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shooter575
01-28-2006, 09:41 PM
Hey the bretta is going to be replaced.Bringing back the .45 ACP.They are looking for a platform


http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060127.aspx

KCSO
01-28-2006, 10:30 PM
And they wasted how much of our money and 20 years and ?? lives on an experiment that had already failed in 1900. I'm just gald that Col Cooper lived to be vindicated.

Ricochet
01-28-2006, 10:32 PM
For once, they've made a good decision.

beagle
01-28-2006, 10:34 PM
Here we go reinventing the wheel again.

I just read the fiasco that the government got involved in with adopting the 9mm in the first place. Man, I'll bet some money changed hands big time under the table on that deal.

Having toted both a .45 M1911A1 and a Browning HP under conditions where little yeller fellers were shooting at me, I can say that I was fairly comfortable with both of them with leanings toward the .45 ACP.

I just think that the Armerican public wants too much in it's sidearms for the military.

IMO we should go back to the M1911A1 and let Special Ops do it's own thing.....they do anyway as I've played that game as well.

We need to ask the GI on the ground what he thinks we need and leave the news reporter, the Infantry board and the gun writers out of the equation./beagle

Four Fingers of Death
01-29-2006, 12:00 AM
I reckon they should get a heap of soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen together with all of the acceptable pistol platforms, have heaps of each available, make them shoot all of them in turn for the first week, then let them shoot anything the second week. Back to taking it in turns for the third week, making sure they get even exposure, and then for a week or so letting them pick their favourite weapon. This would be very revealing I think.

It seems to me, no matter how much we praise the 1911A1, most avoided it like the plague and most didn't shoot well with it. I have had a couple and I found they were nastly little guns that bit me and took pieces out of me every time I used a standard one. Any amount of firing left a big bruise in the web between the thumb and forefinger and generally took a piece out of that part also as the slide caught a bit of hand that had creeped up around the beavertail.

I was happy with my commander and my current series 80, with the extended beavertail.

Reliable as it is, it is hard to shoot for smaller hands and too bitey for larger hands without modern style extended beavertails.

Most armies don't have much to do with pistols, unlike America. The only time I was in a position to be issued a pistol was as a tank troop leader, but we used to turn our noses up at the High Power and generally carried a sub gun or a rifle. Want to pack a pistol and a few mags for it, heck no, gimme another couple mags for my business piece (sub gun).

Maybe you guys should look at a glock in 45 gap. :-)

mike in co
01-29-2006, 01:37 AM
i'll open my self up to some nice flames...
( i like em all)
but

why is it the 3/4 of the world's police and mil shoot 9mm or less, but we, the us of a, think the only gun is a 45acp ??

( i like going to a modern 45...the 45gap)...all those beratta frames with a new slide ??)

seennnnnnddddd me your thougths

Frank46
01-29-2006, 01:38 AM
Mick, I have two 45's. One is a WWII ithaca and the other is a tricked out springfield armory. Love em both. Just think, iffen de gov't goes to the glock in the gap ctg then you could get surplus once fired gap cases. As for me I have a 40mm ammo container full to the top of 45acp cases. long live the 45acp!!!!!!!!!!!. Frank

keeper89
01-29-2006, 07:42 AM
45 GAP seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist............

txpete
01-29-2006, 11:23 AM
while I am not anti-9mm and do own a few I would take a 45 over a 9 anyday.you have to remember that the army is only allowed to use nato fmj loads.
I have stayed in contact with a few guys in the unit I retired from.when they tell you about it taking several hits to put a man down it is time for a change.one of the biggest complaints I heard was of the poor quality of the the mags the army bought.
the army did need a change as most if not all the 1911's we had were just worn out.the last time the army bought any 1911's was WWII.I know it is in the works to bring back the 45 acp.it will be interesting to see who is the lowest bidder.
pete

StarMetal
01-29-2006, 11:44 AM
keeper89

Apparently you don't understand the reasoning for a 45 GAP. A company can't make a 45acp smaller enough. Sure they chop them down pretty good but they are still chunky and still have that big grip, even tho the chopped ones are abbreviated in lenght but not in girth.
That's the idea of the GAP, to put a 45 caliber on a smaller grip frame, which they have done. Alot of people with not so large hands have more then a handful on the grip of a 45acp pistol.

Don't think for one second that 45 GAP is wimpy compared to a larger 45 acp because it isn't.

Let me ask you this, what would you want face someone intent to kill you with, a 9mm or a 45 GAP?

Joe

txpete
01-29-2006, 11:49 AM
I think it is pointless what "he" has in his hand but what you have in yours and the ability to see he gets his 72 virgins

MT Gianni
01-29-2006, 01:23 PM
If you read history and are able to research the hassle's Samuel Colt had in trying to introduce a revolver over the old single shot muzzle loaders you will find a process riddled with self important people arguing over their own interest's with little concern for the users of the final product. Never having served in any military branch I have worked for a couple of medium sized corporations and don't see that their process's have evolved much over the last few hundred years. My main concern as to what the Armed Forces shoot is for cheap surplus brass. There are probably very few instances since we went to 9mm that someones life was lost because they didn't have a 45 and may be just as many saved because of the extra shots carried in the magazines. Just my take on it. Gianni.

XBT
01-29-2006, 01:35 PM
I have no intention of engaging in a Beretta vs. 1911 or even a .45ACP vs. 9MM discussion here, but having been a shooter for many years I do have an opinion on this subject.

I have owned several 1911’s, and still own one now, but I have never been able to do especially good shooting with them. Like Mick, I found they tend to hurt my hand if shot extensively.

My experience with the Beretta 92 has been better; they seem, to me anyway, to be much easier to shoot well without extensive practice. It is my opinion that a new shooter could be trained on the Beretta much quicker than the 1911.

As for the effectiveness of the 9MM cartridge, it has been used in military handguns for over one hundred years, and is still currently used by a large number of countries. If the round had any serious deficiently, it surely would have been noticed by now.

The unforgivable sin of both the Beretta 92 and the 9MM cartridge is that they replaced the much beloved (in some circles) 45ACP chambered in the 1911.

nighthunter
01-29-2006, 01:51 PM
TxPete ... imagine the look on his face when he finds out that its not 72 Virgins but rather 72 Virginians.
Nighthunter

krag35
01-29-2006, 02:24 PM
Mike; No flame, but since the USA seems to lead the world in the realm of "practical" pistol shooting, seems they/we ought to know something about what works best. My take is that 3/4 of the worlds police and military are wrong.

I'm with keeper89 on the 45 GAP.

Has anyone else noticed the surge in popularity of the "double tap" and the rise in popularity of the 9mm? Quite frankly I don't want to be shot with any hand gun, but if I'm doing the shooting, I want a 45 ACP.

krag35

StarMetal
01-29-2006, 02:34 PM
Well I think Krag35 and Keeper both are wrong, but I'm allowed to have that opinion. The military today has both women and men in active combat situations. I don't think a 1911 would fit many women hand's, it is a large grip. This situation is the same for Law Enforcement, probably more so as they probably have a higher percentage of women then the military actually used on the combat field. Both these groups want the most powerful best man stopping round there is...that's the 45 acp...but guns for it can't be made small enough especially in the grip area. So the problem is GRIP TOO LARGE, the solutions GLOCK 45 GAP.

End of story.

Joe

9.3X62AL
01-29-2006, 02:54 PM
The using services could do a LOT worse than to adopt the SIG-Sauer P-220 in 45 ACP. It does all the good things the 1911A1 does, and none of the bad. The services already have the M-11/SIG-Sauer P-228 on board as the compact sidearm, so training data already exists in their system.

The adherence to FMJ ammunition in the Iraq and Afghan theaters is utter nonsense. These guys set off bombs in public places, and target civilians more than opposing forces. Our adversaries are not a nation-state army, they are terrorists and criminals--the Geneva Accords do not apply. The 9mm with good JHP's is a far better stopper at M-9 intensities than is the FMJ bullet.

