50 state AR15 pump action kit

[johnsonian09]

50 state AR handguard

It’s a free floating pump action hand-guard that fits on most AR15 uppers.

Quiet operation for suppressed applications or mouse fart hand loads.

No state bans pump actions so it gets around AWB’s and hunting restrictions.

It’s on printables and is sailing. But here’s a direct link here too

On the sea there is a short video about it.

I’m including the v1 files and the v2 in this download. But I recommend using the one named heatshieldrailvented+square-ish+grip and pic rail end. With the small end piece to cap it off.


https://drive.proton.me/urls/RPRX1E8D0G#RY2lSMVnM7lZ

https://www.printables.com/model/963338-v2-pump-action-armalite-conversion

https://odysee.com/@Malic:e

https://odysee.com/@Malic:e/v2-pump-action-armalite-conversion-model_files:2


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[Hamish]

It still won’t pass Illinois’ ban due to cartridge capacity.

My state is more jacked up than commiefornia.

[johnsonian09]

Hamish, your talking about the Illinois magazine ban correct?


Pursuant to 720 ILCS 5/24-1.9, an “assault weapon” does not include a firearm that is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action, unless the firearm is a shotgun with a revolving cylinder. This is true even if, as manufactured, the bolt, pump, lever, or slide action firearm has features that if removed would constitute assault weapon attachments.

https://isp.illinois.gov/Home/AssaultWeapons

10 round mags are safe for rifle builds

15 round mags are safe if you build a pistol.


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[Hamish]

It will take 30 round mags, that the “mentally challenged” term “high capacity” instead of “ standard capacity”.

No bueno in Pricksterville.

[johnsonian09]

I agree the bans are dumb. However there’s a lot of guns that use AR mags. And that states legislation carves out an exemption specifically for manual guns.

Do they still sell detachable mag bolt guns at your local cabelas? Or other gun store


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[johnsonian09]

Here you go Hamish. I just asked the isp foid department.

It’s legal according to ISP. If you already have registered mags u might be able to use them.

But if you don’t a pump action that uses stanag/ ar mags is fine as long as it’s not “high cap”

It’s a high cap itself that’s ur issue

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240809/2a6ef9e7502cdd9e350a77c71312e786.jpg
N


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[armoredman]

I remember seeing pump action AKs years ago, didn't sell well here, but I understand they were popular in Cali at one time. Good luck with your product sir, hope it works out for you.

[johnsonian09]

It’s not something I’m selling. But something I’m giving away for people to try/not need to register their rifles over unconstitutional bans.

It’s like an alternative kali-key. Just instead of a custom bcg, it’s a handguard. It’s similar to the idea of a Troy PAR. Just the Troy uses all proprietary bcg/ custom lower. And Mine works with all standard AR parts.

You can make about 5 of my hand guards for the cost of a kali-key so if you have a printer already and a few guns to do to skip out on registering then why not?

Plus I think a pump is just better utility/faster than a straight pull bolt action. But that’s just user training/preference. Personally, I don’t like having to take my cheek off the stock to charge the gun again.

If/when scotus overturns semi auto bans my design will be largely irrelevant unless you just want to run suppressed in something like 300 black out and kill the sound of the action too. But that’s kinda a rare use case outside of an AWB.


Another thing that I’m working on is a printable bolt carrier that would work with this.

As long as the bolt itself is metal it’s basically locked in under firing. It’s interesting to see if the only metal parts needed in the future could be bolt, barrel, barrel nut and a LPK.

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[elmacgyver0]

It looks like a good solution for states with power crazed politicians like Illinois.
Unless of course you run into "That Guy" LEO that says "I don't care if it's legal, that's against the law!".

[johnsonian09]

It looks like a good solution for states with power crazed politicians like Illinois.
Unless of course you run into "That Guy" LEO that says "I don't care if it's legal, that's against the law!".

That sounds like a good way to make money off a dumb officer.

Jokes aside, there aren’t any states that ban pump action + detachable box magazines. Only the semi autos. I ran this by my states SLFU and they said it sounds legit to them.

If I see enough people using/downloading/etc. maybe il shell out the cash for a legal opinion letter just so people can print it up and reference it in court to CYA. But rn I only know of 3 ppl personally that have actually made it.


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[schutzen-jager]

pistol grip, threaded muzzle, collapse able stock, bayonet lug, + certain trigger + seat parts would still make it an assault rifle in N.J. even if used with 10 round magazines regard less of action types -

[johnsonian09]

pistol grip, threaded muzzle, collapse able stock, bayonet lug, + certain trigger + seat parts would still make it an assault rifle in N.J. even if used with 10 round magazines regard less of action types -

That looks to be incorrect info, however if you find a law on the books of NJ that says otherwise please link it here? This is from the NJ gov site definition of assault weapons in NJ

A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be "substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:

A. semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:
a folding or telescoping stock;
a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
a bayonet mount;
a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
a grenade launcher;
B. a semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:
an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;
manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and
a semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm; and,
C. a semi-automatic shotgun that has at least 2 of the following:

a folding or telescoping stock;
a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
an ability to accept a detachable magazine.


https://nj.gov/lps/dcj/agguide/assltf.htm


The way The ban is written in most states is “semi auto? If yes then add evil features= assault weapon”

“ semi auto? If no then we don’t care to talk about them”

Which is why I bet you can walk into a cabelas or other gun store rn and buy a bolt action with an adjustable/prs stock, pistol grip, mlok handguard, threaded barrel, etc.


