best bullet design for a S&W 625

[revolver junkie]

does anyone have an opion on the best design for a bullet that would permit fast reloads from moon clips?
i have a 2cav lee 200gr semiwadcutter it works ok but i was wondering there was anything better out there. im lookin at a lee 6cav to crank em out and iv had exp with them.

i was looking at the 230 TC but there out of stock at midwayusa

any input would be much appreciated

[dubber123]

The Lee 228 1R loads pretty fast in my 625. I do have a healthy bevel on the rear of my chambers. You pretty much throw it in the general direction, and it's in.

[revolver junkie]

rats its out of stock at midway to
i could get a 2 cav but im looking to up production sitting for 3 hours runing 2 dirrent moulds one for 38's and one for 45's is a little much i had a 6 cav 9mm mould man i could turn out some lead ya actuall all the 6 cavs for lee are out

[Dale53]

I would just get the Lee 230 gr TC and just plan on waiting about six weeks. Until this push is over (should be in a few months) we'll just have to plan on waiting for what ever we want.

I was talking to my dealer friend, today. He tried to order 24 different guns today from two or three major distributors, and NOT ONE GUN was in stock!
These are MAJOR distributors. That is the state of affairs today in guns, reloading & casting tools, and components.

I've got a new revolver ordered from the sole distributor and they cannot even tell me approximately when. So, I order and wait patiently. I'm not the patient type but there is absolutely NO percentage in getting myself worked up (it's not like it's my only piece[smilie=1:). In the meantime, I'll console myself with my "others".
Dale53

[revolver junkie]

well i wonder about coughing up the extra 13 bucks and ordering directly from lee

[Lloyd Smale]

i shoot round flats, swcs and round nosed bullets in them. Swcs are usually the most accurate but the hardest to load. If you champer your cylinder holes it helps alot. Many arent willing to put a grinder to there gun though. One trick with a 625 that ive found about universal with any cast bullet is to cast hard. the harder the better. Smiths tend to have shallow rifling and dont do good with soft bullets. It also tends to help when i use a powder that is a midrange powder like 231 aa5, aa2 rather then the usuall go to powder for my 1911s which is bullseye. Ive also found in the few 625s ive owned that they tend to prefer heavier bullets. If you really want to see one shoot load some 255 swcs designed for the 45 colt in them and even bettter do it in 45 auto rim brass. Load them with about 6 grains of unique and ill about gurantee that even the most finiky 625 will shoot.

[beagle]

I know you guys are stuck on Lee moulds but RCBS makes a darn nice 45-230-CM that shoots accurately and loads really nice in a SA Ruger convertible, my old M25 in 1/3 moon clips and also feeds well in a M1911.

Weighs 229 grains from WW alloy. One of my favoite .45 bullets./beagle

[AnthonyB]

That RCBS 45-230CM is my favorite 45 bullet as well. Tony

[earplug]

I had poor results with a Lee 230 two radius TL boolit. The shoulder would hang, and it cast undersize for my guns.
I'm waiting on a Lee 230 round nose.
The Lee 200 grain SWC works ok for for a reload if you have a good chamfer. but its not as good as a round nose. I plan on using it for steel competition and Bullseye. Anything such with a flat nose and a shouder will slow a reload.
I'm using a old Lyman 225 two cavity round nose that works very well on reloads. I use it on USPSA shoots and it fine out of my 5 inch 625-8. I lube with Rooster Jacket with all the above Boolits.

[anachronism]

I no longer have one, but I used Lyman 454190 a lot in mine. This is a 250 gr 45 round flatpoint, originally designed for the 45 Colt

[Dale53]

Lloyd Smale;
>>>Smiths tend to have shallow rifling and dont do good with soft bullets.<<<

Not to dispute your findings, Lloyd, but my experience has been a bit different. When I got my 625's (a 625-6 with 5" barrel and a 625-8 JM Special with 4" barrel) I loaded up some H&G #130's and Saeco #68 (both SWC of 195 grs weight) and they shot VERY well. Since, I have put probably 3000 rounds through my revolvers. My alloy is WW's+2% tin and I get under 1" at 25 yards off a rest. I have read the information elsewhere about using very hard alloys but both of my revolvers seem to work with my "standard" alloy. My Smith's have shallow rifling with narrow lands (not at all like the Smith typical five groove wide lands) but seem to do just fine.