If the weapon and ammunition selection process for the military is anything like what happens in the police business world--it is a joke. I think our agency got one deer hunter that shoots from a Winnebago--two bean counters from Accounting & Finance--a couple people who didn't attend the last staff meeting--and tasked them with selecting platform and contents. One member of this brain trust denied the use of scope-sighted bolt action .223 rifles as "Patrol Rifles" because they were "too accurate"--his words. Mind you, the rationale for this whole patrol rifle gig was schoolyard shootings like Columbine. "Too accurate". The only reason we have the good ammunition we have is that it is part of the State of California contract purchase--and someone in Sacramento did something right. It must be accidental, I'm sure of it. I think a drunk at a pie chart dart board could do better selecting.

SIG-Sauer P-220 in 45 ACP gets my vote.

StarMetal
01-29-2006, 03:00 PM
Deputy Al,

Maybe Sig could employ the 45 Gap on one of their small frames. Springfield has alreadly done this.

Joe

9.3X62AL
01-29-2006, 03:06 PM
That's possible--but the P-228 has the roll-pinned bolt assembly, and the 40 S&W and 45 GAP will require the forged one-piece slide assembly now used on the P-226 and P-229. The P-220 only requires the cheaper and easier folded slide and pinned bolt assembly--lower pressure of the 45 ACP enables this.

krag35
01-29-2006, 04:21 PM
StarMetal, if we all had the same opinion, things would be pretty boring wouldn't it? I understand your point about the 1911 frame being to big for some people's hands. To MY hands, the depth (front to back) of a grip frame isn't as important as the width (side to side) of a grip frame. That's why I don't own a double stack auto. I briefly had a Glock (don't remember the model, but it held 17 rds of 9mm) to ME it was about as comfortable to hang onto as a brick. I haven't studied the GAP, because to ME it's another also ran like the 40 S&W.


IMHO any move up in caliber from the self loading 38 special they are using now is a good thing.

krag35

Poygan
01-29-2006, 04:30 PM
How come nobody is voting for the FN 57? New and modern, unlike regressing to the 45ACP (OK, so we regressed a little going from the 45 to the 9mm) but the corporate memory is short. Believe there is also a sub gun in current production for it as well. Minimal recoil, works on body armour, is new and improved, etc.,etc.

StarMetal
01-29-2006, 04:34 PM
Krag35

You're right about the opinions.

I don't know, they put those finger relief cuts in the 1911 frame by the trigger so people with short fingers could reach the trigger better.
I forget what magazine it was but they did an article and pictures of how much difference that shorter in reach grip frame really made.

I've never thought of the 1911's grip as thick. Now I will admit the grip of my Glock 45acp is thick, but not too thick for my hands. I can't see how just about anyone's hands couldn't fit say a Browning HP.

Joe

Bret4207
01-29-2006, 06:50 PM
I think the 45 makes a good choice for combat types. That isn't going to be, or shouldn't be little girls, so I don't see where a "modernized" 45 ACP 1911 type platform would be a problem. Get a beavertail on it, some decent combat sights, and that should bet rid of 75% of the problems. The rest is training IMHO.

As for the 45 GAP- I'm in the " not needed" group. I've read up on it and just don't see it being an answer to a HUGE problem. The cal and velocity is right on though.

The 9mm is being used by a whole lot of the rest of the world? And? Doesn't mean it's the best choice for the need our guys identified. There's got to be reams of thought that went into this. The 9mm was a "standardization" thing with NATO IIRC.

txpete
01-29-2006, 07:18 PM
now just remember I am just a old beat up G.I. with 20+ in the air cav.
my wife shoots my 1911 colt just fine,if someone broke into my house they have a serious problem.so "women" can't shoot 1911's is horse feathers.
in the military(when I was in) the guys got issued 1911's and the women got issued a s&w mod 10's in 38 special.
before I retired we got issued the M9 9mm.trust me some woman had a hard time with the thick grip.most didn't qual. this first time at the range.
the most important part here is the lack of training.in the army you get to fire twice a year for most.1 practise and then qual. sad but true.
is the 45 gap the answer I don't really know but as long as we are sending our troops in harms way they should be issued the best money can buy.
pete
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/1cd1.gif

StarMetal
01-29-2006, 08:25 PM
Gee Tpr Bret, you mean you and I can't turn this into a been argument like the Why I Like The 9mm Thread? We're starting to agree too much hahaha.

Myself...I have never concidered the 1911 45 acp a hard recoiling gun. It in no ways compares to a 357 mag, 41 mag, or 44 mag in recoil. Not even close. Now if you want to talk about something snappy on the 1911 platform, try a fullhouse 10 mm. If a 1911 had some real serious recoil issues why did they make the little Officer models and why do folks buy them and not complain? If the recoil was so astrocious in the big 1911, then by God those little compacts like the Officer models would either rip your hand apart or wrench and throw the gun from your hand. Nah, the 1911 have vicious recoil..nope don't want to hear that. I just think some folks are intimidated by the 1911.

Joe

mike in co
01-30-2006, 12:35 AM
Mike; No flame, but since the USA seems to lead the world in the realm of "practical" pistol shooting, seems they/we ought to know something about what works best. My take is that 3/4 of the worlds police and military are wrong.

krag35

krag...me thinks you are wrong. but you are intitled to your opinion.
in dont think we lead the world in this area.

we are just participants like all the rest.

we shoot at steel and paper...its a game. it provides practice but not neccassarily praticality.

action pistol shooting started in so africa as realistic training for the run and gun amushes of the time in thier country.


at that time our pistol matches were stand up and aim at a bullseye target.
( dont get me started on the useless idpa 10 rd politiaclly correct bs or cowgirl shooting.....all dress and no power allowed)

if all those countries are wrong...how do they manage to keep the peace ??

do you realize that most european countries used 32 acp as thier side arm,and the com bloc's used 9mac....bigger than 9mm but slow like 9mm corto. nato is what moved them UP to 9mm.

it dosent ring any bells in your head when you say 3/4 of the rest of the world is wrong?

now i like shooting 45acp. i have shot it in ipsc and idpa. i find 45acp easy to shoot. i honestly dont understand when people say it makes their hands hurt.

look at the low pressure of the round. it pushes the bullet down the bore. easy slow recoil
look at the high pressure of 9mm...it snaps the bullet down the bore. the muzzle flips sharply.

i can shoot 45 very well with little practice, when i shoot 9mm i must practice to shoot well

StarMetal
01-30-2006, 12:40 AM
Someone mentioned why not go to that new FNH 5.7 round and pistol. Because it is suppose to penetrate body armor. Well shoot, might as well ressurect the 7.62x25 Tokarev round, that puppy will penetrate body armour too with the right bullet type. That 5.7 isn't going to have any good knock down power when you need to take somebody down and fast.

Let's go back to the 45acp so our next generation can enjoy the caliber and the plentiful military brass.

Joe

fatnhappy
01-30-2006, 12:50 AM
Having toted both a .45 M1911A1 and a Browning HP under conditions where little yeller fellers were shooting at me, I can say that I was fairly comfortable with both of them with leanings toward the .45 ACP.

The little ******** shooting at me were the same brown guys shooting at my brothers in arms and my actual brother now.
Those "little yeller fellers" were shooting at my uncles and father, from '44 to '69. My Uncle Jack spent more years in combat than I spent in uniform.

I trust my .45.

NVcurmudgeon
01-30-2006, 03:54 AM
1900-Moslem fanatics in the Phillipines do not fall down when hit by .38 Long Colt bullets. Solution? Get .45 Colt pistols out of storage and start a program that led to adoption of the .45 ACP 1911 Colt.

2005-Moslem fanatics in Iraq and Afghanistan do not fall down when hit by 9X19 bullets. Solution? Equip special forces with .45 ACP pistols and start a program leading to adoption of a new 45 ACP pistol.

"Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

Four Fingers of Death
01-30-2006, 06:43 AM
I don't want to sound like a $hit stirrer curmudgeon, but if you looked at your argument dispassionately two things are established:
1) use 45s
2) stop fighting muslims

Don't worry, just joking, our guys are over there two, one of my correctional officers from work is commandin a LAV in the middle east.

