45-70 405 gr cast boolit

[Craig M]

Ok. I am about to start loading my first 45-70 rounds this Saturday for some Sunday afternoon range time. I have on had some Remington brass, CCI primers, Hodgen 4198, and some 405 gr. cast boolits w/ gas checks. Anyone have any good warm loads for a Marlin GG?

Thanks,

Brazos

[missionary5155]

Good morning and WELCOME !
I am not real sure how much teeth rattling you are looking for. 4198 is not my powder of choice for bruising my bony little shoulder. But 38 grains should get to about 1450 fps. I would start at 36 grains and see how your rifle reacts.. 38 is all I ever loaded in my Winny 45-70.
I PREFER 3031 for HARD hitting loads. 50 grains is a nice starting area (1650+ fps) and keep adding 1 grain until you have had enough... I got to 55 grains in my Winny 1886 (Jap) 26 inch Octagon barrel and decided that was enough power with that nasty steel Curved shoulder seperator. Be checking for pressure signs. If you do not know how to check for case expansion at the web area do not exceed 54 grains of 3031.
But for my everyday shooting and carrying about load.. 1400 fps with a 400 grain soft cast 50/50 boolit and I have little fear of dealing with any critter on this planet. Buffs by the million were shot with less. Elephants.. Rhino.. Hippos.. have all been shot with less and died by the thousands. Even big mean snarly dogs hiding behind bushes seem to be no match for 400 grains of lead at 1400 fps and slowing down.
God Bless you.

[freedom475]

I would look here first. http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

But be warned not all data is equal and I have seen loads that shot just fine in an original Win 86 practically ruin a Marlin.... sprung the action and froze everything solid. Guy bent his lever trying to pry the action open. Many books will list the Marlin as being the stronger action. Not always true!

Make sure you DO NOT use the data for the "Modern Action"!!! This is for Ruger #1's. Yeah your GG is modern but it is NO Ruger #1.

Have you tried to see if a loaded round will cycle in your action? My GG won't handle a 400gr. laser cast FP..Just a little too long so they hang up and the carrier won't lift them. They go in the magazine just fine:-D and then I am totally jammed:mrgreen:
Something you might want to check before you get all your brass loaded with rounds that won't chamber.[smilie=1:

My GG is quite brutal with 400's at 1800 fps. The 400 will kill anything that walks at 1250fps and is a LOT more fun to shoot.

I much prefur Varget as I can get almost the same velocity with a lot less pressure. I also think 3031 is a fine 45-70 powder..., But I still have some of my original lbs. of 3031 and 4198 that I bought with my first 45-70 and I am on my 32lb. of Varget:Fire:.

Hope this helps and Have Fun.

[jack19512]

I am not real sure how much teeth rattling you are looking for. 4198 is not my powder of choice for bruising my bony little shoulder. But 38 grains should get to about 1450 fps. I would start at 36 grains and see how your rifle reacts.. 38 is all I ever loaded in my Winny 45-70.






I don't know if my manual is incorrect or what but it shows a start load of 27.0 gr. and a max load of 31.0 gr. of 4198 with a 405 gr. cast boolit. It shows a velocity of 1459 fps. with the 31.0 gr. 4198.

I personally like 4198 in my Marlin 1895 CB 45/70 and it shoots the 405 gr. boolit with 27.0 gr. of 4198 very accurately. I have not checked the velocity of this load yet but according to my manual it should be doing around 1289 fps. I personally have not found the need for a gas check on my 45/70 yet.

[freedom475]

I don't know if my manual is incorrect or what but it shows a start load of 27.0 gr. and a max load of 31.0 gr. of 4198 with a 405 gr. cast boolit. It shows a velocity of 1459 fps. with the 31.0 gr. 4198.

The data link that I posted shows a max for H4198 under "Lever Guns" at 50grs. and 2000fps with a 400Jacketed...:holysheep I would NOT do this to my Marlin or myself.
Maybe someone will post that they shoot this load all the time but it sounds like too much of a good thing to me.

[jack19512]

The data link that I posted shows a max for H4198 under "Lever Guns" at 50grs. and 2000fps with a 400Jacketed...:holysheep I would NOT do this to my Marlin or myself.








