Requesting technical information on .357/44 Bain & Davis.

[Gunslinger]

Me and a friend of mine just acquired a Ruger Black Hawk in .357 with an additional 9mm cylinder. We want to have the 9mm cylinder converted into a Bain & Davis. I however have a few concerns. And haven't been able to find anything on the internet.

1. I know there are different versions of the B&D and that the 1st generation had a sharper shoulder angle than the current one. How can I be certain that the dies I get, corresponds to the dimensions of my reamed chambers? Or do all available dies have the same specifications?

2. What is the shoulder angle on the current (best) B&D? I've heard 10 degrees, but I am not sure.

3. Where do I get the chamber reamer I need?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

[scrapcan]

We have a few pistolsmiths that frequent this forum so you may want to see if Dave Berryhill is still on here, not sure of his username though.


The reamer can be rented from elk ridge (USA) not sure they will do foreign shipments though.

I was on another forum some time ago and there was a reamer swap on it, I will see if I still have the bookmark.

here is elk ridge site for the 357-44B&D

http://www.reamerrentals.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=237

You can call RCBS or C-H to see what dies they offer for this calibe and then talk to the reamer rental to make sure they match.

You might want to sign up at pistolsmith.com and ask the question over there also.

[anachronism]

Go to the source:

http://www.gunshopfinder.com/bytownresults.asp?ID=3950

Bain & Davis is still in business, but don't appear to have a website.

[Echo]

I also have a BH convertible, and checked out the idea of converting the 9mm cylinder to .357 B&D - checked with someone (CRS) who was recommended, and they nixed the idea. Just not enough material around the chamber. However. a .357-.41 Magnum is possible.

Should do something with mine. Nine J-words rattle down the .357 grooves, and .358 boolits loaded into 9mm cases won't chamber.

[runfiverun]

you could also look into the 38 casull.
bout the same idea just more boiler room.

[nicholst55]

Wonder if .357 Sig would work, or .38-45 Clerke, for that matter.

[lathesmith]

>>>I also have a BH convertible, and checked out the idea of converting the 9mm cylinder to .357 B&D - checked with someone (CRS) who was recommended, and they nixed the idea. Just not enough material around the chamber. However. a .357-.41 Magnum is possible.<<<

What, how can this be? Ruger chambers BOTH the 44 mag AND the 45 Colt in the BH. The 357 cylinder is the same diameter as both of these.Unless the 9mm cylinder is a smaller diameter, a B&D conversion shouldn't be a problem. Besides, to me, as long as the 9mm cylinder shoots well it would make more sense to keep it as-is and rechamber the 357 mag cylinder to B&D.
lathesmith

[anachronism]

Sounds like a job for the 9X25 Dillon.

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w925dillon.html

[Echo]

38-45 Clerke is just a 38 Special on a 45 case. Never meant to be loaded hot, it was designed to feed nicely in a 1911. A solution to a non-existant problem. I had one once - nothing spectacular, so I sold the barrel and re-converted back to 45ACP.

[GLL]

Bain & Davis is indeed still in business and just happens to be my gunsmith ! :)
They still do the conversion and it is very reasonable on a .357 Model S&W cylinder.

Ask for Pete !

Bain & Davis
307 E. Valley Blvd.
San Gabriel, CA 91776

(626) 573-4241

Jerry

[yondering]

I also have a BH convertible, and checked out the idea of converting the 9mm cylinder to .357 B&D - checked with someone (CRS) who was recommended, and they nixed the idea. Just not enough material around the chamber. However. a .357-.41 Magnum is possible.

What lathesmith said. Whoever told you that there's not enough material doesn't know what they are talking about; .44 Mag and 45 Colt cylinders are the same diameter and length as that 9mm conversion cylinder, no reason at all why it wouldn't work.

[Echo]

OK - I will check with the horse's mouth (B&D themselves) and see about having it done.

And if the 9mm cylinder shot worth a hoot I wouldn't be interested in re-chambering...

[Gunslinger]

you could also look into the 38 casull.
bout the same idea just more boiler room.

I actually did. But the .38 Casull is based on the .45 auto, it's a pistol cartridge. Yes it would probably work in the BH. But the reason we're doing the conversion is that the largest caliber allowed around here is a .357, and I'm kind of a sucker for recoil and muzzleblast... which the B&D offers quite a bit of :-D

[lathesmith]

Echo, please keep us posted. I'll keep an eye on this thread. I managed to find a set of B&D dies here a while back, and I have been pondering a conversion or two myself. I always did think it was an interesting cartridge, that was slightly ahead of its time.
I think Gunslinger is right about that muzzle blast thing; if I were to do a B&D conversion I would want at least 6 inches (or more) of barrel.
lathesmith

[Heavy lead]

How does this cartridge compare with the 357 Maximum? Very interesting, always wanted one, but they were gone before I got one, this might work though.

