Bolt gun for 45-70 [Archive]

Frank46

01-29-2006, 12:04 PM

Scotty, think I may have posted this somewhere else. C.E. Harris did some tests some years back with the 348 win ctg. He used a kropatschek rifle, a lebel or berthier, and a moisin. The moisin was used as a single shot due to the magazine not being able to be readily converted to the 348 ctg. I have not seen the gras action so cannot comment as to wether or not its doable. But there are a couple other choices also. Zanders bought out all the gibbs inventory of #1MKIII's converted to 45-70 and still have some. And if you can find a siamese mauser these can be reworked also to 45-70. Navy arms did some of these years back. They also did some conversions of the kropatschek in 45-70 but I believe that they were not wholly successful with them. Something about fetting them to either feed or cycle the rounds through the tube type magazing on the portugese action. Don't remember which it was. Frank

Uncle Grinch

01-29-2006, 09:59 PM

Scotty,

I think I read in another post that Buckshot has a 45-70 Gras. I have a Siamese Mauser that E.R. Shaw did for me about 20+ years ago. It has a 19" barrel with Williams peep sights. The the entire gun is parkerized and is fitted to a utility grade walnut stock that's glass bedded and painted with black wrinkle finish paint. It loves most any round I shoot in it, but most of my loads are cast.

Siamese actions are probably hard to come across now days. I see one every once in a while on GunBroker.

Good luck on your project!!

IMR

01-29-2006, 10:44 PM

A few years ago, the Gibbs Rifle Company bought a boatload of SMLEs and had the actions refurbished. The actions were then sent to Navy Arms where the barrels were installed. .303, .308 and .45-70 were the calibers. The barreled actions then went to a contract stock making outfit and the walnut stocks are really very nice. I bought one. The rifle shoots very well but the only thing I don't like is the large magazine that sticks out the bottom. I've been told that these are the only commercially mfgr'd. .45-70 bolt actions in the states. I've also been told that Gibbs is no longer making these rifles and that I have one of "the last of the Mohicans". BTW, mine can be had, but I ain't givin' it away.

Four Fingers of Death

01-30-2006, 05:02 AM

That large magazine is the reason most people like them as you can stuff more crackers in them.
I'd say buy a Marlin unless you are real handy as most are a bit of a fiddle to get working right. I had a navy Arms Siamese years ago and it was a neat bit of kit. I have a Marlin now and it is as slick as frog snot. No contest really. And its a Yankee original!

Buckshot

01-30-2006, 05:57 AM

Scotty,

I think I read in another post that Buckshot has a 45-70 Gras.

Good luck on your project!!

http://www.fototime.com/4CE0AE555332580/standard.jpg

.....................Buckshot

KCSO

01-30-2006, 10:01 AM

The 95 straight pull is also suitable for 45-70 and is almost ideal for the 444 Marlin. I currently have a 410 conversion of the 95 and am thinking of making up a 444 barrel for the gun as a 444 fits and feeds perfect from the clips. The 45-70 takes a little tweaking to work. The Lebel action will lift and feed a 45-70, but where are you going to get one? In the last 30 years I have run across 2 at a reasonalbe price and I kept them both. I have been offered enough to buy a Gibbs rifle for one of my Lebel's and I had an offer of $300.00 for the SPORTER. The MAS and the 95's were going for $65.00 when I converted mine. If I were doing it today I would go with a M/N 44 as they are still going in the 75.00 range.
If you can't do all the work yourself you need to start with the least initial outlay as other wise the costs will skyrocket.

Mick

The Gibbs rifle will feed 3 45-70's from that hung down magazine. To feed more rounds properly the whole mag need to be redesigned to duplicate the original Lee rifle of the 1880's.

KCSO

01-30-2006, 12:44 PM

Quick Update:
Glen Zanders is closing out the Gibbs rifles this month and they are on the monthly flyer as a special. They still have several in stock.

CSH

01-30-2006, 05:10 PM

You might look into the 458 x 2 (458 Win Mag case shortened to 2"). Ballistics are very similar to the 45-70, it feeds well, and it can be adapted to a lot of existing actions. This cartridge is very similar to the 450 Marlin, which would be another option for your project.