I get NO leading at all, either. I have not done any bullet recovery experiments, just accept the obvious good accuracy (my standard for a good revolver is "under 1" at 25 yards") and shoot. I only clean my guns when they get too dirty for my "tender sensibilities"[smilie=1: - that is, about every 300-500 rounds. I size .452" and have been shooting up my partial cans of a wide variety of powder, all with excellent results. So far, I have used Red Dot, Bullseye, currently using 5066, Unique, and 7625. ALL have given stellar results. These are the least finicky revolvers I have owned. I have used both NRA Alox/Beeswax 50/50 and Lars White Label Carnauba Red lube.

Sorry about high jacking the thread, it's a bit off topic (maybe).

I AM glad to hear about your experience with heavier bullets. I have just loaded up some 454424's ahead of 6.2 Unque and will try them if our "less than satisfactory" weather ever improves (it was 5 degrees this morning:confused:). I'll continue to use my SWC's for general use (I no longer compete in action stuff so I mostly shoot Bullseye) but want to end up with a good heavy bullet load, also.

Dale53

[coat]

I have even got a lyman 255 swc to shoot out of my 625. It well shoot 200 swc to 230 cast like a house on fire. i do lke 230cm rcbs to. But I have problem with R-p auto rim brass spliting after a about 2 loads with WST. What is sad about this is have a lot of R-p auto rim brass. I am going back to acp brass this year:castmine:

[Dale53]

coat;
The Starline Auto Rim brass is very good. I have mostly used .45 ACP in mine with absolutely NO problems, and since I have started to using Starline Auto Rims, no problems, either. I am not a fan of Remington .45 brass in either ACP OR Auto Rim.

FWIW
Dale53

[Lloyd Smale]

keep in mind dale that your alloy is on the harder side of normal compared to what alot of guys use at those velocitys in a acp. Ww alloys is to me about the starting point for accuracy in them. Harder seems better but any softer and accuracy goes south for me.
Lloyd Smale;
>>>Smiths tend to have shallow rifling and dont do good with soft bullets.<<<

Not to dispute your findings, Lloyd, but my experience has been a bit different. When I got my 625's (a 625-6 with 5" barrel and a 625-8 JM Special with 4" barrel) I loaded up some H&G #130's and Saeco #68 (both SWC of 195 grs weight) and they shot VERY well. Since, I have put probably 3000 rounds through my revolvers. My alloy is WW's+2% tin and I get under 1" at 25 yards off a rest. I have read the information elsewhere about using very hard alloys but both of my revolvers seem to work with my "standard" alloy. My Smith's have shallow rifling with narrow lands (not at all like the Smith typical five groove wide lands) but seem to do just fine.

I get NO leading at all, either. I have not done any bullet recovery experiments, just accept the obvious good accuracy (my standard for a good revolver is "under 1" at 25 yards") and shoot. I only clean my guns when they get too dirty for my "tender sensibilities"[smilie=1: - that is, about every 300-500 rounds. I size .452" and have been shooting up my partial cans of a wide variety of powder, all with excellent results. So far, I have used Red Dot, Bullseye, currently using 5066, Unique, and 7625. ALL have given stellar results. These are the least finicky revolvers I have owned. I have used both NRA Alox/Beeswax 50/50 and Lars White Label Carnauba Red lube.

Sorry about high jacking the thread, it's a bit off topic (maybe).

I AM glad to hear about your experience with heavier bullets. I have just loaded up some 454424's ahead of 6.2 Unque and will try them if our "less than satisfactory" weather ever improves (it was 5 degrees this morning:confused:). I'll continue to use my SWC's for general use (I no longer compete in action stuff so I mostly shoot Bullseye) but want to end up with a good heavy bullet load, also.

Dale53

[revolver junkie]

thanks for all the info fellas i suspected that either the 230 TC or the rnd nose would do best
i'm casting my 200 semis out of ww and am getting a little leading at the forcing cone but nowwhere else so those might be a bit to hard
i currently am using 5.1 grns of unique but just loaded a batch with blue dot my main problem thus far has been alot of powder ash

[Dale53]

Lloyd;
I am ALWAYS interested in what you have to say. When I started out Linotype was readily available for small change, so my mind is set that hard means 22 Brinell. I consider ww's+2% tin as my "normal" these days. I guess we should really specify what we mean when we say hard and soft, etc. I have started trying to be more specific when I discuss such things but sometimes I don't (I can claim "old man's disease"[smilie=1:).

I DO feel better tho' as like I said above I DO respect your informed opinions.

Dale53

[sargenv]

AFAIK all of the top shooters who use a 625 opt for a Round nosed design of some type. Some of them load to major power factor others to minor.. depending on which games they like to play and which load they favor. If it were me, Likely would be something RN and in the 200 gr range but then I'm kind of cheap ;) Jerry Miculek has his chambers rounded out for smooth insertion of moons at speed. He can practically throw a moon at the cylinder and have it drop in.