I shoot 27 grains of 4198 and do real well with that load but I don't think I would enjoy a 400 grain boolit at 2000 fps. I wonder why my book only went up to 31.0 grains? Maybe an old load? I may take my chronograph with me next time and start getting some velocities recorded. If the accuracy stays there I might go up some in my loads. Shouldn't a 405 grain boolit traveling at almost 1300 fps. be good for about anything here is the states?

[NuJudge]

I wonder why my book only went up to 31.0 grains? Maybe an old load?

Maybe Valor ends and discretion starts at 31.0 grains?

CDD

[Craig M]

The books are all over the place. Some books list 27min to 31max with 4198 and a 405gr bullet. Some manuals list 46min to 51max with a 405 gr bullet. It depends on if you are loading for trapdoor strength, marlin, or ruger 1. Even with the 3 power levels the books are different and in some cases quite a bit.

Brazos

[Le Loup Solitaire]

In my 86 Winchester using Lyman #457124, a 405 gr round nose, I load 45 grains of IMR 3031. It groups reasonably well altho I don't know what the MV is. It kicks just about as much as I want/need it to. With that curved buttplate I make sure that it is seated where it needs to be. Ask me how I know! I have gone as high as 53 grains of 3031. It was a loading that was given in the NRA reloading book some decades ago. It kicked like the devil. Probably great for hunting anything big; a 405 bullet that is traveling 1700+ fps will deliver something over 3000 foot pounds+ or a ton and one half. Thats a lot of smack and certainly adequate for whatever lives in the western hemisphere. 86's, Hi-walls and more modern rifles will handle this combination strength-wise; older rifles especially the trap-doors...won't at all, nor will shooter's shoulders that aren't used to it. orignal loadings for 45-70's were around 1200-1300fps. 2000fps with a 405 grain bullet is out in the decidedly no-fun zone+....one might as well get a 458 with a recoil pad and a super strong action and not risk ruining the gun you are shooting. As for 500 grain bullets...that's another adventure. Good shooting. LLS

[Craig M]

I was hoping to find something in the 1550-1650 range. I have no reason to push a 405gr bullett to 2000. I save that for the day I win the safari trip.

Brazos

[Craig M]

OK. I loaded 40 rouds starting at 36.5 gr to 41 gr to start out. After church tomorrow I will see what works best accuracy wise and go from there. Thanks for everyone input.

Brazos

[freedom475]

OK. I loaded 40 rouds starting at 36.5 gr to 41 gr to start out. After church tomorrow I will see what works best accuracy wise and go from there. Thanks for everyone input.

Brazos


Well???? so did you end up pulling all these cause they were too long??:mrgreen::mrgreen: Been there......

How did they shoot?....did they kick you hard enough or are you working your way to the 50gr. charge??:-D

[jh45gun]

I was hoping to find something in the 1550-1650 range. I have no reason to push a 405gr bullett to 2000. I save that for the day I win the safari trip.

Brazos

Good thinking no reason to push a 45/70 and the FPS your suggesting here is not that warm I try to keep my loads 1600 fps or under more like the 1500 on up to 1600 as I am shooting the Lee 405 grain .459 hollow based bullet. I shot a deer from the front shoulder at a angle and the bullet exited out the other side hind quarter and took out 6 inches of leg bone and still kept going yet you could eat the meat right up to the hole with that slow moving large lead bullet. I don't use my gun much for deer hunting as its too heavy. Its a Roller that weighs over 12 pounds with a 32 inch full octagon barrel.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

I've used the 405gr. boolit loaded to 1750-1800fps for years as my moose/elk load in my Marlin 45/70's , this is all the pleasure I can stand in a lite lever rifle, if I ever need to shoot Tranta Souris Rex , I will buy a 12 # 458 and go to 2000+ .IMHO[smilie=1:

The 405 in a 45/70 @ 1700-1800 fps will shoot end to end thru a bull elk or moose. This boolit @ 1500-1600fps is all you really need and is a lot nicer to shoot. Unless you really like pain.[smilie=1:
I like alliant reloader 7 better than 4198 , 3031 is ok . Enjoy working up your loads and enjoy the casting/shooting.:Fire:

[gon2shoot]

I use three different powders for my 45-70 loads, (the mild to wild thing).
4198 loaded at the lower end of the "lever action" data is my every day load, because I can shoot it every day [smilie=1:.

