Patches turn on bullets after sizing

[Marlin Junky]

If the patches end up turning on the bullets after sizing is the hope for any accuracy gone? The patches are still snug enough not to slide off the bullets easily. I think I screwed up by applying Rooster Jacket before sizing. I was planning on shooting them the day after tomorrow. Should I still shoot 'em, or am I wasting my time?

MJ

[wonderwolf]

I take it they are not the correct size after you patch them to shoot through your gun? What size paper are you using and is it possible to correct the problem by using a thinner paper and not having to size then at all? as far as the bullets you have sized and have on hand. Why not shoot them and see what happens. Although I would think perhaps the jacets might be a little more easy to tear if they are not hugging the bullet so tight.

[pdawg_shooter]

You might try sizing the bullet before patching to .001/.0015 over BORE diameter. Use paper that will give you a slight press fit in the throat. Lube and run through a push through die large enough to just sort of iron on the patch and remove excess lube. BTW I use white lable BAC for all my lubing now. You dont want to reduce the bullet diameter inside the patch.

[docone31]

My patches do not turn when they are dry.
I suspect, you are not wrapping them tight enough.
I have a feeling, my use of the roller contributes to the tightness of the patch so when they dry, they dry down like shrink wrap!
You might have to presize, then wrap, then size. That is how I do it and so far I have had great success.
I do not know how Rooster lube affects the paper. I do know, too much auto wax and the patch gets soft.
I would give them a try if they can be loaded up. The worst that will happen is you will get zero accuracy.
My first patches, I did dry completely. They also performed real well.
At least, you are gettting to this point.
The more things that show up now, the more profecient you will get.

[docone31]

Phineas,
I really enjoy your research. A lot there.
Several points I noticed,
You run the grain with the centerline of the casting, I run it across the centerline.
I cast my castings real hard.
On drying,
I wrap my castings, let them sit. Humidity is an effect on the integrity of the wrap. Also, my well water might be a factor. Down here, scale is an incredible issue. Our softener gets a lot out, but, the scale might also be a factor. The calcium carbonate might be a contributing factor to the adhesion of the patches.
I subject my wraps to a lot of abuse in sizing. It just seems to lay them flat. The wax(s I use also seem to make them adhere.
You sure do have a lot of research in your writings. I am very interested in why I have gotten results like I have. I kind of attribute it to beginnners luck, except, I have repeated it. Different atmospheric conditions, high humidity, low humidity, A/C on, heater on. I have noticed changes in the drying of the paper, but not in the finished performance.

[Marlin Junky]

I'll read PB's post in a minute but (assuming I don't need to allow JPW to dry over night) I'm going to re-patch about 15 castings tonight and shoot them along side the loose patched rounds tomorrow morning. This means I'll need to oven dry the patches on but I think that'll work OK. This time I'm not going to apply Rooster Jacket.

MJ

[docone31]

Oven drying is adding another variable.
My wraps dry at least overnight. Oven drying, might, interfere with the shrinkage I am getting.
My thoughts on that are that oven drying speeds the drying process, reduceing the patch settling on the casting.

[rhead]

I have oven dried them before. It did not ruin them and I doubt that it helped over air drying. I would try a few with more tension wrapping yhe damp paper and a little more tension twisting the tail before drying try some with no lube and some JPW and other lubes that you have. Also unwrap the bullets that are slipping. Mike them and record the size. Rewrap them a tightly as you can and let them dry. These should not need sizing or at most minimal sizing. Maybe you will at least know the size you will need the bullet to be before sizing. Good luck you still have a ways to go before you have made as mich scrap as me.
Last summer our intern described a problem she was having, I told her what she had overlooked. Later she asked how I could know what she hadn't done and I had to tell her that I had made that same mistake more often than she had done the test correctly the previous summer. It hurts to be ol;d. Her mother is the same age as my oldest son.