[lathesmith]

HL, the B&D and the Max are very comparable as far as performance is concerned. Each has its ups and downs, but without going into a lot of detail their end uses are nearly identical.
The advantage of a B&D necked down cartridge is length. You get 357 Max perfomance from a standard Ruger BH or S&W 27, WITHOUT a special (and expensive) stretched-frame revolver.
A fair question is, what will a 357 Max do that a 44 mag won't? Probably not much; but, dang, for us 357 fans, we gotta have one, well, just because we love the 357 bore size so much! Yea, I guess you could say I'm a fanatic when it comes to 357...of course, there's nothing WRONG with a good 44 or 45, but it just isn't a 357...
lathesmith

[Gunslinger]

Lathesmith yes I think you're right about the muzzle blast, which is why we're having ours shorted to 4 5/8 he he :-D

Ups and downs of the 2 guns.. and this is based what I've read, please keep that in mind. The maximun has a problem with flame cutting, and the B&D has problems with set backs. I have however read that these set backs can be avoided be keeping the gun really clean.

As for performance I've read on a few occasions than the B&D is slightly superior if you take her to max load...

I fear that my Bain & Davis adventure has come to an end before it has even begun. In Denmark it is illegal to convert casings so the caliber doesn't correspond to the stamp on the brass. Which means that if I want to do this completely by the book, I have to convince a brass company to either ship me .44 mag brass without head stamps and then get them engraved ".357/44 Bain & Davis" when i recieve them, or have a company engave some cases for me :(
Whichever it's going to bring me a head ache!!

[lathesmith]

Gunslinger,
Yes, that headstamp on the brass rule pretty well puts you out of business for this one. I don't see much of a realistic way of getting around it.
I'd say your summary of the pros and cons is on the mark. I would add that neither of those problems for either caliber is really a big deal, and those problems only showed up under certain negligent circumstances. For example, the gas-cutting of the max can be controlled by only using 158 grain and heavier bullets, and avoiding certain powders; and the set-back problem of the B&D is a simple matter of keeping your brass and chambers clean(as they should be anyway).
The max probably will handle 180 grain + bullets a little better than the B&D, as the B&D has a very short neck for gripping, and deep-seating starts to eat up too much valuable interior case real estate. To me these are pretty trivial points though, either cartridge would be great with 158 or slightly heavier bullets and would sure be a blast to try (especially with that short barrel, ha)!
I may yet pick up a BH and do this conversion, like I said since I did manage to find a set of dies. I've always wanted to try one of these, if I didn't have so many other irons in the fire right now...
lathesmith

[ohland]

Quality Cartridge Reloading Brass 357-44 Bain & Davis Box of 50 from Midway, maker is "Quality Cartridge".

Produkt nummer: 455348
Producentens produktnr.: 357-44 Bain Davis

Ikke på lager
Forventet på lager: 30.01.2013
DKK 796,00

[shorty500M]

got magnums and my maximuns but i also regulary toy with the B&D conversion in my mind for best of both worlds- speed of the max in a mag sized toy! Yummy

[ohland]

Assuming my PM got through, I should have a set of 357-44 Bain and Davis dies in order to see what it does from an Encore rifle...

14 Dec -Payment in the unsteady hands of the USPO.

:popcorn:

[ohland]

Look-it the velocities in a T/C. Wrap your hand around a fistful of power.

By Lee Martin
http://www.singleactions.com/BainandDavis.pdf

"It becomes apparent that even with a shorter barrel, the Bain & Davis can exceed the Maximum by around
150 fps."

Moreover, the argument of case setback may be more myth than fact. Either we got very lucky in the guns we built or the redesigned Bain & Davis (ie, the gradual shoulder) is revolver friendly.

TC Contender Barrel Bullet (gr) Powder Grains Velocity (fps)
.357 Rem. Max
10" 158 W296 21.5 1,916
10" 180 W296 19.3 1,700
.357 B & D
10" 158 W296 24.9 2,130
10" 180 W296 22.5 1,895
.357 Herrett
10" 158 H4227 28.5 2,014
10" 180 H4227 27.0 1,815
TC

[ohland]

Case capacity:

Case name / H2O capacity
.357 Mag 27
.357 Max 34
.357/44 B&D 35

[ohland]

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/310/357-44_Bain_Davis/357_44%20Bain%20&%20Davis%20%28B&D%29.html

I have a reprint of the Speer #9 inbound (loads for 357 and 44 AMP). Looking forlornly for scans on similar cartridges from P.O. Ackley's Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders.

"Wildcat Cartridge Packs Kick", - American Rifleman, Apr 1970 Bob Milek
"More Powder = More Power", - Gun World, Jan 1964 by Dan Cotterman
"The .357/.44 Dreadnaught", - Guns&Ammo, Oct 1977 by Dan Cotterman
"Bobcat .357/.44 Magnum", - Guns&Ammo, Mar 1979, by Dr. Ralph C. Glanze
"Loading the 357 Auto Mag" - Handloader #53, Jan 1975 by George Nonte
357-44 Bain & Davis - Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (unknown version)
To come: Speer #9 page on 357 AMP
".357 Bain & Davis" by Lee Martin
357/44 Bain & Davis Website
"Alliant's Power Pro 300-MP" (Propellant Profile) - Handloader #264, Feb 2010, by R.H. VanDenburg, Jr.
"Alliant Power Pro 300-MP Loads" - Handloader #277, Apr 2012, by Brian Pearce
"Magnum Revolver Loads with Alliant Power Pro 300-MP" - Handloader #274, Oct 2011, by Brian Pearce