[OBXPilgrim]

does anyone have an opinion on the best design for a bullet that would permit fast reloads from moon clips?

any input would be much appreciated

What I found with my 625 is that WW or slightly harder is better also, and mine like heavier slugs as well.

But as far as QUICK reloads, the Lee 255 RF is very hard to beat. I've loaded them in Auto Rim brass with the slug seated showing the crimp above the end of the cartridge case, but that wasn't as fast as seating them and slightly roll crimping the end of the case into the crimp groove.

With no "edge" of the cartridge case external to the tangent of the bullet diameter, they pretty much fly into the chamber. You have to seat them pretty deep like this - deeper than I like, so I backed off the powder charge quite a bit.

What I have not tried, and feel I need to, is to load this boolit into ACP brass working up to the same power level as the AR load - and roll crimping the case mouth into the crimp groove. I'd load these into full moon clips as soon as loading them to make sure they don't find their way into a 1911. They should headspace fine with the full moon clips - after all, the Colt 1917s weren't cut with chamber mouths (at least the few I've looked at - and heard about). ACPs headspace without the clip in my 625 & shoot fine, but I'm sure the clips will work for headspace.

The Lee 255 RF weighs 240gr from my mold (with lube) - so it's not that much of a heavier slug. The 200gr Lee RF is a similar design, but it has a much wider meplat that might not work as good - too much chance to hit the flat nose into the back of the cylinder.

I haven't chrono'd my load yet, but it's very accurate - shootin' bud and I were able to nail a 5" plate on a zip line trolley (moving target) more than a few times at 20 yards with not much problem.

I you try this slug that deep, be sure to back off you load - and keep them away from the 1911s.

[Lloyd Smale]

Mostly because there shooting action sports that put more of a requirement on speed of reloading then tack driving accuracy. For the most part a gun that will shoot 3-4 inch groups is good enough for most types of competitions a 625 is used for.
AFAIK all of the top shooters who use a 625 opt for a Round nosed design of some type. Some of them load to major power factor others to minor.. depending on which games they like to play and which load they favor. If it were me, Likely would be something RN and in the 200 gr range but then I'm kind of cheap ;) Jerry Miculek has his chambers rounded out for smooth insertion of moons at speed. He can practically throw a moon at the cylinder and have it drop in.

[sargenv]

does anyone have an opion on the best design for a bullet that would permit fast reloads from moon clips?

That was the reason I suggested RN bullets... and the main reason I'm trying to find it's equivalent in the 610. So far everything I've found is a RNFP and that's just not good enough for me. Wadcutters or semi wadcutters, even hollow points might be inherently more accurate, but in the action games with a revo, speed and accuracy are king with an emphasis on speed reloading the higher up you get. I may have to get a 625 to make it past A class or master my 627 better (or just practice like heck with my 610).

[Dale53]

OBXPilgrim;
Whether using the S&W or Colt 1917's, the clips are standard for headspace control. With the Colt's that was the ONLY option. S&W headspaced on the mouth of the case if loaded without the clips and worked well as did some of the earlier 25's and 625's. However, the later S&W guns do NOT headspace on the mouths of the case. My two do not. I couldn't care less and I have NO intention of shooting ACP's without the clips (whether steel or RIMZ) but will shoot my Auto Rim cases if I don't need the clips. I have enough options. Some are upset about the lack of case mouth headspace control, but not me.

What I AM enamored with is I can shoot REALLY good scores (for me) easier with these than most any revolver out there. They are extremely accurate and seem to digest most anything that I put in them.

My .32's, on the other hand, while accurate are pretty dern particular. I like them all, but the 625's just "sing my song"...:mrgreen:

Dale53

[imashooter2]

The Lee 452-228-1R is what I use.





<==============

[35remington]

Dale, with lighter weight bullets my 625 does fine with bullets made of wheelweights, especially if they have a big forward band (HG 68) and/or less weight (180, 190, 200 et. al). The forward band grabs; the lighter bullet means less momentum to "carry over" the rifling rather than turn with it. (Not at highest possible velocities, though!).

Recovery of ~190 grain target SWC's of wheelweights bears this out. Little skidding; just a wide spot at rifling engagement on the front band, then good imprints thereafter. Accuracy is very good.

Heavy bullets of soft alloys like wheelweights are a disaster. More momentum, some have weak bands, skidding aplenty, to the point the rifling marks are unrecognizable. The whole surface of the bullet is gouged to near bore size. Accuracy sucks.