Frank46

01-31-2006, 03:46 AM

There was a gun smith that did a conversion using the swede 96 action and he used a ruger #3 bbl in 45-70. kinda neat but would be on the light side when playing around with heavy loads. Frank

KCSO

01-31-2006, 02:05 PM

I am going to offer a couple of thoughts on building a 45-70 bolt gun to maybe add some perspective to the situaton. If you just want to play around just about any action that will hold the pressure will do. If you intend to make a hunting rifle you need an action that will feed at least 3 rounds flawlessly. For feeding I have found that the Siamese Mauser is the top dog and the Lee Enfield would be #2.
I have seen and handled a M/N that fed flawlessly so I know it can be done, same for the M95. But when you get into grinding and polishing feed rails you had bettter be a pretty dedicated amature or expect to pay big bucks.

I had a Siamese that was done by Charlie Hanson in Chadron and when the gun was built in about 1974 it cost $375.00. If you can't do most of the work yourself expect that you will have the price of a new gun into the project. Right off the top of my head ER Shaw charges $140.00 for installing a 45-70 barel on a Mauser and I don't know if they will even touch some of the other mil surps. Drilling and tapping for sights is $5.00 a hole. Sights start at 25.00 each for front and rear. You see where this is going?

If I decide to whip out something like this for myself I can go to the shop and my time is nothing, I have a large stock of used parts to draw on and what I don't have I can make. If yo aren't in the same boat you may need to be somewhat selective in what you build with, just to keep the costs reasonable.

Frank mentioned a 45-70 on a 96 Mauser action. I would estimate that it would take between 10 and 20 hours to modify a 96 box magazine so it would feed rimmed shells. Modify the bolt face and the extractor and do all the little stuff and you could real quick have a $750.00 rifle. I have a M/N action stripped and ready to barrel into a 45-70 and I havent done the job yet because I am fiddling with the magazine. The barrel I am going to use is old stock from Numerich and I think I gave $20.00 for it.

That Gibbs rifle is looking better and better.

Blackwater

02-01-2006, 03:58 AM

A gunsmith friend did a .45/70 on a M-98 Mauser action, and said he did it just to challenge himself. He then stated he'd NEVER do that again! He finally did get it to feed slickly and reliably, but he said he cursed himself for starting that project many times before he got it completed. When he finally sold it for a half decent price, he told me he figured there was no way he'd gotten even $1/hr. out of his time.

Not having done the work myself, I'll take my gunsmith's word for it, and recommend you give KCSO's words a long thoughtful rumination before you bite this off. If you're tenacious, and just want something different, then go for it, but just know what you're getting into. Personally, I think a #4 Mk I would be really neat. Done up with nice sporter stock, it would make a neat "Ghost and the Darkness" rifle, and that wouldn't be a BAD thing at all, IMO.

Scotty

02-01-2006, 12:52 PM

Heres mine on a #1 MkIII* action...

Scotty, :shock:

Uncle Grinch

02-01-2006, 01:08 PM

Scotty,

Here is a photo of my parkerized 45-70 Siamese Mauser. Lie I mentioned, E.R. Shaw does a great job on these. Mine feeds great.

Four Fingers of Death

02-01-2006, 10:29 PM

Why go looking for problems with rimmed cases. The 458 and 450 would feed well from any 98 mauser and are a simple conversion (compared to the 45/70). Both cartridges can be loaded to any 45/70 level and upwards. I have a 98, a semi finished stock and dies and 40 458Win Mag cases in my gun room and I think they need to introduced to a 458 Barrel.

versifier

02-02-2006, 12:12 AM

Scrounger

02-02-2006, 01:20 AM

I have been looking through COTW and notice that no one has apparantly come up with a .45 rifle cartridge based on either .308 or .30-06. They would need no boltface modifications and could headspace on the case mouth like the .45 auto. With proper attention to feedramp angle, this seems like it would be a workable proposition. Is there an obvious reason I cannot see that would make the idea impractical? Common sense would tell me this could not be an original idea, obviously someone must have tried it. Anybody know?

I don't know of any wildcat like that. Not much taper to that cartridge, headspace would be real iffy. How about necking the .30-06 or .308 case up to .45 and swaging a belt on the case? I understand you can do that (swage the belt) to make cases for the .240 Weatherby from '06 brass...That would give you something to headspace on.

Four Fingers of Death

02-02-2006, 06:00 AM

Thats an interesting concept, probably cheaper to buy 240Wby mag cases and blow them out. They aren't cheap, but the tools to convert them would be, so it would probably be better to just close your eyes and buy some.

I haven't tried any of these conversions, but remember reading about conversions done by lmer Keith and others and .40 cal is about the max that will result in a sufficient shoulder to operate reliabably.

