Acquired two pounds of ?unknown? powder. [Archive]

Gunfreak25

02-25-2009, 02:04 AM

I have a paint can full of 2lbs of unknown ball powder (flattened balls it appears) . It's extremely finely granulated, and is still very fresh. In an effort to narrow down my list of what types of powder this may be, I did a weight test with some of it.

Using a LEE 4.3 CC powder dipper, I scooped up some of the powder, struck it level, and weighed it in an RCBS 505 scale. I measured 5 scoops of powder this way. Each coming out to exactly 62.3 grains of powder. I used this 62.3 grains as a reference. I then took my dipper chart out of the box, and went all the way down, looking at the list of weights for the 4.3 CC dipper. I then slid the card all the way from the left to the right, looking for a charge that was close to my 62.3 grains. I did this with both sides of the card, writing down which brand of powder it may be as I went along. This brought me to just 4 brands of powder It may be. Each within a tenth of a grain of my charges I dipped. They were H205,H380, NORMA 203, NORMA 201. This is just a rough estimate, there may very well be 10 different brands of other powers out there that come close to 62.3 grains in a 4.3CC dipper.

I am currently waiting for an email reply back from Hodgdon on if I can send in a small sample of powder for them to chemically test, to see if it matches a grade of any powder they may produce in their large line of powders.

If anyone here thinks they may be able to find out what it could be, or what it might be, I'd be happy to send them a very small sample (dime sized).

Chances are I will never use this powder. Even if I am given the answer as to what it may be.

clearwater

02-25-2009, 04:29 AM

norma powders mentioned are stick powder

Some shotgun powders are small flattened ball w500 and 540 for example.
They would be very dangerous to use if you loaded them as if they were the speed
of H380.

wiljen

02-25-2009, 09:14 AM

Density is not a good way to tell what you have as none of the non-canister stuff is listed on the charts and you may have powders with the same VMD and very very different burn rates. I'd use it to fertilize the garden myself.

44mag1

02-25-2009, 10:32 AM

burn some next to something you think it is similar to. I wouldent use it but it would be interesting to try to find out what it is.

Bert2368

02-25-2009, 10:43 AM

This is part of the reason every reloading guide I've ever read says to keep powder in original containers.

Another aspect is that the containers small lots of reloading powders are sold in are part of the reason you are allowed to treat it as a flammable solid rather than an explosive for shipping and storage. If you start using any handy container around, their behavior during a fire may surprise you. The behavior of a BATFE agent or DOT inspector who finds you casually storing/transporting it that way may also surprise you!

Gunfreak25

02-25-2009, 05:23 PM

I had no intentions of ever using it for reloading. In fact I was going to give it to my grandfather for his lawn. Just thought it would be neat to see what it could possibly be.

clearwater

02-25-2009, 07:14 PM

I had no intentions of ever using it for reloading. In fact I was going to give it to my grandfather for his lawn. Just thought it would be neat to see what it could possibly be.

I understand your curiosity. It is part of the fun in learning about reloading.

Shiloh

02-25-2009, 09:32 PM

I had no intentions of ever using it for reloading. In fact I was going to give it to my grandfather for his lawn. Just thought it would be neat to see what it could possibly be.

Excellent Decision.

It goes a long way in contributing to the longevity of you being a fellow reloader and
shooter!! If it can't be determined absolutely 100% for sure, no use in having it around.

Shiloh

mikenbarb

02-25-2009, 11:14 PM

Winchester 748 or BL-C types???. You may be able to round it down if you know what the previous owner was reloading with it. Try another sized dipper to see if you get the same results. Just a guess. It could also be from demilled Milsurp ammo.
Fertilizer no doubt.

3006guns

02-26-2009, 02:06 PM

I was originally not going to post on this, but there IS a method of determining what the powder could be used for. I won't go into the procedure, but it's spelled out in Earl Narramore's book on reloading from the 1950's.

You're already two steps ahead, in that you know it's not black powder and is some sort of ball type. Narramore details a step by step method of testing its burn rate, giving it a known quantity so that it can be safely used. I've read this chapter several times and frankly you could figure out if an unknown powder was Bullseye without endangering yourself. No laboratory mortar needed, just common sense and the ability to understand what you're seeing.

No, I have NOT needed to use the process....but I wanted to make you aware that it exists for use by the reloader. After all, two pounds is two pounds!;-)

Bert2368

02-26-2009, 03:45 PM

3006guns-

I'd like to look at that procedure. Is it available on line? See my thread on the 60 lb. of samples from Western I'm researching a use for to see why I'm so interested.

A quick search on line shows one copy available. For $155.88, I don't think I can afford that right now.