[Marlin Junky]

I re-patched all 40 rounds while incorporating the oven at 170F for both patch dehydration and drying the JPW. My patches are all tight and the rounds are loaded for Thursday's range session. One thing I need to work on is patch application because patch-shrink looks like it could be a lot more consistent even though I'm carefully applying patches with a patching board ala Paul Matthews. When I wet my patches, I submerge the patch (25# Strathmore tracing paper which is .002" thick) just long enough to soak both sides of the patch and dry the board with a paper towel before each application so the patch doesn't slide around.

MJ

[docone31]

Wow, that patch board sounds like a pain in the butt.
Untill I get a 45/90, I will stick to my rollers.
When I wrap, my roller gets soaking wet.
Interesting on the oven drying though. I had visualized it would dry faster than the paper could catch up. Since you kept the oven real low, I can see how it would work. The main thing is keeping the ambient air dry around the patch. Since it is real humid here, it is an issue.
Looking forward to seeing your results.
What is the final sizing?

[montana_charlie]

One thing I need to work on is patch application because patch-shrink looks like it could be a lot more consistent...
When I wet my patches, I submerge the patch (25# Strathmore tracing paper which is .002" thick) just long enough to soak both sides of the patch and dry the board with a paper towel before each application so the patch doesn't slide around.
I don't dry the board between patches. I initially lay the saturated patch on the surface well above where I want it, and drag it into position. The water makes it adhere to the board like steel to a magnet.

When the patch is lined up with the marks, it won't move around while I fiddle with the bullet position, and get the pointy patch tip in place on the ogive, to begin the roll.

I watch closely as the pointy tip goes over the bullet and matches up with the leading edge of the patch. After that my hand obscures the front edge of the patch, so I just watch the rear end to make sure that edge of the paper matches exactly.

Some guys will roll the patch on while pulling back on the bullet, in order to put some stretch in the paper...to get a tight patch.
I pre-stretch the patch with a couple of passes with a plastic roller...before laying the bullet on.

I don't do tails, so when the whole patch is on...I continue the rolling motion while raising the bullet's nose. That starts the crease on the base.
After one full revolution I just keep turning the bullet, but don't need it to continue to roll up the board. The water acts as a lubricant, so the paper doesn't 'drag' on the board, and by the time I have turned the bullet twice more while raising the nose, the base is flat on the board...and the base wrap is flat to the base.

The water lubricant and a smooth board allow all of this to occur without tearing the wet paper.

I lift the bullet, and set it on the drying surface with a slight twist to make sure the base covering snuggles down flat in it's creases.

At room temperature, I find the patches dry in two or three hours.

CM

[docone31]

Charlie,
you have no idea how I value your experience.
There will be a day when I use a board. I have dreams of a Rolly Block someday.
When I have one, I will use your experience.

[John Boy]

... the patches end up turning on the bullets after sizing
Do believe that when rolling the paper, not enough downward pressure is applied against the board. Give this a try: After the paper is lined up on the bullet - start rolling forward using the palm of your hand while applying downward pressure.
Have never had a finished bullet with the paper being able to be turned doing it this way: wet or dry board ... or lubed or non-lubed naked bullet ... dry or wet paper.

And don't stretch the wet paper before you start rolling - the downward pressure will do it for you. As for which way to dry the finished bullet - personal choice. Mine dry standing base down at the back of the rolling board - a scrap piece of Corian

[Marlin Junky]

docone31,

Range results:

7, 5 shot groups were fired with a muzzle velocity of 2200 fps from my 24" M70 in 30-06. Castings were BHN 10.5.

Average group size: 3.5"
Smallest group: 2.438"
Largest group: 5.5" :(
Next Largest group: 4.24"

Final sizing looked to be just under .3100" as measured with a 1" micrometer.

Yes, the patching board is a pain in the butt; however, it sounded good in theory (ala Paul Matthews) and I had a nice piece of 3/4" plywood on hand. Can you post a picture of this roller you speak of?