The 45ACP method of headspacing on the case mouth might not be the way to go, if it was feasible, they would probably be already doing it. The only rifle applications I can think of are is the 30M1. I can't see it being reliable enough. Interesting though. I could probably try it with a new barrel blank and if it worked, continue with it, if it didn't run the 458 chamber over it.

All round though, the 458 is an easy, trouble free conversion with widely available brass. Opening up the bolt face and extractor on a mauser is a cheap enough job, considering the savings on fiddling around with other bits. I had a 458 once and they make a gratifying schlunk when you feed one of those big cases in.

KCSO

02-02-2006, 12:52 PM

In 1973 I got a Siamese mauser from Navy Arms and had it tuned and spiffied (Hydraulic, this is a techinical term used by true gun buffs and NOT poor English) up by Bill Laughridge in Fremont. The Idea was that i would use it for a bear gun and being young and foolish i started in trying to see how much powder I could cram into the gun. I had a load that pushed a 500 grain bullet at 1950 fps from a 22" barrel. (Now this was in an 8 1/2 pound sporter. ) When you fired the gun your lead foot would come off the ground with the recoil. We had a range on the farm and for a backstop I used a 3" thick lead plate hung from the front of two layers of railroad ties with a third layer set as a brace in the back. The first shot from the gun slammed the lead plate back on to the backstop and tilted the whole thing back about 20 degrees and then went on to kick up dust every 100 feet for 600 yards behind the target.

My father in Law wouldn't let me shoot the gun there anymore because the backstop would not handle it. In the course of the next month I developed a magnificient flinch and eventually trded the rifle to a fellow going to Alaska for a 243.
When I realized that cast bullets would work in modern rifles for HUNTING I wished I had that gun back.

Scrounger

02-02-2006, 01:41 PM

A .45 caliber on the .30-06 case might be a little tough but have you ever considered a .44? The .444 Marlin is for all practical purposes a .30-06 opened up to .430" and a rim on it. There is a wildcat called the .44/63 (?) Ballard, I think. Basically you just blow out '06 cases in the chamber and use .444 Dies to reload. I've never done this, just speculating here but it sounds doable to me. Loading data for the .444 and heavy bullets is hard to find. I have Lyman moulds that drop slugs of 320 and 348 grains. I don't have my data but I do remember in the .444 my shoulder said they were going pretty fast. A little grinding on the feed rails is probably all you'd have to do to make it feed. And since the .444 Marlin OAL is just a tad over 2.50", this would work in a .308 length action. Or one of the ubiquitous Mauser actions, and .308 cases, I assume.

Uncle Grinch

02-02-2006, 05:38 PM

The largest I have ever heard of an '06 case being opened up is the 400 Whelen and even this has headspace problems due to the lack of enough shoulder. According to Frank Barnes's "Cartridges of the World", the largest practical '06 case is the .375 Whelen, but I do seem to remember a .411 Hawk that Z-Hat promotes. http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm

When I was looking for a large caliber rimless rifle, I ended up opening my Mark X Mauser boltface to magnum size and had it rebarreled to .416 Taylor. All I shoot is RCBS .416-350 FNGC. I reform my brass from .458 Win Mag. It's a real thumper!

KCSO

02-02-2006, 05:41 PM

I now have in hand a couple of Gibb's rifles. I have not shot one yet, but will give my preliminary impressions:
The rifles were made for Navy Arms by Rossi in Brazil and show the same degree of workmanship as is fond in the other Rossi rifles. The guns are made on Lithgow actions (both 44's ) and the guns appear properly chambered and fitted. The triggers on both of these run between 4 and 5 pounds and are crisp. The rear sights are Williams open sights, and I will put a Foolproof SMLE on the one I decide to test. The barrel is both nicely crowned and has a very slight rebate at the rifling. I don't know why, but we will see how it works.

One quick look at the magazines show why they are made to feed 3 rounds. The magazine is cobled together and does not resemble the old Lee magazine in the slightest. I think I will take a 303 mag and weld on new lips and see what can be done in this respect. Failing that I will cut the unused portion of the mag off and have a much smaller magazine. The gun comes with the brass buttplate that was on the issue gun and I can tell you right now that it will NOT be suitable for anything in the was aof a spicy load in an 8.3 pound rifle. I will pick one out tonight and lap the bore and put on a peep and by Monday I wil know if I need to spend any more time working on a magazine.

threett1

02-02-2006, 11:47 PM

waksupi

02-03-2006, 01:10 AM

I have had a Siamese action hanging in the shop for several years now. Finally decided I want a 450 Marlin bolt gun. Problem is I can't get Shaw to reply to any of my inquiries. Any suggestions who I could get to thread a 45 cal barrel for my Siamese?

