9mm? Which sizer die have you used?

[Texasflyboy]

I am having a devil of a time getting good cast bullet accuracy out of a 9mm load I am trying to perfect. Click Here for Link to that Thread (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=4662)

This is the Nobel Sport/Vectan AO powder + Hensley & Gibbs #115 9mm mold. I am still getting keyholes at 950fps. It's not 100% keyholes, but rather about ~30%~ of the time. I decided to fill a 55 gallon drum with water and capture some projectiles with the 4.0 grain load.

Here are the photos of those captured bullets:

http://users2.ev1.net/~eastus1/a/115_1.jpg

As I hope everyone can see, there is barely any rifling engraving on these projectiles. I am beginning to suspect that I may need to up the sizing diameter to either .357 or .358.

My question is: Can I use a .358 die or is that too large? I do not have a STAR sizing die in .357, but I do have one in .358. I intend to retry all the H&G #115 loads starting with 3.7 grains all the way up to 5.0 grains with the bullets sized larger.

Any thoughts?

[454PB]

Have you slugged the barrel? If it were me, I'd size to fit the barrel. That is assuming that a boolit as large as .357 to .358 will allow the cartridge to chamber. Are the "as cast" boolits big enough to size .358....if so it surprises me.

Load up a dummy round with your .358 sized boolits and see if it will feed.

[45 2.1]

I size a little over 0.357", specifically 0.3574". Try your 0.358" die to see if you have chambering problems. Somewhere between 0.357" and 0.358" you will find happiness. WW 231 is an excellent powder for the 9mm also.

[Dale53]

You may have a serious problem here. Your picture is quite helpful in diagnozing your problem and I believe that you have the answer - the bullets are too small. This problem is common to many .380's (I have no experience with 9mm as I am a .45 ACP man) :-) (Please be nice and do not ask why I bother with a .380 if a 9mm is not enough gun :razz: ).

Many .380's chambers will not allow a person to chamber a cast bullet that is big enough to work well. Jacketed bullets, being MUCH stronger, will shoot acceptably in a barrel that is entirely too large for the cast bullets being used.

So, the best you will be able to do, is as others here have suggested. Use the largest bullet that you can chamber and feed. You may be able to have your cake and eat it too (if the chamber is large enough to chamber a proper size [for the barrel] cast bullet).

Good luck!
Dale53

[Buckshot]

...............Thanks for the photos. I like pictures 8). Yup, slug that barrel. Rule #1 for cast: it's gotta seal so it hast'a be at least groove dia. For my Witness in 38 Super I size to .357".

"Can I use a .358 die or is that too large?"

That .358" die might not size to .358". Also, the more highly alloyed the slugs are, the more springback they'll have. If the die IS .358" a hard slug may come out .3586" or so. Who knows, the .358" die may also size a bit small?

When you slug the barrel to find the true groove diameter remember you have the physical limitations of the chamber to consider, so you might not be able to size as large as you'd like. Might not be a bad idea to upset a slug and push it into the chamber, right up to the rifling. Mike that too. That will be the max OD combination for boolit and brass the chamber will accomodate.

9mm brass ranges all over the place on casemouth thickness so you could maybe size to what you want and then use only certain brands of brass.

In the 38 Super it's pretty simple as there are only a couple makers of brass. The most common for it are R-P, W-W, and PMC. I've never found enough PMC to bother using it. I can't remember at the moment to say which is which, but the R-P and W-W are widely different in case thickness at the mouth.

.....................Buckshot

[NVcurmudgeon]

Also, check what actual sized diameter is. Not only do different alloys size different diameters in the same die, the dies don't always size to the diameter marked on them. I have both Lyman .356 and .357 dies, and in my alloy they both size .3565," so I use the one that gives the smoothest finish.

[kciH]

Most 9mm pistols have quite generous barrel and chamber dimensions, in the name of reliability. I learned this when I had a match barrel with a match chamber fitted to a 1911 GM that I've been shooting for some years. After discovering that I had chambering problems with many of the commercial cast bullets I had been using, can hardly justify casting for a 9mm, I slugged my other 9mm pistols and discoved that there would be little problem chambering .357-358 bullets in them, this was coupled with a quest for heavy bullets in the 9, 140-150grs as a result of 9mm pin shooting that left pins on the table...bullets usually made for a .357 Magnum had no problems chambering in 9mm barrels. The accuracy difference between the match barrel and standard issue Colt barrel was staggering, night and day, but there where several other improvements made to the pistol at the same time so it did not stand out as starkly as it should have, ESPECIALLY when shooting cast bullets. Leading became nearly non-existant with cast bullets...a far cry from what I had experienced prior. I did not notice it as much as I mainly shot the very plentiful and inexpensive bulk jacketed bullets.

I've since sold off my other 9's since none really shot very well, and I have little use for the rounds marginal effectiveness for self defense, and am very happy with the 1911 GM with a good barrel. I'm even getting ready to cast for the 9mm...if only I could find a good deal on a SAECO #383 140gr SWC 4-holer.