Couple observations from today:

The bolt on my '06 closed with varying pressure on several rounds which was probably the result of not having the leading edge of the patch exactly in the same place for each round. A couple "easy-closers" only went 2140 to 2160 over the chronograph while the rounds requiring more force to close the bolt went 2220 or a bit higher.

Also, I cleaned my barrel at the end of the day and noticed a lot of dust when I pulled the patch out of the muzzle. BTW, the largest group was the first one of the day and was shot with the rounds I used to determine what the COL should be by seating at different depths and chambering them in the rifle last night. The COL on these five rounds went from 3.01" to 3.085" (IIRC) so it may not be fair to include the results of this string in the overall results. Without the worst group the results are as follows:

Smallest group: 2.438"
Largest group: 4.25"
Average of 6, 5 shot groups: 3.20"

All shooting done at 100 yards.

MJ

[docone31]

Marlin, not bad for a start. Especially when you were not sure of your loads.
http://www.oneshopzone.com/rolling-machine/index.html
I have been loading 50gns of Surplus 4895 behind the Lee 180gn boolitt.
In time, you will get great at the board. I never tried it.
I also use notebook paper/printer paper.
Keep pluggin away. My first patches were as lousey as my castings.
Looks good to me.

[Marlin Junky]

I don't dry the board between patches. I initially lay the saturated patch on the surface well above where I want it, and drag it into position. The water makes it adhere to the board like steel to a magnet.

I didn't find that to be consistently true. Perhaps my board it too slick. I finished it with Urethane and rubbed it with 2000 grit paper. In my limited experience, there's a fine line between the right amount of water to hold the patch in place while still being able to adjust it and having the patch slide all over the place.


When the patch is lined up with the marks, it won't move around while I fiddle with the bullet position, and get the pointy patch tip in place on the ogive, to begin the roll.

I watch closely as the pointy tip goes over the bullet and matches up with the leading edge of the patch. After that my hand obscures the front edge of the patch, so I just watch the rear end to make sure that edge of the paper matches exactly.

Some guys will roll the patch on while pulling back on the bullet, in order to put some stretch in the paper...to get a tight patch.
I pre-stretch the patch with a couple of passes with a plastic roller...before laying the bullet on.


I don't do tails, so when the whole patch is on...I continue the rolling motion while raising the bullet's nose. That starts the crease on the base.
After one full revolution I just keep turning the bullet, but don't need it to continue to roll up the board. The water acts as a lubricant, so the paper doesn't 'drag' on the board, and by the time I have turned the bullet twice more while raising the nose, the base is flat on the board...and the base wrap is flat to the base.

I need video :confused:


The water lubricant and a smooth board allow all of this to occur without tearing the wet paper.

I lift the bullet, and set it on the drying surface with a slight twist to make sure the base covering snuggles down flat in it's creases.

At room temperature, I find the patches dry in two or three hours.

CM

[montana_charlie]

Can you post a picture of this roller you speak of?
The very one I use...
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=184

I need video :confused:
Ain't gonna happen as I don't have video capability.

CM

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks for all the help/encouragement.

MC, I was just kidding about the video but I do need to work on my technique.

One more question and a couple more observations for now:

I can purchase 100% cotton tracing paper at the local Aaron Bros. art supply store in large rolls and was wondering about its feasibility. Seems like it may be easier to apply consistently but I was wondering if the patch would come off the bullet properly when exiting the muzzle. I can't remember how much the stuff cost 'cause when I saw it, I wasn't that interested in 100% cotton because of Matthews' comments.

BTW, my rounds were loaded with a half sheet of 1-ply TP and I couldn't find any traces of my patches downrange. I did notice some half rings of patch clinging the the case mouths a couple times though... I didn't think that was a good sign.

Thanks again docone31 and MC...