Hard's the way to go with those bullets for me.

[Lloyd Smale]

i went through the same thing. I had a 646 and a 610 at one time. the only mold i ever found listed for a round nosed 401 is a magma round nosed bevel base. I settled for the most part shooting rcbs 180 round flats and champering the cylinder holes. Using .40 sw brass in your 610 will make it easier to load too.
That was the reason I suggested RN bullets... and the main reason I'm trying to find it's equivalent in the 610. So far everything I've found is a RNFP and that's just not good enough for me. Wadcutters or semi wadcutters, even hollow points might be inherently more accurate, but in the action games with a revo, speed and accuracy are king with an emphasis on speed reloading the higher up you get. I may have to get a 625 to make it past A class or master my 627 better (or just practice like heck with my 610).

[OBXPilgrim]

However, the later S&W guns do NOT headspace on the mouths of the case. Dale53

New one on me- thanks for the info.

Any idea when they stopped cutting a chamber mouth?

My 625 is a 625-3 "45 Cal Model of 1989"

[earplug]

I must have three strange S&W 625-8's that function fine without moon clips and 45 ACP brass. I do have to pick the brass out with my fingernails.
I use them for Bullseye, Steel matches and USPSA.

Originally Posted by Dale53
However, the later S&W guns do NOT headspace on the mouths of the case. Dale53

[revolver junkie]

well i can attest that my 625 shoots pretty tight with the 200 smi's hitting an 8"x12" plate at 50yrds is pretty comon with my plinkin ammo which i dont weight sort just throw the wrinkled and under filled ones back in the bucket and keep sizing, if i remeber correctly they cast out at just under 190grns and i only load practice ammo to about 800fps or pretty close to major factor.

any sugestions on the powder ash problem. at one point there was enough that got under the ejector i kept the ciylinder from closing. i keep an eye on it now but i wish i could shoot for an entire range session without worring about it

btw i use only acp brass with moon clips they all go in as one and come out as one :mrgreen:

now i gotta go work on my michuleck speed reload [smilie=w: :holysheep

RJ

[Dale53]

The question of the 625 in it's various configurations and model numbers is covered VERY well by Brian Pearce in the #254 Handloader and followed up by Brian's column in #257 with comments by none other than Tommy Campbell, long time employee and Professional Shooter of S&W. It has been my pleasure to talk to Tommy in the past, and I will assure you, he is the "real deal".

Some S&W Model 25's and 625's headspace on the case mouth and some, mostly later ones, do not. Neither my 625-6 Model of 1889 nor my 625-8 headspaces on the case mouth. Apparently some of the new Thunder Ranch Specials do and some don't.

I am extremely happy with mine because they shoot so well (like NRA Bullseye "X" ring and better).

My suggestion if you want to read the "straight skinny" on this to take a look at the previously mentioned Handloader Magazines.

Dale53

[Dale53]

revolver junky;
There is a rather easy solution to powder debis getting under the extractor star. The debris is INSIDE the cases. If you ALWAYS hold the revolver cylinder vertical when you eject the cases, the debris STAYS inside the cases as they are ejected. It takes a bit of work to make that action automatic but it totally solves the problem (and that can be a problem with ANY revolver).

Dale53

[Lloyd Smale]

thats good advice Dale. I was told that the first day i showed up on a shooting line with a smith.
revolver junky;
There is a rather easy solution to powder debis getting under the extractor star. The debris is INSIDE the cases. If you ALWAYS hold the revolver cylinder vertical when you eject the cases, the debris STAYS inside the cases as they are ejected. It takes a bit of work to make that action automatic but it totally solves the problem (and that can be a problem with ANY revolver).

Dale53

[revolver junkie]

thanks dale it sort of occured to me that that might be the anwser and after shooting today it does seem to help

[Dale53]

revolver junkie;
"We are but here to serve.":drinks:

Dale53

[Dew]

Most interesting thread... I've also found that my 625 is very accurate. I've used both of the LEE moulds with the 1 and 2 radius and have fine accuracy with them.
However, I've come to use a Lyman dbl cavity mould that cast at about 178 grains and is a semi-wadcutter and really makes shooting the gun a lot of fun. It will "out shoot" my ability! I"ve used a number of powders and all have been good and that includes powders as old as Pistol #5 and 5066. If I had to stick with one powder that would be WW 231. I've shot a lot of 700X and Bullseye also.

My gun headspaces on the mouth although I use mostly the Autorim brass. But I am not above the ACP and pulling it out with my fingernails.

In short, I don't think you can find a better shooting handgun accuracy wise and it is just plain fun to have.