Four Fingers of Death
01-30-2006, 06:49 AM
Frank, I love the 45ACP also, when they confiscated my Colt Commander, I went out and bought a new Colt in 38Super Auto (38cal max allowed in combat/service style arms) and a pair of sequentially serial numbered 45 ACP/Colt convertibles. I wasn't gonna give up shooting 1911s or the 45ACP. Its a shame, the Govt won't let me do it together. I have a thousand or so cases (500 near new) its going to take me awhile to use them up shooting revolvers.
Mick.

NVcurmudgeon
01-30-2006, 12:58 PM
Mick, both your points (1) and (2) are excellent. Unfortunately, we don't always have the luxury of choice. I'm real glad my nephew, after ten years in Special Forces, is no longer "touring" Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Iraq, but it seems nearly everybody I run into has somebody in one of those third world slime pits.

P.S. I see from your post about your LAV buddy that Aussies and Yanks are still going to each other's wars. If it must be, we can't ask for better company!

KCSO
01-30-2006, 01:26 PM
I can only speak from experience. I got my first 45 40 years ago and have carried one for serious social encounters for 33 years. I have never had to shoot anything that the 45 didn't do the job and that includes 2 900 lb cows.

shooter575
01-30-2006, 02:10 PM
1900-Moslem fanatics in the Phillipines do not fall down when hit by .38 Long Colt bullets. Solution? Get .45 Colt pistols out of storage and start a program that led to adoption of the .45 ACP 1911 Colt.

2005-Moslem fanatics in Iraq and Afghanistan do not fall down when hit by 9X19 bullets. Solution? Equip special forces with .45 ACP pistols and start a program leading to adoption of a new 45 ACP pistol.

"Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

NVC,I was just going to remind every one of the Morro conection. The Quote of that day was "Civilize them with a Krag"
The islamofascist I hope they know we are still playing nice guy.If it goes to Cowboy and moslem it will get real ugly...Fast.

bruce drake
01-30-2006, 02:23 PM
I don't want to sound like a $hit stirrer curmudgeon, but if you looked at your argument dispassionately two things are established:
1) use 45s
2) stop fighting muslims

Don't worry, just joking, our guys are over there two, one of my correctional officers from work is commandin a LAV in the middle east.

Mick,

Spent a year in Iraq last year with the US Army. Those Diggers of yours are some of the best I've worked with in 16 years in the U.S. Marines and U.S. Army. Always glad to have you guys along on the convoys though I never could get over those banana yellow and green "sand" camouflage they wore.

Bruce

Urny
01-31-2006, 01:02 AM
Herself, my little wife, is 4'11", has short fingers, and handles her .45 ACP Commander just fine. Given that, how much of a problem can the size of the 1911 frame be?

BTW, one of the GI's complaining about the lack of stopping power of the 9mm in Iraq is said to be a little female Sergeant from Kentucky who's not much bigger than my wife. Can anyone confirm or refute that?

9.3X62AL
01-31-2006, 01:16 AM
During Marie's Army stint, she was PISSED when they took away her 1911A1 x 45 and replaced it with a 38 revolver. Staff NCO's like her in nursing units carry sidearms to discourage unwelcome advances on her personnel. After a short time, she was issued an M-11 (SIG P-228), which she liked very much. I brought one home a few years ago, and it disappeared almost immediately into her night stand. I'd get a 1911A1, but it would probably grow legs in similar fashion.

redneckdan
01-31-2006, 01:41 AM
I brought one home a few years ago, and it disappeared almost immediately into her night stand. I'd get a 1911A1, but it would probably grow legs in similar fashion.

Isn't it funny how that happens? When we go to the range, if I have any intention of shooting my 1911 I have to keep it in my holster. Other wise after shooting the rifle for a bit I'll turn around and find a scuzzy 1911, 200 rds of empty brass and a giggling girlfriend... :roll:

9.3X62AL
01-31-2006, 11:45 AM
The bottom line is that I'm very happy to have a lady in my life that enjoys the hobby nearly as much as I do.

In 1987 when we transitioned to the autopistol from the revolver, there was much hue and cry about "how much trouble the 45 ACP would be to control". The choices then were a lot more limited--SIG-Sauer, S&W, or Beretta.....9mm or 45 ACP.

The 45 "problem" was a TOTAL non-starter. Both S&W and SIG pistols were easily controlled by operators of all statures, hand sizes, and gender. To this day, the SIG P-220 in 45 and Glock 22 in 40 S&W remain the most frequently carried sidearms among our personnel at all ranks and all assignments. Same story on the "transition" trigger stroke--double to single action transition, that is. Folks still spoil the first (D/A) shot, but shifting to short from long stroke never was an issue once some drills were "downloaded" during training--double taps from hammer down position/holstered. Re-visiting that drill sequence made the first shot misses disappear, too. I burned up about 30-50 rounds of County ammo per deputy on quals days doing those sorts of drills, which not only got the shooters "warmed up" and focused--the scores went up significantly, as well.

Autopistol skills are A LOT more "perishable" than are revolver moves. My little "warm up" regimen got adopted County-wide a few years after I started it in the mid-90's. Why this wasn't instituted from 1987 forward was always a mystery to me, but admin and training bureau types don't get outside a lot, I guess.

Cherokee
01-31-2006, 11:48 AM
I could be happy with a Para double stack LDA in 45 ACP. Been shooting the Para wide bodies for year with my small hands, not a problem for me.

Dutch4122
01-31-2006, 12:20 PM
....... but admin and training bureau types don't get outside a lot, I guess.

Amen to that! Funny thing is that at least in my part of the country the 9mm has now devolved past the double tap and on to "shoot til they go down and stay down, remember kid (calls me a kid at 37 even though I can tell my flashlight has more time in a patrol car than he does) the body is just a big bag of blood and the only way to stop 'em is to fill 'em full of holes til they run outa gas."

During the whole time I'm still missing the personally owned .40 I carried before they shoved the 9 iron down our throats a little more than 10 years ago. Guess that's one of the reasons they never sent me to Firearms Instructor School!

Oh yeah, back on subject. A Sig 220 American in .45 ACP or a high capacity .45 GAP pistol would probably be the answer to the troops dreams over there. Trouble is, all govenment agencies end up with the lowest bidder or somebody got a kickback to award the contract for junk.

JMHO

robertbank
01-31-2006, 02:10 PM
Nice to see this debate but I would mention two things that I think come into play. The 1911 is not an inexpensive gun to produce and more importantly the pistol is not as a major fighting weapon as it once was. The pistol probably hit it's peak IMHO during WW1 when the other option was a bolt action rifle.

Infantry guys look upon it as another 40 oz. to hump. If fire power were the only consideration than the 9MM gets the nod. Has done the job as long or longer than the .45acp just as effectively. Both are rather anemic for the job at hand but do if you don't have a rifle.

Not sure when the last time an Army hit the beaches waving their pistols but it has been some time.

Stay Safe

txpete
01-31-2006, 03:49 PM
my dad was a WWII vet and retired from the cdn army.he "aquired" a colt 1911 and kept it until the war was over.
pete

Bret4207
01-31-2006, 07:16 PM
Re- the police of the the other 3/4 of the world using 9mm, 380's, 32 Auto's- Yes- but look at what they use when the crap hits the fan- full auto sub-guns. In the US it's usally a shotgun as the next link in the weapons progression. British Bobbies don't carry handguns usually. When they do it's a little 38 I think. Next step up is a sub-gun.

They do things differently, thats all.

As for the 45 not being used by combat troops- theres a whole lot of guys from WW2, Korea, Viet Nam, the Gulf and the current conflict who might disagree. The problem doesn't appear to be fire power, but rather a lack of effectiveness against the target.

Dutch4122- My line is, "How old are you kid? 22? I've got socks older than you!" or "How long you been on the road? Almost a year? Those tires on my car have more time on the job than you do!"

Dutch4122
01-31-2006, 08:26 PM
My line is, "How old are you kid? 22? I've got socks older than you!" or "How long you been on the road? Almost a year? Those tires on my car have more time on the job than you do!"