MJ

[docone31]

MJ, I have learned more from participating in threads like this than I can describe!
Personally, I believe I should be giving credit to you!
An history,
I silently went and purchased some molds, a pot, got some wheel weights and proceeded to embarass the dickens out of myself!
I took me a while to find this forum. I had read that my .303 British adapted readily to paper patching.
I had read about everything on rifles, casting, paper patching, etc... Why I never slugged my barrel I have no clue, but I was kinda going by process of elimination.
One day, while surfing, Beemer had stated he patched the .30cals, and .303 British.
Well, I joined the forum, and stuck my nose out. He paper patches the smaller calibers. I had not met Pdawg yet, and he gave me the start point. He also rolls by hand. I could never roll a cigarette and always used a roller. For years. The shopkeep next door has an head shop, so I asked him if he has rollers. I got 10. Sometimes he is with us, sometimes he is somewhere else.....
Beemer told me about Acadamie Meade Traceing paper. He had good results with it. I asked my student during one of her classes if she could go and pick me up some from WalMart. she did.
I got a paper cutter, cut 1" strips with the grain running with the cut. Found a piece of broken venetian blind our Bengals broke off our curtains. Made a template. One for two wraps, one for three, one for four! By the by, the most accurate loads were with four wraps of Meade Traceing paper!
It was reading folks like you discovering paper patching, and their journey, and me trying some things, like undersized firelapping. Boy, did that work! Cleaned the hammer marks from my bore without makeing the bore larger.
It is folks like you, MC, Pdawg, Beemer, and on, and on, not to forget Kragman!
I have learned a real lot, from messing up, and getting advise, and applying it.
When ever someone wants to get their feet wet paper patching, I know, if I reply, big wigs also pipe in. Right out of the gate, there are two schools in wrapping.
With the .30s, six the board, and get a wrapper. With the big boys, the board looks like it works and works well.
MJ, it has been an honour.

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks docone31,

It, as you say in the last sentence of your post above, is not over... in fact it has just begun. :-D What are your feelings about 100% cotton? Is it worth the price? I can't remember how much the 100% cotton tracing paper (in several size rolls) cost at Arron Bros., but everyone says 100% cotton is more money than 25% cotton. I think the tracing paper I'm using now has zero percent cotton. I seem to remember Matthews saying that the 100% stuff is less likely to leave the bullet than the 25% stuff; however, I can't find 25% cotton unless I take a long drive to the Kelly Paper store and all they have is writing grade stuff in 8.5x11" sheets which is expensive and .004+" thick... in other words, paper that print shops run letterhead, etc. on.

MJ

[docone31]

Marlin, honestly, I think you are makeing too much of it.
I use either lined notebook paper, or unlined printer paper. I got a ream for 2$ at a dollar store. Lasts a long time.
What you are trying to do here is make a jacket that seperates upon exiting the muzzle.
The grocery store might have a package of lined notebook paper.
Most of all, I would work on the patches being real tight and effortless to wrap. It doesn't matter whether you do it in pureist form, or my rolling machine technique. The main thing we want to do is get you wrapping and printing on the target!
Now, for the pure esoterics of it all. I am there also. It occupies my mind when I am not in the shop. Especially with the "junkers" I shoot it with. 1" at 100yds is what paper is all about to me. Especially with those rifles.
I have found, the cheapo paper works great in my rifles.

[windrider919]

I dilute the Rooster lube using 25% lube n 75% water. I wet my patch and lay it on my board which is a piece of 3/8 PVC plastic. Holding the bullet end down I rub the patch flat with a finger, this stretches it slightly. I then roll the patch on the bullet and do not roll a tail either. As the patch is finished rolling I am using the edge of the palm of my hand. I just let this move over the base of the bullet and start folding the patch onto the base. After all the pleats are formed I then stand the bullet up on it's base on the drying board and push down slightly to finish flattening it.

I do not add any other lube to the patch after drying or loading. I tried that and got larger groups and fliers. Testing patches by pealing I found the second lube was gluing the PP to the bullet. Preventing clean release of the patch on shooting. The same thing happened when using too much Rooster lube in wetting the patch. which is what lead to the diluted solution. Better accuracy with Rooster but only sparingly.