I have tried some of the hotter loads, and decided, I dont care how fast the boolit is traveling after it exits the animal. :wink:

[Psycho0124]

I've done 400 rounds at 48g of H4198 under a 405g cast (no gas check). You'll get a pressure ring about an eighth up the case length. Kinda like this but more pronounced:
http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:Zvzjj6ZjmhO4AM:http://i35.tinypic.com/357hpbk.jpg

Also you will notice some primer cratering about like this:
http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:r6T7La7lDUj2JM:http://i22.tinypic.com/flg2ys.jpg

Expect your shoulder to look something like this after about 100 rounds if you don't have a pad on your rifle:
http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:s63eNeXUYLfp-M:http://www.ultracycling.com/images/eddlemon_connecticut2.jpg

You'll get some leading from gas cutting. As you get more leading in the barrel, the pressure will rise further so be sure to check you casings every dozen or half-dozen shots for more pressure signs and listen for changes in the report. When things start to change, it's time to pack it in and head home.

I fire this in a Marlin 1895CB and consider it relatively safe (and far more accurate that you'd think!). Now if I could just find a T-Rex to try it out on!:twisted:

[Cheshire Dave]

Hey Craig M. I've used a light load of 39 grains of 3031 with a Lee PB 405 and got about 1400 and nice groups. Then I thought I needed more power and got a RCBS 405GC and use 50 gr. for 1800fps from the 22 inch barrel of my Marlin95. 1" groups at 50 from my standing bench( a ladder with a sand bag). I've heard you can get 2000 fps with h322 but haven't felt the need for more power. This load showed me the advantage of hard cast over Jacketed bullets. The 405 Rem. soft points made a 8 inch crater in the clay bank back stop the cast bullets couldn't be found ,I gave up digging after about 18 inches. Don't think the little Blacktail deer will stop them..

[Slow Elk 45/70]

OK, Craig the award for Warm Load in the marlin goes to Psyco!! Your the winner!
:-D
Thanks for the Pics Psyco, those should make most people think twice about
+18-1900fps in a lite rifle w/405 CB's or J's for that matter.
From the pressure rings and primer, you are right up there close to 39-40,000psi
IMHO[smilie=1:

I hurt just looking at your shoulder:twisted:

Have fun fellas, in your search for a warm load, just be careful ! Please.

[Psycho0124]

Hahaha.. Well, admittedly that pic was one I found on google image search. I didn't think to grab a pic of my bruise (mostly out of embarrassment from doing that to myself). My bruise was really about 10% more narrow and it completely healed up after a week or two.

What was really impressive was the way the building reacted when those were fired (I shoot at an indoor shooting range to get outta this Texas heat). The steel girders in the ceiling would hum for a few seconds after the report and I'm pretty sure I saw some dust rattle loose from some of the joints. Good times! :mrgreen:

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Ya, I bet those rattled the roof, indoors?? man , I hope you had your ear muffs on! HA
Glad your shoulder is better. Now you can do it again...

[Yaak]

Slow Elk I certainly agree with you about RL7 in the 45-70, it has been my universal 45-70 powder for years. I use the same powder charge for everything from 300-405 grains in either jacketed or cast, it keeps things pretty simple. I suppose I should fine tune that load one of these days eh?....smile. I'll have to put in some quality time with my Marlin GG to see just where to take it. I picked up a box of 405 grain LBT's the other day and I want to concoct a good accurate load for them.

Yaak

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Yaak, yes IMHO I have shot a lot of 3031, 4198 with 300-425gr boolits also, but I settled on RL-7 when it became available, it works for me, good accuracy and all the velocity I want or need. I also use it in several other calibers so it is one of my favorites.

I shoot a lot with the 45/70 and I like the 405-425gr boolits . The 300 & 330gr are good also if you don't like the recoil from the larger boolit, but they defeat the purpose for me, some people swear by them and that is fine, to each his own.

Same goes for the RL-7, when I find something that works for me, I tend to stick with it.

I do enjoy shooting and hunting with the 45/70, it is my favorite.
Cast em and shoot em...and enjoy.