Forgot an oldie but a goodie that I'm proud to say does not apply to me yet: "I've got more time on disciplinary action than you have behind the wheel, junior!"

One other thing about the .45 vs. 9mm debate that struck me watching the footage is that the sidearm is getting used quite a bit in all the entry/CQB stuff that is going on over there. Could possibly be that the pistol is getting into more shooting situations than in the non-urban combat scenarios that have dominated in the previous century. That being said the military is confronted with real statistics in larger numbers than ever before showing the ineffectiveness of the 9mm hardball that cannot be denied.

walltube
01-31-2006, 11:07 PM
Well Now.........

Seems that bigger (as in bullet dia.) is better? Yep, that's the thinking one small police department in the New Orleenz area has adopted.

Given the experiences of the immediate post-Katrina insurrection LEOs dealt with in the Big Greasy, multiple hits by their respective nines & forties did not deliver. Now don't ya'll get on that poor marksmanship under stress soap-box sermon, that is not THE issue! A criminal pumped (literally) full of amphetemines and what ever smorgasboard of drugs from looted pharmacies will NOT respond to pain and\or shock as would an "unmedicated" human. Except at VERY close range the aforementioned criminal simply refused to immediatley drop dead. Not enough tissue\bone damage. Enter the Glock .45..........

As StarMetal has stated, the .45 GAP will offer better grip purchase for hands too small for even a single column .45ACP 1911 type pistol. If some will argue that the lessened propellent capacity of the GAP as a negative, consider the 7.62X51 vs. the 7.62X63: technology. Olin's ball powder made the NATO round. The old hands here know propellents, ask them :)

Don't agree with the big bore pistol as a fight stopper? Take your arguement to the preceeding 150 years of .44 or .45 pistol calibre use by the U.S.A. or UK. History is repeating itself.

Oh yes, the Dep't. issue .45GAP projectile will most definately not be politically correct. [smilie=w:

Truly Yours,

Walltube

Bret4207
02-02-2006, 08:54 AM
This is totally politically incorrect but- IF YOUR FREAKIN' HANDS ARE TOO SMALL TO HANDLE A 45 YOU DON'T BELONG IN POLICE WORK!!!! I don't know where this idea of midgets being cops came from but it's really getting crazy now. 4'10" women do NOT belong in a uniform. If it's a 4'10" man it'll be even worse for him. Maybe we should stop trying to fit the gun to the physical oddites and make the person suitable for the job in the first place. End rant.

robertbank
02-02-2006, 09:00 AM
I have shot with RCMP female members who could barely handle their S&W 9MM recoil. Could not imagine them in a physical encounter of any kind. ;-)

45 2.1
02-02-2006, 09:01 AM
This is totally politically incorrect but- IF YOUR FREAKIN' HANDS ARE TOO SMALL TO HANDLE A 45 YOU DON'T BELONG IN POLICE WORK!!!! I don't know where this idea of midgets being cops came from but it's really getting crazy now. 4'10" women do NOT belong in a uniform. If it's a 4'10" man it'll be even worse for him. Maybe we should stop trying to fit the gun to the physical oddites and make the person suitable for the job in the first place. End rant.

Your right! It is politically incorrect, but that should have went out with Klinton. Maybe that is the reason why the military will only take people of a certain height and above, they need to be big enough to fight.

9.3X62AL
02-02-2006, 11:58 AM
An FBI firearms instructor I have worked with and learned from over the years is a total believer in the "bigger is better" schools of both personnel stature and sidearm caliber. He was positively scandalized when his agency recommended the 147 grain JHP sub-sonic loads after the Miami debacle--both as to caliber selection and performance envelope. A total 45 ACP devotee. So, I think he and Bret could talk for hours--I know he and I did.

BOOM BOOM
02-05-2006, 02:12 AM
HI,
Well I'm not a semiauto fan, but have shot a few.
To be realistic police sidearms are chosen by upper level desk jockies, both here in the US & world wide.
1)They don't get in life & death shootouts.
2)They are polital animals. So politically correct is a big issue w/ them.
When I was in law enforcement we were forced to the police officers version of the suicide special (38 special). So the 9MM was a step up.
But if a high cap. 9 & a 357 were laying side by side on a table in front of me & the S--- hit fan, I would have picked the 357 .
I'm a dinosaure I guess, but I'm with Col. Hatcher, Jeff cooper, & St. Elmer .
GIVE ME A 40 CAL OR LARGER, 200GR. BULLET OR HEIVER, & 1000'/S OR FASTER .
For me the 44mag is the only choice for serious social encounters of the third kind.
I would choose the 45acp if I had to use a semiauto.
But I have never had much use for them.
Also I have never met a woman ,who if taught right , could not handel a 357 just fine. I've met many who if they wanted to could shoot my 44 just fine.
So the 45acp is definitly not too much gun for a woman.

Idaho Sharpshooter
02-05-2006, 02:50 PM
Lemme see, "those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them (mistakes)...". The quote is something like that. In 1899 the government replaced all those klunky old 45 Long Colt SAA's with modern, technologically advanced DA revolvers chambered for the 38Spl and shipped my great-grandfather and his first cousin to the Philippines. Numerous US troops lost their heads to Moro tribesmen using parangs. The govt. then cut them old 45LC barrels to 5 1/2" and sent them over. End of problem. My GG-father had already written home and got his folks to ship him a Colt Bisley in 45LC and ammunition. He related to me as a child how that Bisley would "pick 'em up off the ground and throw 'em backards 10 feet. By time they hit the dirt they wuz dead". That was when the idea of a military rifle or pistol was to kill enemy soldiers before they could get to you. Today we have this theory that wounding an enemy soldier is preferable, that tow of his buddies pick him up and haul him back to the rear for medical treatment. This theory is spurious, ragheads and most other benighted heathens we face don't care. Incapacitation is the name of the game. With FMJ ammunition mandated the only surefire way to deal with a situation is to destroy the central nervous system or shatter the heart or brain.
If you ever have to shoot somebody, kill them! Having spent four tours of duty in south vietnam in army Ranger Companies, and time on a PD; that is the humane answer...and the smart one. "I did not shoot this scrote to kill him, I shot center mass to stop his murderous activity, to keep him from harming another citizen or myself".

been there, done that, got the scars to prove it (they weren't handing out T-shirts at that time).

Rich
Sua Sponte

Rick Hodges
02-08-2006, 01:33 PM
I hesitate to jump into the age old debate, but will anyway. I'm a retired lawdog from the Detroit meto area. I served 4 years as a MP and PMI in the army and 25 years as a Peace Officer. I packed a 45 gov't as an MP and a mandated 4" Smith .357 as a new PO. Three stories:

A member of my detachment at Ft Gordon was involved in a foot chase. The ******* being chased fired over his shoulder and hit my friend in the lower abdomen with a 45 hardball round from a range of over 50 yds. (a surprise appendectomy!). Matt was 6'2" and about 230# of muscle and at impact felt no pain but immediate incapacitating numbness, and sagged forward to his knees and was absolutely out of the action. He survived.

In early 1977 my partner and I faced a heavily sedated mental patient armed with a Marlin model 60 .22LR. at a range of about 15-18'. He took 5 solid torso hits from our .357's. 3 Super Vel 110gr. and my two RP 158gr. JHP's. He showed no signs of being hit and managed to get off 3 rounds (to no effect-Thank God!) after those hits before dropping dead.

In 1978, at 3:00am, while checking a neighborhood for a shooting suspect my partner was suprised when the suspect jumped out from between two houses armed with a long gun. My partner dumped a 2 3/4" load of #4 Buck into his chest at a range of about 20 yds. The results were immediate, fatal and devastating.

After my shooting in '77 I was more than a little shook up and had no faith in my duty .357. I had the opportunity to talk with Dr. Werner Spitz ( he was our medical examiner and the author of most of the texts on Forensic Pathology at that time. He assured me that the only way to guarantee immediate incapacitation was to hit the brain box or sever the spinal cord.