Also, adding lube to the patch after it dried loosened the patch and made it soft and even uncurl with some lubes

[Marlin Junky]

I didn't realize Rooster Lube was soluble in water... someone gave me a bottle of this stuff a few months ago who tried it on 22LR ammo.

Does the Rooster lube stay dissolved in water for long periods of time or does it need to be stirred a few times during a patching session to keep it in solution?

MJ

[windrider919]

The Rooster lube stays soluble in water. It dries to a hard(ish) water proof wax. It was originally developed as a tumble lube but some shooters tried it on patches and found good results. I personally have not used it for anything other than patches. In full strength the patches were so tough they would survive being feed through the bolt action magazine into the chamber. But full strength 'glued' the patch to the bullet and sometimes caused fliers. I recovered one flier out of the backstop and a fragment of the patch was still on the bullet. Overall accuracy had improved so I experimented with diluted Rooster until I had just enough to glue the patch layers together but not stick to the bullet. That was at about 1/3 Rooster, However, I went down to 1/4 strength Rooster just to be sure I did not have the sticking problem any more. My groups stayed tight and no fliers. My patches do not unrap even when carried for hours in a pocket.

[Lead pot]

I'm most likely going to get some flag saying this.
Why do you guys use so much hokus-pokus and black magic voodoo patching bullets.
Patching a bullet then running them through a sizer???why??
If you patch and run it through the sizer this will happen.
The lead will flow to the diameter of the die, this is ok.
The paper will not change size it will stay the same except it might tear or get wrinkled up. now the bullet is loose under the patch and accuracy goes to hell!
Putting all this lube and wax on the patch will do nothing but make the patch stay with the bullet and most likely start coming off in bits when the rotation and wind starts tearing it off before it reaches the target. Accuracy goes th hell!
If your serious patching a bullet get a unpatched bullet the right diameter and patch it to bore or groove diameter that will work for the chamber you have.
If you feel that you need some lube on the patched bullet, and that is ok, it will work, use a little bullet lube on your fingers and just lightly rub a little on the patched bullet but not in between the patch layers. You don't want the patch to stick.
If you want a good accurate PP bullet find the paper that is available. .002 thick for me is ideal for my unpatched diameter bullet I want to use.
Don't make a PP bullet so difficult with all this voodoo, it's not necessary.
Some of the posting I see here form some that say do it this way I don't think they have an inkling what a PP bullet is not alone ever shot one.
And remember if you have a .308 diameter grooved rifle and your patched bullet is .311 it will raise a pressure spike lust like a copper jacket bullet will. and you will get the same aftermath

[docone31]

I do not want to start an argument here, and as soon as I can, I plan on posting photos,
However, my castings are high zinc content.
I am not at all sure the prime casting sizes all that much when I size the paper patch.
I do indeed understand what you are saying. However, I am not sure that with my .303 British especially, it has a negative effect. I am fairly positive that when I size, I more smooth the paper into the lands, and reduce the paper on the outer lands. I have noticed accuracy differences with sized, and unsized in the same rifle with the same load.
My groove slugs at .312, when I wrap unsized to .314 useing thinner paper, it is not as accurate as wrapping to .317, then sizing to .314. This is with another wrap of the paper makeing three wraps.
It does seem to "iron" on the patch, and the patch does seem to be "harder". All wraps are with a cigarette roller so there is consistancy there.
The cases do not show pressure signs other than less carbon on the neck with the sized patches than unsized. To be honest, I get more reloads from .303 British brass than I have heard likely. Same with my .30cals.
If someone can post photos, I can borrow a camera and do a photo shoot. I have wanted to do this anyway. I do not want to be a questionable voice from nowhere.
My journey into paper patching for my smaller calibers has been an exciting joy! I love nothing more than turning a discard, used to be old wheel weights, into an accurate load.
It helped me break through from purchaseing expensive commercial bullets, into a casting adventure. A picture is indeed worth a thousand words.
If someone can post them, I will e-mail attachments.
Talk is cheap anyway.