Try Bauska Rifle Barrel Co., Kalispell, Mt. 406-752-7706. Ask for Steve. Les is too infirm to work in the shop anymore, but Steve has his poop in a pile. He can even do you a tapered octagon, integral front ramp, integral scout scope mount, I believe, all kinds of fun stuff. They are doing my new .358 Win barrel for me. Long established business, Les worked with John Buhmiller, making African elephant wildcats years ago, and there is a lot of knowledge floating aound the shop. Next time I go in, I'm going to try taking some pictures to post here, as it is a great old time barrel and machine shop, I'm sure many of the members here would like to see.
Tell him Ric Carter told you to call.

KCSO

02-15-2006, 03:05 PM

I think that the Gibb's rifle may be one of the best buys I have made in a long time. With a little work the magazine was made reliable and it now feeds perfectly and will hold 3 rounds in the mag and one in the chamber. I have so far managed to shoot 6 different loads in the gun and was surprised that the gun puts loads from the hottest to the standard velocity loads into one 4" group at 100 yards. Individual groups are all under 2" for each load and the gun will print 405 hb Lee's into 1 1/2" at 100 yards. This is with a large gold bead sight in the front and a wide V rear sight.

I did install a large recoil pad both to lengthen the stock and to soak up some of the kick from some of the hotter smokless loads. I did fire some 535 Postell's under a healthy load of 3031 (1850 fps) and will NOT do that again. The gun stood up all right and the brass came out like new, but this is a bear load! Now if I could just get the bear to SHOOT it. I have also taken a couple of squirrels with gallery loads. In my gun they shoot 1/2" high at 25 yards and will throw into 3/4" at that range. After I lapped it the bore shows no traces of leading with plain base bulets up to 1700fps. As much as I love my Krag, this may replace it as a car gun just for the added advantage in caliber when putting down large game.

bruce drake

02-15-2006, 04:12 PM

KCSO,

Dang, when the grizzlies return to Nebraska, you will have a great truck gun to defend yourself!

Bruce

StarMetal

02-15-2006, 04:33 PM

Jim,

That's quite a report on that Gibbs. Gosh, makes me wonder what you need an elephant rifle for in Nebraska....to shoot squirrels I see . :) Well that's cool. Just to have it is cool too. Sure would make a nice truck gun, you'd be equipped for anything from squirrel to bear, to having to take some of the enemies humvee's should that unwanted don't want it here type thing should come about. Well keep up the good shooting and as the bore wears in more and your loads become more refined or you put a scope on it, or at least a good receiver sight, we may see your groups really shrink. Sounds like a good gun and why wouldn't it be on those great SMLE's.

Joe

KCSO

02-15-2006, 09:30 PM

I will never get over my youth, where if you had one gun you were lucky. My grandpa had a shotgun and a rifle, period. All his life he had to make do and so the rifle had to be truly, all round. I don't have a gun in my rack that doesn't have a pretty good range of applications, hence my championing of the 30-40 Krag as an all round cast bullet gun. I do occasionally have to put down lgame and livestock ranging from pigs to buffalo so I always carry a pretty good rifle. I just never took to the litttle black coyote rifle they give me to carry so it is mostly in the gun locker.
I can tell you from sad experience that a 223 is no match for a good car door and that a 44 mag or better is.

hydraulic

02-18-2006, 12:04 AM

kCSO: A techinical term?

wills

02-18-2006, 12:12 AM

kCSO: A techinical term?

Knox County Sheriff's Office

Four Fingers of Death

02-18-2006, 02:35 AM

A few of the gus who convert No4s to 308 here use the existing mag and spring and get a sheet metal single stack mag made which fits inside it. Outward appearance is the same, but the new 'insert' mag can be made to feed pretty easy using the original spring and a simple follower. single stack mags need vry simple followers.

The trouble with shortening or removing the mag is that the front of the trigger guard is flat and rather long and looks a bit out of plumb without the mag. Maybe I have just grown up with the SMLE and see it differently. Removing the magazine does not seem to be very popular in the countries that actually used the rifle. Strange but true :-)

Maybe you could fabricate a similar 'inner ' mag.

Maybe I could make up a rifle like this. I have often thought of making a 303 necked up to 35 or something for cast boolit loads.

maybe I'm not spending money on guns fast enough.

maybe I need a check up.