As a result of these actions I pushed for and was allowed to carry a .45 gov't when I worked plainclothes from 1980-85 and a Sig P220 .45 in uniform until a change in administration mandated the use of Glocks in 40 S&W from '92 until I retired in 2000. While carrying the 40 S&W's with Speer 180 Gold Dot HP's our officers were involved in 4 shootings that I am aware of- this load has performed admirably.

My conclusions from all this is that a handgun, any handgun is a poor substitute for a rifle or shotgun. Handguns have marginal power, can't deal very effectively with body armor, and are hard to manage accurately. Their saving grace is that they are easy to carry and they free your hands for other purposes. They are always with you. They should be used to fight your way to your long gun.

I view the change back to the .45 as a positive. The large caliber bullet at speeds nearing 1000fps. is as effective as one can expect. I find the recoil to be milder than either the .357 or 40 S&W. Trooper Bret, I'm with you---If you can't handle it get out of the business---but then we both know of many who can't handle anything, much less a firearm and they will be with us always.

Thanks for letting me rant a little.

Rick

robertbank
02-08-2006, 01:39 PM
Excellent post, thanks for sharing.

Stay Safe

mike in co
02-08-2006, 04:57 PM
Handguns have marginal power, can't deal very effectively with body armor, and are hard to manage accurately. Their saving grace is that they are easy to carry and they free your hands for other purposes. They are always with you. They should be used to fight your way to your long gun.


Thanks for letting me rant a little.

Rick

rick,
i really only disagree with the accurately statement. like all things it takes practice, practice cost time and money and as we all know politically correct asses will not allow that.
i do not see hand guns as inaccurate......

9.3X62AL
02-08-2006, 05:17 PM
Rick--

Very well-spoken and succinct, sir.

I share Mike in CO's view that the handgun is not of itself inaccurate--but the operator's skill with it can be greatly effected by situation dynamics, resulting in inaccurate shot distribution. FERVENT agreement with Mike's assessment of training cost issues as perceived by admin pogues.

The 40 S&W rounds we have carried since the caliber was adopted in 1994--Winchester SXT 180's--seem to run neck-and-neck with the 45 ACP (also SXT's, in 230 grain flavor). What effect between the 2 calibers in FMJ would do when compared is not documented well enough to make valid projections, I believe. There is more than anecdotal evidence that the 9mm/M-9 load is lacking in CQB capability, and a body of knowledge exists that 45 ACP in FMJ trim can do effective work. Since the using services aren't willing to use good bullets in 9mm, it's time to re-establish the 45 ACP as the sidearm standard.

Rick Hodges
02-08-2006, 07:41 PM
Gentlemen,

I didn't mean to imply that handguns were inaccurate. The quote was "hard to manage accurately". I firmly believe it is much more difficult to train one to rapidly deliver solid hits under stress with a handgun than with a rifle or shotgun. Moreso as the range increases.

I once met a MSGT who was an instructor with the Us Army Marksmanship team, and a former Olympic shooter to boot. I watched him roll a 2 1/2 gal pail 8 out of 8 times at 200+ yds. in about 15-20 seconds with a 1911 hardball gun. No sir, I sure wouldn't imply that one can't be accurate with a handgun. I'm pretty sure I could accomplish this with a rifle, but no amount of practice would make me confident enough to try this on demand, with a handgun, in front of about 30 skeptical cops.

The point about expanding bullets is well taken. The 40 S&W seems adequate with good bullets. Who knows with hardball? I like my chances with the .45.

Speaking of European police practices. Back in the early eighties we had a West German National Police high-mucky-muck come and visit us for a coulple of weeks. He took one look at our weopons and targets and turned green around the gills. He was horrified that we fired center of mass and used such powerful handguns. It seems they were still trying to hit suspects in the arms and legs to "disable" them. We showed him triple tap drills and I thought he was going to pass out. I really think they view handguns more as badges of authority than practical tools.

Rick

sundog
02-08-2006, 08:00 PM
Rick, I have no idea if it's still in vogue, but years ago I was introduced to the DeLosier (sp?) technique of single tap first, double other and return to first. Always seemed to me to be an effective procedure.

The M9 does NOT (left out the 'not' and had to edit0 readily lend itself to tuning like the 1911 did, but it can be done, but expensive. Why not just get a 1911, and be done with it.

I don't premember his name, but a MSG at the USAMU figured out a good fix to the M9 that included rail upgragrades and barrel seating screws in the receiver along with bbl bushing and sight upgrades. Awful lot to get it to shoot, but a USAR SGT won triple crown at Perry a few years back with a tweaked out M9.

I'll take my 1911. Anyday. sundog


edited: ooopps, I meant to say the M9 does NOT readily lend itself to tuning.... Sorry 'bout that....

sundog
02-08-2006, 08:11 PM
I've got another thought on this. I have a female family member who went to the sand box last year (you think the 'sand box' comment is insensitive? you should hear some of the other things I have say) and I worked with her with a 92FS for several days before she went back after leave and had to go qualify. Good thing I worked with her. As far as I'm concerned the M9 is not a good personal defense weapon. It was introduced while I was still on active duty, and I DON'T LIKE IT. Any requirements that the U.S. has had placed on it by treaty or charter, or whatever is BS when it comes to personal (and offensive) use of sidearms. Think I don't have an opinion on this one, think again! sundog

Rick Hodges
02-08-2006, 08:57 PM
Sundog,

Our triple tap drill consists of one to center mass, one to forehead, one between pelvic bones. Idea is to defeat body armor.

Rick

sundog
02-08-2006, 10:54 PM
Had to edit my previous post. The M9 does NOT lend itself to tuning. Not like a good 1911, anyway. Do a google for 'M9 accurizing' and see what you come up with. Too complicated and not all that well supported. Are there other platforms other than 1911 that work? Yea, as long as it's a .45. A .45 is a .45 is a .45.

Rick, are the troops being trained triple tap? That would be fine if they could handle it. That's alot of extra rounds to fire. You wanna defeat body armor. Shoot head shots. A shot to center mass is gonna go right for the body armor. Wasted shot, wasted time. sundog

nighthunter
02-14-2006, 08:52 PM
When we talk about hunting we say to put a big hole in the animal and go for complete penetration. I don't think there should be a whole lot more questions when the animal is a terrorist. Especially when the animal is capable of shooting back. I say go back to the 45 ACP and let the enemy let us know what they think. Years ago I read a story about an American GI that was face to face with a German soldier. The German soldier shot the American soldier first with his 9 MM. The American shot the German second with his 45 and carried the 9 MM home as a souvineer. The 45 ACP can't be fairly compared with the 9 MM. Not in penetration or in wound capabilities. There is a reason that the 45 was our side arm for so many years. It worked. It still works. It will continue to work. Even if the 45 doesn't penetrate the body armor I think it will incapacitate till other needed action is taken.
I have recently been in Europe and South America. The " Policia " there regularly carry riot shotguns and sub machineguns. They are not people to antagonize. They have a job to do and they will do it. Times have changed and they have adopted to the times. We need to adopt to what is best for our military.
Nighthunter

floodgate
02-15-2006, 12:37 AM
Nighthunter, etc.:

Reminds me of a story, from one of ol' Elmer's books, I think. A black cowpuncher was sent to town to sell and collect on the stock from a cattle drive. An overzealous cop or marshal spotted him coming out of the agency with a wad of cash, and decided he had just robbed them; shot him several times with his new .30 Luger (THE "hot item" in the West just after 1900). The black gentleman said, "Is you ALL through, white boy?" and center-punched him with his .45 Colt.

floodgate

Four Fingers of Death
02-15-2006, 04:38 AM
Gentlemen,

I didn't mean to imply that handguns were inaccurate. The quote was "hard to manage accurately". I firmly believe it is much more difficult to train one to rapidly deliver solid hits under stress with a handgun than with a rifle or shotgun. Moreso as the range increases.

I once met a MSGT who was an instructor with the Us Army Marksmanship team, and a former Olympic shooter to boot. I watched him roll a 2 1/2 gal pail 8 out of 8 times at 200+ yds. in about 15-20 seconds with a 1911 hardball gun. No sir, I sure wouldn't imply that one can't be accurate with a handgun. I'm pretty sure I could accomplish this with a rifle, but no amount of practice would make me confident enough to try this on demand, with a handgun, in front of about 30 skeptical cops.