[jaydee1445]

Snap your pics and I will post them or show you how.:drinks:

[docone31]

I will take you up on that. I have wanted to for a long time.
I am a 'puter BOZO.

[windrider919]

i do agree with some of what LeadPot said. I got into PP to simplify and lower cost. And that includes the time it cost to do all the various operations.

I do not want to size the bullet, and if I had to I probably would not shoot PP. As per lube, I tried various dry and lubed methods and found that for MY rifle I got better accuracy with lubing as I have described before. And the results prove it, you can cover most 5 shot groups at 100yds with a quarter and just see the edges of the holes around it. I did not get this accuracy with plain, dry patches which also came unraveled in 100% humidity and swelled up and jammed going into the chamber. I mainly tried lube to waterproof my patches. And yes, I have heard from at least a dozen people that I am doing it wrong. However, as we used to say in combat: "If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid."

The humidity problems made me wonder what the old plainsmen did. They did not have the wonderful watertight ammo containers we have today so how did they keep their PP intact? An acquaintance of mine collects cartridges and when I checked with him he showed me some original, still in the box 45-90 rounds. Looking at them non-destructively since he would have killed me if I had taken a thumbnail to them I could see no sign of lube or grease. One thing I noticed right off is that these bullets are wrapped square, not with a trapezoidal shape. But one thing I noticed is that the overlap seam is so tight it takes careful looking to see it. It appears to me that there IS 'something' gluing the paper together. It would probably take sending one to a lab and having it analyzed to see what is mixed in with the paper fibers which I could never afford but I really believe that these patches are not just plain paper and water!

I tried lots of different papers and used plain water with each. Nothing stuck like the old patches have. I also tried things like starch, Elmers, egg white, etc mixed in with the water and several did give tight long lasting patches but I kept experimenting for accuracy. As I said before: I my rifle, no dry patch gave as good accuracy as the lubed patches. With the caveat that the greasy lubes did not work either. What worked for me was the drying waxes. Others may have different experiences and I will not say that anyone is doing anything wrong unless I have tried it and even then there might be some unknown variable that causes their system to work. I just use anything anyone else says as a place to start, not as Holy Cannon.

[Lead pot]

windriver.

I'm not saying that it's wrong lubing a bullet.
But I would not lube the patch so it comes in contact with the bullet under the patch and having the paper glued to the bullet.
When I carry the bullet in a belt I just put a little bullet lube on my thumb and fro finger and spin the case with the bullet seated and rub a little on the jacket to protect it from the elements while hunting.
I have a friend I hunt with he uses shellac and covers the paper out side of the case only and when he shoots I see the paper fly and that works for him.
I always say use what works, but know enough to change it if it dont.

[windrider919]

Yah, I had a problem with fliers that occasionally ruined a group when I started lubing PP. For example: 100% Rooster lube on patches sometimes glued the patch to a bullet. But 1/4 strength diluted in water did not glue the patch and I got fabulous accuracy. Lee Liquid Alox did not soak all the way through but did not have the accuracy either. Plain JPW either. On one thread it was described how the British armory's waterproofed their PP ammo by dipping and holding the bullet n patch in molten wax / tallow. I tried that but accuracy was abysmal. I guess for their standards that was OK but not for mine.

Again, I shoot smokeless and have found there to be significant differences between the 'common knowledge for BP' and what works for smokeless. Every time I post I have to distinguish that I am varying from the 'rules' because a basic ingredient is different. BUT, what counts is what works and I am slowly finding that out. It has been and continues to be a delightful process and I still have lots to learn. I have started to shoot only with a rifle rest because I can't humanly shoot any better. But by removing myself as a variable I test only my experiment and hopefully develop better and better materials and procedures. I have owned match rifles that never gave the accuracy that I am getting now, and never gave the satisfaction in the shooting experience either. We are blessed that we can communicate and share like you and I have here. Thanks for your thoughts, look forward to more.