Frank46

02-18-2006, 03:52 AM

Mick, since you feel that your money isn't being spent fast enough I have a suggestion or two. Your necking up of the 303 case to 35 is somewhat similar to the old 35 winchester. But just for kicks, why don't you try necking up to 375?. Course you'd need a new barrel (there we go spending your money again). Didn't the brits have a case necked up to 375?, think it was called the 375 axite or something like that. Would probably have to blow out the case somewhat to take the taper off and leave something for the shoulder to be formed from. Come to think of it there was a poster on this board that did something similar. Ken waters did something silmilar with the 444 marlin case necked up to 375 for use in a mauser actioned sporter and he reported excellent results. I think the rifle he used had a magazine made specifically for rimmed cartridges but cannot remember the origional caliber, darned CRS again. Frank

Four Fingers of Death

02-18-2006, 05:47 AM

I think it was a Siamese Mauser. I have a 30/30 lever, 32/20 lever, a pair of 357 levers a 44/40 lever, a 44mag lever a 375 lever and a 45/70 lever (along with a whole $hitload of military and sporting rifles) so I got the field covered. What about a 405 Winchester?

Buckshot

02-18-2006, 06:41 AM

..............A 30-40 Krag blown out to 40 cal is considered a 40-60 Maynard. I believe one of the BPCR silhuette gonif's (Garbe, I think) used it to win at Raton in the Mid-90's. He called it a 40-60 Maynard as calling it a "Blown out Krag" wouldn't have been legal to use 8).

I think the 45-70 and the 38-55 are two attractive cartridges. I suppose 'appealing to the eye' would work as well as a description. Clean of line and well proportioned, OD to length makes them rather esthetically pleasing. Possibly the so called 40-60 Maynard, ne' 30-40 blown out would also fit the description of just being 'right'.

While there is the 40-65 made from the 45-70 case, the more severe taper steals somewhat from it's appearance. That is, compared to the 45-7- and 38-55. This is IMHO, only.

................Buckshot

hydraulic

02-18-2006, 11:38 PM

Wills: KCSO, in an earlier post, had given me a jab for correcting his grammar. He then misspelled "technical". I didn't have the High Sheriff of Knox County in my High School English classes, but I did have several of his deputies, the local Nebraska Highway Patrolman, and the town cops from three towns in the county. KCSO is not only a close friend, he is also my gun smith, and he is a darned good one. Don't tell him I said that. As you can see, northeast Nebraska is gun friendly.

Frank46

02-19-2006, 04:56 AM

Mick, haven't tried it but maybe you could take a surplus fal mag and fool around with it and see if it would fit inside a #4 mag and give you what you call a single stack setup. Course you would have to cut it down somewhat to fit inside the #4 mag. The fal mags do not have those little tabs like the #4 mag does so you should probably get straight line feeding. Just a thought. Frank

Buckshot

02-19-2006, 06:22 AM

................The 2 articles I have dealing with conversions to 45-70 and 444 Marlin using the SMLE, report using plastic slabs inserted on both sides of the magazine to slim them down internaly. They then feed in a straight line.

..................Buckshot

KCSO

02-19-2006, 03:27 PM

The gibbs has feed lips with long strips that run to the bottom of the mag to make a straight line feed. I still have hopes for a staggered box magazine that will feed 6 or 7 rounds. The Gibbs magazine is spot welded together and the spot welds didn't hold. In both guns I received the lower spots gave way first and this let the straight line guides shift. I clamped and silversoldered the mag together and now it works fine. I may remove the clip bridge as in 45 -70 it has no usefull purpose.

To Whom It May Concern

Mostly I peruse this forum when I am on hold on the telephone or twiddling my thumbs waiting. I am probably the worlds worst 6 finger typist and I usually don't have time for spell check. Sometimes when I reread my posts I am truly ashamed at the errors that creep in to my grammar and the juxtaposition of letter in my typing. I mosly trust that my friends will forgive me and my enemies can... stew about it.

StarMetal

02-19-2006, 03:33 PM

Jim,

Don't worry about your spelling. Most all of us mess up alot, grammar too. Also I think the web brings out the worse of our spelling, maybe because we don't care as much as if we were actually writing a letter or something. I don't sit here and judge you or anyone else by their spelling.

Joe

waksupi

02-19-2006, 08:14 PM

A man lacks imagination, who cannot think of more than one way to spell a word. I'm terrible in chat for dashing off words, without checking them, and I'm surprised I'm not asked for a translator, more often than I am. There, how was that for a run-on sentence? My old English teachers would be proud!

wills

02-19-2006, 08:31 PM