When you look at the chamber and barrel dimensions it is no real wonder how they can shoot +P+ ammo and not blow up, given the 9mm is a fairly high pressure cartridge to start with. Sure, pistol wear is increased with the high pressure "carbine ammo" but it seems it only accelerates wear and does not cause them to go KaBOOM...I think that is because most all of the pistols have greatly oversized barrels and chambers which allow for what would otherwise be overpressure ammo to cause problems with reliability. Another factor that supports this notion is that 9mm case capacity varies wildly between makers...but how often do you see real high pressure signs or problems with mixed lots of brass and max loads?

[pdgraham]

I've been fighting 9mm keyhole problems just like this..

I ended up using only one Mfg brass.. Win.. and cranking my Lee Factory Crimp Die back until the keyholing stopped.. I size to 356..

[9.3X62AL]

Chambers, throats, and grooves are all over the map in 9mm. My throats in both SIG-Sauers and the Ruger P-89C are .3565", +/- .0002", so life is pretty easy for me--size to .357", and in Taracorp alloy the sizer die is right on the money. In R-P brass, the cartridges feed well with boolits so sized. FWIW, R-P brass is slightly thinner than W-W, so if tight chambers rear their head you can try the R-P hulls to gain a little clearance. Most service-grade 9mm's have pretty wide chamber tolerances, though.

[454PB]

Just for S&G, I slugged the barrel on my Ruger P-89 today. It is a tight .355", by that I mean I could get .354 on a few points. I made the mistake of using a .359 slug, it took a lot of force to get it through. I've been shooting boolits sized .356 in it with good results, and so I had not slugged it before. Bad on me, I slug all of my revolvers, but never do self feeders unless they don't shoot well.

[hyoder]

You gotta slug the barrel.

I've worked with two Browning HP's and bothe had barrels with .3585 groove diameters. .358 was the minimum size die I could use and wound up using .359. Had to turn an oversized expander plug to keep from cutting or swaging the bullets in seating. This large of a barrel is apparently not unusual with the HP's

Don't over do the taper crimp.

These rounds would not begin to chamber in my wife's Glock. The Glock was a .355 with a tight chamber so I have to keep the reloads separated. If I forgot to reset the taper crimp die after loading for the Glock, I'd swag the boolits back down enough to keyhole in the HP.

[Texasflyboy]

Well,

I slugged the barrel today and lo and behold, my Starrett Caliper read .3565 to .357 on the bullet I used. I used a bullet and tapped it into the chamber, which it went into quite easily (I had greased the barrel first). I then backed it out from the muzzle end. Measuring it again and again at the high points yielded .3565 to .357. I loaded up 100 rounds using my .358 sizing die and will report the range results after Wednesday.

Thanks to all for the tips and advice.

[beagle]

I've been wringing out a FN Hertal HP-SFS for the last month. I have about 1500 rounds through it at present.

On the lighter rounds like the 125s (356402 and 358242), I can get the best accuracy with bullets sized to .3575" (actual measured diameter not what's on the die. Same diameter with the 35840,133 grain.

Then, I started messing with some heavier bullets. A #73 H & G (144 grains) and a #929 Saeco (148 grains) seat so far out that I'm forced to size to .3565" (actual) to get them to chamber seated out a bit. Seating deeper kinda drives the pressure up. The HPs must have a real short throat.

Based on this, I'm getting a precision .3570" sizer reamed out and I think this is about right for all. We'll see.

About all of the bullets shoot well at up to 50 yards as far as plinking accuracy goes. The 125s and the 358480 do all right at 100 yards on man sized targets but the heavies go unstable part of the time. I can get the velocity up to stability standards at 100 yards but then I start auomatically depriming cases and that ain't good so I backed off and try and stay around 900 FPS with them./beagle

[beagle]

If the .358s chamber all right, they should shoot fine./beagle
Well,

I slugged the barrel today and lo and behold, my Starrett Caliper read .3565 to .357 on the bullet I used. I used a bullet and tapped it into the chamber, which it went into quite easily (I had greased the barrel first). I then backed it out from the muzzle end. Measuring it again and again at the high points yielded .3565 to .357. I loaded up 100 rounds using my .358 sizing die and will report the range results after Wednesday.

Thanks to all for the tips and advice.

[Texasflyboy]

Today I loaded up 150 9mm rounds of the Hensley & Gibbs #115 bullet, sized this time to .358".

This photo shows the original bullets sized at .356" with little or no rifling marks, and the new bullets sized at .358" with nice sharp rifling. Accuracy was outstanding. Nice one hole groups. Zero keyholes. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

Here are the bullets recovered from a water barrel:

http://users2.ev1.net/~eastus1/FN/115_6.jpg


Here is the target:

http://users2.ev1.net/~eastus1/FN/02012006.jpg

Thanks to all for the suggestions and tips to resolving this problem. I ran over 100 rounds through the high power without a single malfunction. Accuracy was excellent. I was able to hit 100% of the targets at our 30, 40, & 50 yard pistol range.

[454PB]

Good job. Just goes to show that we can't assume that what is accepted as standard barrel diameter is true.