyman 40143, and I'm a little concerned about using smokeless powder in these old guns. Sounds like Trailboss may be the thing to try. I have been loading with an old Lyman #4 tong tool, but the seating chamber is worn and doesn't crimp the bullet adequately; bullets tend to creep out of the case when firing, so I bought a Lee Fractory Crimp die and it works great. Accuracy in these old guns is not spectacular, but lots of fun to shoot offhand at 50 yds. The wife shoots them better than I can.

[1950Target]

A cousin of mine has a 92 RIFLE in .38-40 that has passed down from my Great-Grand Fater who bought it new in 1896. It is of legendary accuracy. I've shot it twice in my life with WW factory ammo and the thing is unbeleivable. It is as slick and tight as can be and from a rest at 50 yards it is almost boring throwing those boolits into a single ragged hole all with the original semi buckhorn rear and brass bead front.

Recoil is mild, its not that loud and it was my GGPappy's "Deer Rifle."

He passed 26 years before I was born so I have no idea how many deer he took with it but I would imagine there were a few between 1896 and 1930 when he passed four months shy of his 100th birthday.

[KirkD]

1950Target, I imagine your GGpappy harvested a lot of deer with that fine old 38-40.

[405]

I can understand the desire for loads with 4759, a favourite powder or mine, however Trailboss has become my "go to " powder for these pistol cartridges. Just a few grains fills the case up, no chance of double charges, accurate and clean burning, give it a shot!!

I too have played with a lot of "suitable" powders in both the 38-40 and 44-40 shooting soft cast at BP pressures and velocities. While slightly stiffer charges of the slower powders (maybe even with the mag pistol primers) may clean up the load..... I start getting a little antsy in the older BP rifles and revolvers. Seems the very high expansion ratio/short cases like the 44-40 type prefer a slightly faster powder like Trailboss or even Unique. (Trailboss meters so much better than Unique it's hard to deny that selling point)

I just went thru two chrony sessions with an old Win 73/ 44-40. Used 200 gr original style cast at 20:1 for all loads with regular LP primers. Tried 4759, IMR 4227 and Trailboss. The loads were designed to keep MVs between 900 and 1200 FPS.

By FAR the cleanest burning loads were, as expected, using Trailboss.
By FAR the largest SDs were from the 4759 and 4227.

May be that both 4759 and 4227 (the slower powders) need more pressure to "clean up" and burn consistently. Since I also shoot these loads in old Colt SAAs... can't risk even going there to test the theory.

The Winchester 92 (or modern Win/Marlin designs) being much stronger would be the platform to test these loads to see if performance can be improved using stiffer charges of the "slower" powders in the 38-40 and 44-40.

Final note: since 4756 is often seen in manuals it's good to double check load data. I know there have been mistakes made between 4759 and 4756- way different powders!

[KirkD]

Thanks, 405 for posting that info. I still have not had time to get to the range to test my next loads with 4759. I'm thinking that w30wcf's recommendation to use Magnum Large Pistol primers might give cleaner burning for the same load. I don't have any, but plan to get some tomorrow.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I have been loading and shooting 38-40 in my Winchester 73 for a number of years. I cast Lyman #40143...now 401043 from an old single cavity mold. The as-cast diameter is .403, but I shoot it as cast. The accuracy is pretty good....around 3" at 100 yards. The problem I ran into was that when I started and made up the first few rounds; I tried them and found that with the bullet seated and crimped behind the first bullet band...that the round was too long to enter the cartridge carrier completely and the carrier would not come up. I then tried using the Lee factory crimp die which allowed the bullet to be seated with the case mouth on the front band where a sort of three-dent crimp held the bullet tight. It worked, (the round as such was of shorter OAL, but I didn't/don't like the brass (which is pretty thin to start with in the 38-40) to get chewed on/worked excessively and we all know what that soon leads to. I decided to trim the case length back a bit and go ahead with seating the bullet so that the slight crimp I use is once again behind the front band. Rounds hold their OAL well in the mag tube and feed reliably. It works well for me that way. The same (trimmed) brass works very well in my Ruger (Buckeye)Blackhawk with no visible effect on accuracy. Again a slight crimp is used to hold the 40143 bullet, and in the revolver the rounds are seating on the rim of the case anyway; 38-40 in a revolver is a great backup gun. LLS

[w30wcf]

I too have played with a lot of "suitable" powders in both the 38-40 and 44-40 shooting soft cast at BP pressures and velocities.
......I just went thru two chrony sessions with an old Win 73/ 44-40. Used 200 gr original style cast at 20:1 for all loads with regular LP primers. Tried 4759, IMR 4227 and Trailboss. The loads were designed to keep MVs between 900 and 1200 FPS.

By FAR the cleanest burning loads were, as expected, using Trailboss.
By FAR the largest SDs were from the 4759 and 4227.


405,
In my experience, as you mentioned, the slower burning powders in the .44-40 do give larger SD's at lower pressures but if the powder is positioned to the rear before firing, the SD's I have recorded run in the 15 to 20 range. Magnum pistol primers help as well. The reduced bullet pull with the thinner case necks as compared to other pistol calibers doesn't help either.

For whatever reason Trailboss gave me some of the worst groups in my original Winchester '73 but does aok in my '94 Marlin.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

May be that both 4759 and 4227 (the slower powders) need more pressure to "clean up" and burn consistently. Since I also shoot these loads in old Colt SAAs... can't risk even going there to test the theory.

The Winchester 92 (or modern Win/Marlin designs) being much stronger would be the platform to test these loads to see if performance can be improved using stiffer charges of the "slower" powders in the 38-40 and 44-40.


I have been working with higher charges of 4227 and 4759 in a '94 Marlin Cowboy Ltd. I found that at the higher pressures the SD was also in the 15 to 20 range, but this without the powder charge being positioned to the rear in the case since the cartridges were being fed from the magazine. At the higher pressures, I also found that the advantage of the magnum pistol primer went away with both the std. and mag. primer giving pretty much the same velocity.

w30wcf

[45caster]

Thats a sharp looking rifle and pretty impressive groups

[otteray]

Have you tried Unique?
Works pretty good with my 1889's peep sight and 60 yr old eyes.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/otteray/Marlin/1889Marlin-1.jpg

Here's about 1 1/2" @ 100 yards with a 175gr. Old West Bullet sized .406"
Lee Factory Crimp die, either 6.5 gr or 6.8gr Unique; I can't find my data records!

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/otteray/Marlin/1889Marlin001.jpg

[otteray]

Dang it, I just saw that you are going for 1500 fps!
My loads are only 1100 or so.

[KirkD]

Otterray, that sounds like an excellent load for the range. I imagine the recoil is almost unnoticeable, and those groups are excellent!

[ray ott]

Been using 3F Goex,XMP 5744 15gr behind Ly 40143 in Colt Lightning 25" bbl.
Would like to try V-V N-105. Results not to brag about,yet (hopefully).

[Speedo66]

I'm shooting an 1889 Winchester 1873 in 38-40.

Loading 180g round nose flat point over 4.5g of Trailboss.

Very light load, but seems to be very accurate. Recoil is non-existent.

I'm only shooting at 25 yards, but can shoot out the black in the target if I do my part.

[Stillwater]

One reason for the 38-40 is, is that it shoots a little flatter than the 44-40... If you're splitting hairs with somebody...

Bill