Wayne Smith

02-26-2009, 04:43 PM

ASSUMPTIONS! Always check your assumptions. So far everyone seems to be assuming that it is all ONE powder, that it's not mixed. I'd not want to bet very much on that assumption!

Fertilizer - you are right 25, it's a very good high nitrogen fertilizer! Don't put it on the garden, you will get all leaf and no fruit!

3rptr

02-26-2009, 04:47 PM

3006guns,

I guess I can understand how you want to keep a secret from those of us who don't have the $150 bucks. Kinda fun to taunt people, now and then, isn't it?

And I don't mind saying, I personally feel it is wasteful to dump a couple pounds of good powder on the ground. I'm not a wimp, and don't expect to find a bunch of wimps here
with shooters.

Yup. I'm a newbie.

I'd feel a whole lot better about the whole thing if you'd step up to the plate and dscribe a potentially hazardous process you wouldn't advise for anyone who wasn't in dire straits and down to the last charge before the zombies over ran the perimeter.

Now, wouldn't that be better?

I'll mail you federal reserve nots for a xerox of the pages. Your disclaimer is included.

And I'd buy that couple pounds of powder if there wasn't a prohibitive hazmat involved.

None of you know me, I know little of you but your words.
When I pass, you could not imagine what my better half is gonna dump, because she doesn't like junk. She prefers things orderly, clean, and spotless. She'll win, in the end. Women do.

Yes, I pick WW's in the street, and brass at the range. I sluice for Au and pb when I find it in concentration. Waste is something contrary to my personality.

Best to you
3rptr

3006guns

02-26-2009, 07:15 PM

Sorry I didn't get back sooner.......been putting up some .45 auto rim rounds.

The full title of the book is "Principles and Practices of Loading Ammunition" and I realized it was fairly rare when it fell into my hands. It's hardbound and close to 2 inches thick.

My reluctance to post the info really isn't so much about liability.......there's too damn much to type! I was fortunate in that the book was left to me by a dear friend when he passed on and it's a gold mine of info. Things you just don't find in current loading manuals. I've spent many an hour reading it and muttering "ah, yes......now I understand master".

So I tell you what.....if one of you will PM me with your mailing address, I'll xerox the chapter on id'ing unknown powders and send it to you. The process isn't mysterious...no alchemy involved. If, in your judgement, the technique has value to the forum it could be placed on here as a sticky or something......with a strong disclaimer to know what you're doing beforehand! Frankly, I'm thinking about using it to find out what River Valley Ordance put in those two gallon jugs I've got out in the garage............

wiljen

02-26-2009, 09:09 PM

I have Naramore's 1943 Handloaders Manual in pdf format - I'll have to see if it covers that topic.

Ricochet

02-26-2009, 10:16 PM

Wonder if GoogleBooks has scanned that one?

3rptr

02-27-2009, 09:41 PM

I apologize for my short words... must have been near the bottom of the powder horn...

Will remember to take a fouling shot , next time at the bench.

3rptr

rhead

02-28-2009, 07:22 AM

We get samples with questions like that rather often at the lab where I work. Everything from is this old dynamite still any good to why are the fish in my pond dieing? (Quality control lab in a oil refinery) They get very few volenteers to stay over for a few weekends of pro bono work just to answer someones curiosity. You have already stated that you have little or no intention of using it but would just like to know what it is before you dispose of it. Do you expect some of the workers at Hodgdon to work for free just so you will know what you are dumping in the garden? You could buy a couple of pallets of powder for what the testing you requested would cost.
Good luck on your quest.

Gunfreak25

03-16-2009, 06:04 PM

Well about a week ago I sent a sample tube of the powder to a friend of mine. He reloads for over 80 different calibers and has all powders imagineable, even has a microscope and a book with different photo's of powder granules for identification.
After he came to the conclusion it was AA2250 powder, he loaded up 45 grains in a 7.62NATO shell and fired it. He said there were no high pressure signs, velocity was perfect and most of all the powder was extremely clean burning and is suitable for loading in any .308 type cartridge.

Glad I didn't throw it away then! I now have 2 perfectly good pounds of AA2250 powder. Which is a good thing because I have alot of nato brass that needs loading. :D

rugerman1

03-16-2009, 07:35 PM

AA2230 or AA2520?

Gunfreak25

03-17-2009, 06:12 PM

I'm sorry, I typed in AA2250. Got the numbers backwards.

I checked what I wrote down on the can, and it's indeed AA2520.Which I believe was actually developed specifically for .308 in M1A rifles.

Freightman

03-18-2009, 01:37 PM

http://www.idsabooks.com/cgi-bin/idb455/scan/ac=1/st=sql/tf=title/tf=category/tf=price/sf=author/se=Naramore%20E.html?id=AuUqptq9
Found these books by the author bieng discussed.