The point about expanding bullets is well taken. The 40 S&W seems adequate with good bullets. Who knows with hardball? I like my chances with the .45.

Speaking of European police practices. Back in the early eighties we had a West German National Police high-mucky-muck come and visit us for a coulple of weeks. He took one look at our weopons and targets and turned green around the gills. He was horrified that we fired center of mass and used such powerful handguns. It seems they were still trying to hit suspects in the arms and legs to "disable" them. We showed him triple tap drills and I thought he was going to pass out. I really think they view handguns more as badges of authority than practical tools.

Rick

Subguns when things get nasty. I would be happy with 32 on my belt as a last ditch gun if I was carrying a subgun with a few spare mags.

Four Fingers of Death
02-15-2006, 04:43 AM
Most practice is taken at a range with hearing protection, eye protection, yarda, yarda, yarda. When things get nasty, imagine a full power 125Gn HP 357mag fired inside a room. I love my pistols, both revolvers and autos, but I would not be interested in just carrying one of them without an 870 or a carbine as my main bit of gear.

robertbank
02-15-2006, 10:24 AM
I can appreciate the emotional argument backed up by "War stories" of Herculian levels with the .45acp but the US logic sometimes escapes me. Nato switches to the .308 cartridge back in the early 50's. Life is good. Then we make the switch to the .223 (Lighter, faster, higher round counts, flat shooting etc). Ammo compatability makes the move sensible.

All of the above are attributes of the 9MM. Somehow it all gets twisted around after the move and somehow it is the Euros "fault" that the US switched to the 9MM and really the .45acp is the best pistol cartridge. Heavier, bigger, less rounds but they aren't necessary because the .45acp is a death ray capable of knocking down the enemy **** over tea kettle.

I now here on some sites the 223 is in trouble and what we really need is a heavier bullet for combat.

Appears to me there is more at play here than meets the eye. I am not so sure what the military enjoys more , playing with their toys or buying new ones.

Personally I do like the .45acp but then I am 61 and do not see myself humping a 80 lb pack with rifle and ammo in hand over hill and dale chasing the latest desiginated bad guy. I think the Kingston Trio got it right with the line "They are rioting in Africa, there is strife in Iran...." Not much has changed in 50 years except the bad guy's name. Huxley definately got it right.

Stay Safe

danski26
02-15-2006, 02:03 PM
The people with a choice in the military, special forces, choose the 1911 as there side arm "most of the time". When I was on my med float in 1996 the squeals and recon guys mostly carried the 1911. (not stock pistols)

These people are the experts on combat. I will belive them when they say the 1911 in 45acp is the best weapon for them to get the job done.

robertbank
02-15-2006, 02:10 PM
Don't they carry rifles/sub guns?

The 1911 isn't comming back to general use in anyones army anytime soon. Besides there are better options now then there were in 1911. Will be interesting that is for sure. On a purely personal note I hope you folks go to the .45acp. Certainly will bring down the cost of ammo.

Stay Safe

StarMetal
02-15-2006, 02:19 PM
I heard those guys carried Sigs in 45acp. I don't see where anything today is much of an improvement over the 1911. Higher capacity and better ergonomics is what they will say. Still a tilting barrel lockup as designed by Browning except for the Beretta family. Yeah they intergrated the link into the cam lug on the barrel . That can be done to a 1911 so can double action like Para Ordnance light action. Then they could do away with the stupid grip safety. The 1911 is still a good gun into todays modern warfare.

Watch, they'll go to something stupid like a 40 S&W. If they are going to do that they might as well go to the 10mm and get the job done better.

Joe

robertbank
02-15-2006, 02:49 PM
Now Joe with females in the military the 10MM is out, to much recoil, the 40 is hard on the hearing and the 1911 just weighs to much. Probably go with a .380 to satisfy the lowest common denominator. LOL.

The Sig is a good design as is the H&K. Our Navy boarding parties are using the Sig from what I understand in 9MM. Our Commandos use what they want and god only knows what that is. What they do and where they go is not public knowledge though I understand they are still in Afganistan and I have heard rumours they have been in Iraq but I am not sure of that. The Government does not even annouce casualties from that group.

If you change from a link pin to a fixed lug like the Browning/CZ/Sig use then you really just have a flat sided gun that looks like a 1911 do you not.

Stay Safe

waksupi
02-15-2006, 08:58 PM
I have a friend that is a great proponent of the 9mm, and extolls it's penetration virtues. I tell him it isn't as good as a .45 ACP. He then starts tugging at various parts of his clothing, showing me where he was stitched with a 9mm submachine gun. I asked him, if it's so damn good, how come he isn't dead? Still waiting for the answer to that one!

Slowpoke
02-15-2006, 11:26 PM
I have a friend that is a great proponent of the 9mm, and extolls it's penetration virtues. I tell him it isn't as good as a .45 ACP. He then starts tugging at various parts of his clothing, showing me where he was stitched with a 9mm submachine gun. I asked him, if it's so damn good, how come he isn't dead? Still waiting for the answer to that one!


IM no fan of the 9 mm but I remember my brother telling me how he seen his Sgt. take 18 rounds of 45 acp from his ankle to his shoulder all on his right side at around ten yards out of a Tommy gun in Nam and live.

Good luck

StarMetal
02-15-2006, 11:40 PM
I have a Vietnam veteran friend that was shot behind the left ear, low on the skull from just about point blank range with a 45acp and he's still around and probably can kick most our asses.

Joe

redneckdan
02-16-2006, 12:36 AM
i think it all comes down to the fact that wound ballistics is a crap shoot, some get lucky and some don't...

robertbank
02-16-2006, 12:59 AM
Only two ways you are going to die from a gunshot. Blood loss ie cut blood vessels or trauma to the nervous system brain or spinal column. Bullet that misses on both counts is just a pain and from what I have read on FBI website not much of that either. Handguns are anything but Death Rays, poor substitute for a rifle. It is one thing to be surprised and need a nadgun for self defense, quite another to go into a gun fight armed only with a handgun. Stuff of movie me thinks.

Stay Safe

Four Fingers of Death
02-16-2006, 03:15 AM
The fact that 1911s generally lend themselves to tuning more than other guns could also be written as the 1911s generally need a bit of tuning before they perform as well as other guns straight out of the box.

StarMetal
02-16-2006, 11:32 AM
Dunno Mick,

The tuning you speak of generally are in the trigger, slide to frame fit, barrel and bushing fit, and target sights. All those, except for the trigger, tight up fit tolerances....all which have no place on a battefield., including a match trigger and target sights. I made to spec 1911 is just fine out of the box. Now if they are going to shoot specialized ammunition the maybe a little feed ramp work in is order. Most the bad stories you heard about the U.S. military's 1911's were about pistols that were basically totally worn out.

Joe

robertbank
02-16-2006, 11:45 AM
Seems to me you either get a trouble free 1911 NIB or one that goes back to the factory for fixing. Four of my uncles spent the better part of five years chasing jerries over Africa, Italy and Europe and never fired their pistols once in action. Waived them a few times taking prisnors back to the rear but nary a shot fired. Rifles, yup pistols nope.

Nice to hear the old war stories and I guess they do tug at the patriotic heart. Suspect if I head to hump 80 -90 pounds around the Afgan hillsides dropping a 40 oz pistol along with ammo into the mix might not be quite as well received as a pistol weighing half as much or better yet no pistol at all. You can bet what ever the decision is the boards will be alive with the sound of clicking.

My bet is a plastic .45acp but I wouln't put much money on it either way.

Stay Safe

NVcurmudgeon
02-16-2006, 08:34 PM
Call me macho-challenged, but I have found a good use for the 9mm, as a CCW pistol. I don't like a full power .45 in a compact 1911 clone. I love the .45 in a full size 1911, or a Commander, or the SIG that is Commander size and weight. When I get down to the compact 1911 clones, the 9mm is a lot more controllable in my medium glove size hand. But in a winter coat, make mine Gold Cup!