[GabbyM]

Who knows how long the nose is suposed to be for a Marlin Lever gun. My Lyman book just says the #458643 is specificaly designed for lever guns.
I've got the Magma 405 grain three lube grove bevel based ordered. It's for a single shot primarily but it would be nice to know if it would fit through a lever gun.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

GabbyM, It is hard to answer your question without the dimensions of the Magma boolit, it will depend on the nose taper from the top of the crimp grove to the face of the flat on your boolit. .395 should be close.

If you want a better idea of what I am saying, go to Ranch Dog's web site and go to bullet selector, all of these dimensions are worked up to work in the marlin lever actions, if your boolit is longer than this, it may not cycle in the action.
Hope this helps, S.L.

[BrianB]

Craig,
I have reloaded for my 1885 High Wall for over a dozen years and shot a lot of bullets through it. Just stick with a load around 1400-1500 fps. Not much need to go faster. Even a load like 40 grains of Reloder-7 behind a 300gr. bullet will roll a whitetail if he is hit high. (I have flipped two adult deer with spine shots) I hope you enjoy the gun, the 45-70 has been the only rifle I've used while deer hunting for close to 15 years, the reason being that I take little if any pleasure from searching for dead deer.

[Psycho0124]

Who knows how long the nose is suposed to be for a Marlin Lever gun. My Lyman book just says the #458643 is specificaly designed for lever guns.
I've got the Magma 405 grain three lube grove bevel based ordered. It's for a single shot primarily but it would be nice to know if it would fit through a lever gun.

I loaded up some long 535g cast slugs once and, because of the excessive nose length, I had to drop em into the chamber one at a time. No hope of feeding. My length was around 2.750". Also there was no way to eject a loaded round as the nose catches on the front of the ejection port on the way out too. I had to take the bolt out to get my unfired round back out.

Recommended OAL for a loaded 45-70 cartridge is 2.550". As long as you keep it at or below 2.550", you shouldn't have any feed problems at all. I'd bet 2.600" or even 2.625" would feed but I haven't tried it yet.

It would be pretty simple to loosen up the seating die and progressively seat a slug + test for feed. If it doesn't feed, just remove the pivot screw, take off the lever, slide the bolt back a half-inch past the normal full-open position (no further or the ejector will need to be placed back in its groove on reassembly) and tease the back of the stuck round off the feed ramp and up into the bolt channel with your pocket knife and remove. Seat a little further and test feed again.

I have never, not once, had a problem with the feed stroke of any Marlin rifle that I didn't cause myself with excessive-length ammunition. If the overall length is good, a Marlin will wolf down any slug type you can cram into the cartridge! :mrgreen:
:Fire:

[GabbyM]

Just dawned on me that if Magma is selling a 405 grain that won't feed in a Marlin they are selling the wrong mold. Especially since their chart list them as Cowboy bullets. It will be a while before the mold is deliverd.

On a high note. I stopped by the scrap yard today. As I was diging through the scrap plumbing lead I found about twenty pouds of bar solder. Made my day.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Hullo GabbyM, Have you looked at the ranch Dog site yet? Their specs on the 45/70 in the Marlin will tell you what depth you will have to seat to. There is a lot of info out there, but this is Marlin specific. IMHO if magma listes it as a cowboy boolit, it should load ok.[smilie=1:

It looks like your luck is good, I hope it holds for you. Google Ranch Dog and take a look if you have doubts, it will also give you good info on the chamber / throat diam. or lack of..:drinks:

If you want to shoot a longer boolit, you can modify the feed system of the Marlin ( you will have to find a gunsmith that does this conversion) With the recoil generated in this lite rifle I don't think I want a boolit larger than 425gr IMHO.:twisted:

Luck and good casting, S.L.

[redneckdan]

I've been shooting the magma 405gr sized to .452 and paper patched, over 50gr of WC860 and 5gr of promo. I'm getting 1500fps and very few if any unburned kernals.

[Freightman]

I've been shooting the magma 405gr sized to .452 and paper patched, over 50gr of WC860 and 5gr of promo. I'm getting 1500fps and very few if any unburned kernals.
I use 3130 for a kicker and 50-54 gr WC860 with a 404 HB LEE boolit it is some of the best accuracy I get and about the same FPS and no bruise as it is more if a push than a slap.