Cherokee

03-26-2009, 01:15 PM

deleted

Gunfreak25

03-26-2009, 03:52 PM

Maybe we're all dyslexic. :kidding:

jarhead jim

04-05-2009, 11:35 AM

It would make for one of the most important components of a Dupont Fishing Lure.

Jim

Clark

05-18-2009, 06:24 PM

I can use any powder.

The 32 pounds of Surplus Bulk lot of IMR4895 behaves just like H322 predictions in Quickload, way faster than canister IMR4895.

Someone gave me two pounds of Herter's 164.
No data anywhere, but I did find out it was really = Nobel 64.
No Data on that.

So I started out like it was Bullseye and worked my way up.
It turns out to be more like Unique.

I will not pay $25/ pound for unknown powder, as once I get it working just right, I can't get any more.

But I will pay something for any unknown powder.

Obviously this is not for people who just use book load data.
I can work up to pressure sign and back off a safety margin with no risk to me, the gun, or others.

Most people can't.

calkar

05-20-2009, 11:44 PM

Exactly Clark, I found approx 10lb. of unknown powder at a local gunshop very close to gunfreaks description, did my homework and testing and used it for several seasons for cowboy sillouette. Worked great for cast boolits, very accurate, but dirty. I believe it was probably from pulled millitary .50 cal. very slow burning. I was told to spread it on the garden too, but refused. My signifcant other and I did alot of shooting with our 30-30s super cheap, with no signs of pressure, or danger of any type.

Lee

05-21-2009, 03:31 AM

And as I've said before, it will make agreat "bee powder"
.45LC in a SAA revolver use 2-3 grains of unknown powder, top with a styrofoam wad, fill the rest of the way with corn cob(from the cleaning bucket!) then another styrofoam wad. Very lightly crimp to hold the wad in place. (Might need to drill out the primer hole to 1/8" or so, mark the cases so they don't get mixed up.)
FUN! on the bumblebees(carpenter bees?)! If you are like me, and hate what those suckers do to your sheds, etc, then you know what I mean. In fact if you hit one square on, he vaporizes in a gooey yellow flash! Practice your eye-hand coordination. Fun!
Of course you never heard this from me, and YMMV...............

MaxJon

01-12-2021, 12:04 AM

gbrown

01-14-2021, 11:08 AM

I have posted this on several threads. Sometime bacK, I went to an estate sale. Found nothing inside of interest. Saw people going in and out of an out building. Went over, the fellow was a shotgun reloader. Tons of shotgun wads, hulls, and equipment. Found an open 8 lb. jug of Scot 1250, 3/4 full, $15.00 or so. Got it. Posted a query here about it. A kind person gave me the load data on it. Perfect for 380, 9mm, 38/357, 45, etc. Loaded medium loads, chronographed, performed to data. Loaded a ton of it. Wish they still made it.

JoeJames

01-14-2021, 12:01 PM

Clark - "So I started out like it was Bullseye and worked my way up". If I was going to test it that is exactly the baseline I'd use - Bullseye.

rbuck351

01-16-2021, 09:07 PM

I have on three occasions ended up with large lots of unknown powder. Being too cheap to throw out 3 8lb jugs or in another case 25lbs of unknown. I did the "treat it like a very fast powder" and load 3grs in a 22H case with a 40gr boolit and fire it. Check for pressure signs and move up to 5 grs. Keep moving up until pressure shows and move up to a 223 case when the 22H is a full case and no pressure. If the 223 case fills without pressure, move up to a 308. Sooner or later you will hit pressure signs unless it's 5010 like the 25lb jug I got. A 416 Rem with a case full and a 365gr cast still shows very low pressure so I started adding kicker charges of AA9 and ended up with a good load for the 416 that cleaned up the unburned powder and still showed rounded primers.
I am NOT recommending this for anyone else. I tried a full case of 5010 in a 308 case and experienced a bit more pressure than I liked. Experimenting without proper pressure equipment can surprise you. If I decide to go with 5010 in a 308, I will start with a case about 80% filled instead of full.

Pressman

01-17-2021, 08:07 AM

I recently ended up with a 5 pound container oh Herter's 160 powder. Looking through their old data I found it only listed as a 12 gauge powder. Nothing else. I don't shoot shotguns.

So, looking at another powder that listed nearly identical velocity and pressure I found Red Dot to be the closest though 160 uses about 1.5 grains more powder to equal Red Dot loads. So I have a starting point and loaded some Red Dot and 160 in 30-06 behind a 180 cast boolit. It works, and very well. Now, just to find enough primers to equal 5 pounds of powder loaded at 11 grains per load.
Ken