Wayne Dobbs
02-17-2006, 03:38 AM
I've been seeing this thread for weeks and have studiously avoided looking at it. However, it's my day off here in Baghdad and so I have been sucked in!

As usual on the "ErrorNet", this thread has lots of misinformation, poorly informed opinions, outright crap and some small nuggets of truth.

My background is that I'm a retired Dallas area LEO (25 years with all the usual LE credentials, experiences, etc.) and a firearms trainer for 26 years. I've been shooting since I was too small to hold the .22 and simply pulled the trigger while my Dad held the rifle. I've gone through S&W revolvers, 1911s, Glocks and Berettas as service guns and have trained all those and more in dozens of classes, hundreds of shooters and Lord knows how many thousands of rounds downrange. I've been shot at, investigated officer involved shootings and had my life saved by a 1911. During my career, I saw excellent results from .38 RNL, 9mm FMJ, .357 Magnum JHP, .38 +P LHP and I saw horrible incapacitation results from the .357 JHP, .38 +P JHP and the .45 ACP (seven body hits on two teen aged girls, BTW). I'm here in Baghdad training Iraqi Police in firearms (Glock 19 and AK-47) and interact with the IPs and the military constantly. Over here I've been shot at some MORE and blown up once. Here's my take:

1. The military is NOT going to abandon the M9 or the 9 x 19 round. That .45 pistol project is a future planning op only and once you see the labryninth of military procurement and the politics and skullduggery surrounding same, it will be a minor miracle if another .45 pistol appears for GENERAL issue in the next 10 years. Special Ops types do use a few .45s over here, but most of the SF teams I've seen are carrying the M9 and a few have Glock 19s.
2. The pistol is not a high priority in military circles and therefore receives little attention in the training and equipping scheme of things. Because of that, you see little or NO training with the weapon. I've seen the Army (regular line troops, not SF types) shooting their M9s here and it's tragically hilarious. Their average level of skill is fair to non-existant and the methods of employment taught have NO application to typical CQB situations. Therefore, when you have poorly trained, incompetent shooters thrust into a situation where the pistol is required, you will have few hits and poor results. Kinda' like giving an 8 year old the keys to a police car and wondering why it's totalled, huh?
3. The M9 is overly complex (~90 parts!) and is equipped over here with really trashy low bid Checkmate magazines, which have underpowered magazine springs and a Parkerized INTERIOR surface. When you add in the constant dust with that high friction surface and an underpowered spring, you get LOTS of malfunctions. The gun is also needful of lubrication on the articulating surfaces to run well and that attracts more dust. Overall, it's a poor choice of a fighting pistol from a funtional and ergonomic standpoint. I have monster hands and I have to work really hard to maintain a high level of competence with the DA trigger and the huge grip dimensions on the M9 I'm forced to carry.
4. As much as I love 1911s, I've not seen a large sample of them work reliably enough to trust them AS ISSUED. I know that bunches of folks will jump up and say that THEIR 1911 is the cat's ass from a reliability standpoint, but whenever I see 99% of those guns in action, I see a 2-15% malfunction rate, mostly due to poorly maintained/configured extractors and magazines that are sub-quality or worn out. That's not acceptable for a gun you need to save your life with. The 1911 is great if you want to maintain, tinker, tweak, love and slave over it all the time and it will work well if given LOTS of attention. Soldiers and cops don't do that and therefore need a pistol that will run given a harsh environment and less than optimum maintenance.
5. Ammunition effectiveness. Let's have a real world terminal ballistics lesson here. Round nosed PISTOL bullets do NOT make full caliber holes in people, critters or other animate tissue and all you guys that are cast boolit hunters know that. In flesh, RN projectiles make a hole about 60% of the bullet's diameter unless some type of significant deformation or yawing takes place. So, sports fans, we have a .21 caliber hole (9mm) or a .27 hole (.45). That's NOT enough difference to spend the bandwidth arguing over it and in the REAL world, given EQUAL shot placement, isn't going to be discernable in terms of enemy incapacitation results. The military, and most of the world's police, aren't going to abandon FMJ ammo for pistols in favor of the latest and greatest expanding projectiles. What appears to be needed in both rounds is, you've guessed it....MEPLATS. We talk about it on the rest of the forum as a requirement for a game killing boolit and we desperately need good sized meplats on service pistol rounds.

Since pistols of the service variety suck for shooting dangerous adversaries (anything will work on the wimp shootees), we therefore need the following:

1. Excellent, real world, situationally related training on an on-going basis.
2. Ergonomically designed, simple, rugged, compact pistols that are easily operated and carried.
3. Ammunition that has excellent functional reliability and flat nosed projectiles.

Is that a .45 or a 9mm or a .40 or a .45 GAP? Doesn't matter...it needs to be shootable for all and trained with. Remember this mantra: Pistols suck for shooting really bad guys!

Wayne

9.3X62AL
02-17-2006, 12:17 PM
Well said, Wayne!

quasi
02-17-2006, 08:04 PM
i'll open my self up to some nice flames...
( i like em all)
but

why is it the 3/4 of the world's police and mil shoot 9mm or less, but we, the us of a, think the only gun is a 45acp ??

( i like going to a modern 45...the 45gap)...all those beratta frames with a new slide ??)

seennnnnnddddd me your thougths

Probably because Americans actually shoot people in self defense and otherwise, and most other countries the people don't have the opurtunity. Most militarys and police forces use their handguns for execution type shooting only.

I don't think Canada's armed forces have used their weapons since the Korean war . What is the issue handgun of Canadian armed forces? The Browning-Inglis hp made during ww2.

robertbank
02-17-2006, 08:37 PM
We have lost over 1,500 men providing "peacekeeping" services for the UN since the Korean war. You would be wrong if you think for a minute they have not used their guns. Right now there are 2,000 over in Afganistan enjoying the sunshine and sand. Losses there stand at 8 I think. You should know that considering where you live.

The reason the Hi-Powers are still in use is that we had over 50,000 of them NIB at the end of WW11 and the pistol is not exactly a front line weapon.

Americans actually shoot people in self-defense because they have to. Not sure how proud I would be of that.

The Phillipine Polce use Norinco 1911's. Most of the Euros carry sub-guns when the need arises. The pistol, even the vaunted 1911 is a poor excuse for a rifle or shotgun. Pistols are not death rays and on balance are pretty anemic at that good for close ranges when nothing else is available.

Most militarys and police forces use their handguns for execution type shooting only

What? Where did that come from? Have you any information to back that up? Would be interested to know which ones?

I have a friend who was a Canadian sniper serving with the UN on one of the "Peace Keeping" details during the Belgium Congo operation in the early 60's. He carried one to use on himself if he was caught. Machettes were his other option and he figured a 9MM in the head was a better option.

Stay Safe

sundog
02-17-2006, 08:55 PM
Robert said, "Americans actually shoot people in self-defense because they have to. Not sure how proud I would be of that."

Well, I for one am proud of it. It has to do with the souverenty (sp? there's an 'i' in there somwhere) of one's life as given by GOD.

And my personal response to that is, "So what, I was defending myself." My life is a gift from GOD and not to be taken away by a murderer. Same for my family.

Robert, if anyone was about to kill you or a family member, rape a female family member, maime, burn your property..., what would you do? Lethal force IS a viable option. Number one priority is to NEUTRALIZE the situation, and that includes lethat force. If you HAVE to apply lethal force, worry about it later. sundog

sundog
02-17-2006, 09:03 PM
btw, you can add injuring a child to that list. Leave the kids alone. And the old folks. sundog

NVcurmudgeon
02-17-2006, 09:06 PM
Robert, the contributions of Canadian forces are almost unknown here, but appreciated by the few Americans that have heard. Korea, Tehran, Afghanistan, and other less-known Third Word pest holes: thanks Canada.

StarMetal
02-17-2006, 09:23 PM
Everyone always judges the U.S. by how many people get shot here in crimes. By everyone I mean OTHER COUNTRIES. Once on a chat program a young Jewish fellow said he would never come to the U.S. because he's afraid of getting shot and all the crime we have. Geez..I guess he must be immune to suicide bombers and other Middle East wackos running around in his country killing people. Anyways..compare the population of Israel and other European countries that look down their noses at the VIOLENT U.S. and you'll see it's MUCH lower then ours, which means you're going to have more things happen in a higher populated country.

I've heard that alot of Canadians refer to the U.S. as Southern Canada and it was taught that in school. Is that true? If the U.S. is such a violent crime ridden country how come people from all over the world are trying to get in it? Fact is this is the best damn country in the world to live in...that's why. I guess after the anti-gunners succeed and in disarming us you could call us Southern Canada.

Sorry about the rant on the U.S. and Canada...but remember our old flag??? The one with the snake and it said "Don't Treat On Me".

On a more pleasant note I personally think the Canadians are armed quite well with those old new Browning, just a good as anyone else and perhaps even better.

Joe

robertbank
02-17-2006, 09:35 PM
We have the right to self defense as you do. The fact that it occurs once in awhile in the States and likely more than up here is more a function of population numbers and the fact you have more large cities where like ours, most of your crime is committed.

Shooting fellow citizens or having the need to is not what I or you would mark as a plus in our societies and the fact that it happens occasionally is not something either of us would be happy about. Any event that requires us take another's life is not deemed by me or I suspect you as a success story for our communities we live in. Hence my comment.

NVcurmudgeon - we, like your country, try to do our part in keeping this old world from destroying itself with mixed results I am afraid. Fact of life I guess, nothing has changed much since I was a kid. Different bad guys, different good guys and young men dieing for the worst of reasons. No glory in it, just a job that seems to frequently have to be done. Remember the song "They are rioting in Africa there is strife in IRan" song by the Knigston Trio. What's changed?

When I was a youg man I figured out that young men die because old men screw up and when they do, they send young men off to fix things. Now I am in my early sixties I see it happening all over again.

Ah well maybe my sons will see a change over their lifetime, I certainly hope so but would not bet on it either.

We came all to close in October of '62 or was it'63. Glad we had Kennedy on the trigger during the Cuban deal or none of us might be here to think about it.

Stay Safe

robertbank
02-17-2006, 09:50 PM
I've heard that alot of Canadians refer to the U.S. as Southern Canada and it was taught that in school. Is that true? If the U.S. is such a violent crime ridden country how come people from all over the world are trying to get in it? Fact is this is the best damn country in the world to live in...that's why. I guess after the anti-gunners succeed and in disarming us you could call us Southern Canada.

Nope I have never ever heard the US as being described as Southern Canada. Not in 61 years.

Most of the world you are talking about is the third world and they are trying to get in here too. The U.S. is a very nice country and I am glad you feel the way you do, you should. There are a number of countries that are pretty nice as well, with very high standards of living. Being a Canadian I happen to think this country ranks right up there on top but that said I am sure Australians think that of there country too. Spent sometime in Scotland and I could easily live there as well. Good countries and good folks in a lot of different places. The U.S. happens to be one of them as well. Arizona or Texas this time of year have a certain appeal right now. Ah well the golf and fishing season is right around the corner and it is well past the time to be putting a hook into a 50 lb salmon.

Peace and Stay Safe

StarMetal
02-17-2006, 09:52 PM
Robert,

You're certainly right about the Cuban crisis, it came down to seconds of the world being annilated. That Russian sub Captain thought that the world might end and he was hesitant to push that fire button. Thank God he had a heart concencious.

Joe

robertbank
02-17-2006, 09:59 PM
Yes Joe and now we find out the Russians had tactical nuclear weapons in Cuba at the time. Can you imagine had Kennedy sent in an invasion force.

On a lighter note here is a view from my backyard.

StarMetal
02-17-2006, 10:09 PM
Robert,

That's not the part that got scarey . We suspected the Russian had a nuke sub in the area. What we didn't know at the time is that they had three. Well the captains of the subs were given strict orders to remain submerged and no radio contact with Russia. Happens to be one of the subs was detected by the U.S. Navy. It couldn't lose our Navy and it got down to where the Navy ordered the sub to surface or be blown out of the water. The captain of the sub didn't know what was going on in world as he hadn't had contact with Russia for a very long time, so the scenario that he said went thru his head was there was a nuclear war after all that that Russian might have been totally destroyed and that his sub and it's missiles could still take out the U.S. He decided to surface...but then that situation got tense too because the U.S. Navy ships had their guns trained on him. He still didn't fire the missiles...they were armed, were ready to go, all it took was his command "fire". We've talk to this captain...when the Soviet Union dissolved alot of stuff come out. I believe a story about what I've told you was on the History Channel. We come close, not with hitting Cuba, but with this one sub. After the sub incident was over...Russia pulled everything out of Cuba and left us alone. Khruschev said he was impressed by our new young president, that he stood up to Russia's bluff. I can think of some other Presidents we have that could have really screwed things up.

By the way beautiful view you have from your backyard. There's no lying, Canada is beautiful.

Hey when you have more then one moose, what do you call them? Mooses or Meese? hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Joe

robertbank
02-17-2006, 10:35 PM
A friggin bunch of moose!

I remember going to bed one night October remembering what my Chemistry said, "No homework tonight hope to see you in the morning".

That was the day Kennedy said you either turn back or else....to the Russian cargo ships. Man you only have to live through that once to understand the insanity of it all. Remember all the talk about surviving a nuclear war. For what? I suspect that was to convince the population that it all somehow made sense. My cousin in LA was taught to "duck and cover". We laugh about it now. Would have made an interesting descovery for some archeologists a couple thousand years from now. "H'mmm must have been a church of some kind" What with all the bodies in a kneeling position. LOL

Not so sure we aren't some of the same talk again.

Stay Safe

StarMetal
02-17-2006, 11:25 PM
Robert,

My best friends dad was part of the Marines that occupied Japan in WWII. He was at where the bomb was dropped and told me of this concrete wall that survived, but apparently people had be along side it because he said there were black silhouettes of their bodies burned into the wall like a negative of a photograph he said. Wow!!

Yeah the only ones that would survive are the nuke subs deep under the sea...and like you said..for what.

Joe

waksupi
02-18-2006, 01:28 AM
Being a student of history, and in particular, of North America, I can say that Canada has produced some of the most effective fighting men the world has ever seen. I'm glad they aren't pissed off at us. Dealing with the Canucks, on a bad basis, could be pretty dangerous to one's health. The last conflict I can think of involving American troops in battle on Canadian soil, was on the Plains of Abraham, and I believe the fight was against the English at the time, or was it the French? I'm a bit rusty on this point of history.

For that matter, that is something else that bothers me. The US is thought of as America, Canada is thought of as Canada. We are both, America. Look at a map.

For history lovers, do a search on Rupert's Land. You will see we were indeed, a part of Canada, from an old Hudson's Bay grant. Area basically covered from the Rocky Mountains, to the headwaters of the Mississippi, to the Black Hill, if I recollect correct

robertbank
02-18-2006, 01:44 AM
Think the last time was around 1812. You folks burned down Toronto (wish you had buried it while you wewre at it) and we (Brits and Cdn Militia burned Washington in return. KInd of tit for tat. LOL since then we, we kind of settled down inter-married and try our best to all get along.

If you want to see what happens to our common enemies when you combine our forces look up the history of the Devil's Brigade. NOw there was a crew of men. I understand when the Canadians were eventually withdrawn for work in other areas in N.W. Europe and broke ranks and left their final joint parade the American troops did not close ranks leaving the spaces occupied by their comrades vacant as a sign of the bond between the men. War has a way of binding men, should make people proud on both sides of the border.

Probably won't happen in my life time but eventually the 49th will disappear. We got two of the best parts of this planet kind of sown up,

When you read about spats between our two governments on trade issues and the like just remember it is just the idiots we elect in Ottawa and Washington having a tantrum. The rest of us seem to get along just fine. The way neighbours should.

Stay Safe

carpetman
02-18-2006, 01:49 AM
Yea Joe I heard about the flag that said "don't treat on me". Think it was a halloween flag.