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[schutzen-jager]

N.J assault weapons also apply to non semi autos - IE. strikers + firearms such as strikers with
double action revolving cylinders - like + similar clause subject to broad interpretation here - 2c39 does not include all regulations, some are contained in 2c58 also - check with NJSP firearms unit + state AG office for written determination -

An assault firearm in New Jersey is defined as any firearm manufactured under any designation which is substantially identical to any of the firearms listed under 2C: 30-lw (2).\\

On August 19, 1996, the New Jersey State Attorney General issued guidelines regarding the "Substantially Identical" provision in the State's assault firearms laws, N.J.S. 2C:39-1w(2). These guidelines define, in addition to the firearms specifically enumerated as assault firearms in N.J.S. 2C:39-1w(1), those firearms which are manufactured under any designation which are also classified as assault firearms.

[Harter66]

I love how a guy comes in with a positive , this is pretty cool , option for restricted states , which by the by has been an option in Europe for 20+ years , and every resident of any place it might benefit jumps in with 11 examples of why they personally don't want to risk it .

Seems to me a side charger without a gas port makes an AR a straight pull bolt action.
Fixed stock isn't hard to find and it can be had with wood accents.
There's a California compliance that makes the magazine fixed complete with a 5 rd flush magazine .

Ever the optimist . I know a guy that converted a 45 Colts lightning to a 45 ACP with 16 rounds ........
If you load 9×25 rimmed at 38 special flush WC OAL 14 rd fit in a 10 rd 357 mag 1894 Marlin, wanted for 13+1 otherwise it jammed the 3rd round .
I would expect the same to be true of a 10 round 454 1892 fed 45S&W with the case almost 1/4" shorter 12 should go easy .

Anyone can find 50 ways to make a legal process happen if they want to, finding a way to make it not illegal doing so is a commendable act .

[johnsonian09]

Well striker fired handguns are de facto semi auto.

The DA revolvers? Maybe someone could classify as such because the cocking can be done by trigger or hammer.

Either way, I’m contacting NJSP to see if they can provide some clarification like Illinois did. And they said my version is legal there. I looked if the Troy par-15 is legal in NJ and it appears to be legal. But that info is 3 years out of date so I’d like updated information.

Harter66- Thankyou for your vote of confidence. I’ve spent hundreds of hours on this project after reading the AWBs in the states that have them. (Most of the time is spent prototyping the parts and checking that I have all clearances correct for a variety of rifles/pistols/ common sizes etc)

But I don’t mind people putting my ideas thru the wringer of their local PD. Yes freemen don’t ask permission. And it is a prima facie legal work around. But I am giving this away as a free information. I’m not insulted or hurt by people needing to have their local PD the thumbs up and confirming that how I interpret their laws is correct. Some of us simply have too much to lose on a bogus felony charge.


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[schutzen-jager]

johnsonian09 - the striker referred to in the NJ39C is a shotgun + has absolutely NOTHING to do with any striker fired hand gun - it is one of several non semi autos classed as assault weapons in N.J. which also includes the streetsweeper + all the numerous variants - the revoving mechanism is not classified as semi or full auto -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armsel_Striker -

[Kestrel4k]

Harter66, I couldn't agree more; I have been wanting to post similar sentiments in this thread, but most likely not as eloquently. Sometimes I don't even recognize Americans anymore, it seems like most people refuse to even acknowledge alternate or innovative ideas these days.

[johnsonian09]

johnsonian09 - the striker referred to in the NJ39C is a shotgun + has absolutely NOTHING to do with any striker fired hand gun - it is one of several non semi autos classed as assault weapons in N.J. which also includes the streetsweeper + all the numerous variants - the revoving mechanism is not classified as semi or full auto -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armsel_Striker -

Gotcha, not familiar with the striker, I do know about the street sweeper. Yea revolving shotgun are kind of a rare. I’ve never actually seen one. IIRC they’re considered Destructive devices by atf (?) which is a whole other can of worms. So states banning them is kinda mute. And tbh I’m not that interested in that platform.

I sent NJ police an email, il screen shot it and post it here for you when I get a reply.


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[P Flados]

I have been wanting to try something like this.

FYI, I saw in the video that this requires removal of the gas block and using a sleeve to block off the gas port.

[johnsonian09]

I have been wanting to try something like this.

FYI, for an existing AR, I saw in the video that this require removal of the gas block and using a sleeve to block off the gas port.

This is correct.

In the read me, I also reference x-caliber, a barrel maker that makes portless barrels if u wanted a dedicated barrel

Also depending on push rod u select to use you may need to open up the port on the upper receiver. I did this with a small dental file. I may design a jig to use a drill to make it easier for folks.




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[elmacgyver0]

As I said before, a great idea for people in commie states.

[paknheat]

I’ve been seeing videos posted by hunters in Australia using pump action AR rifles .

They use them for hog & camel culls. Seems like a neat idea to me.


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[johnsonian09]

So most of the pump “AR” s are really close to ars but are not, for example. The Troy PAR uses a proprietary bolt, lower, upper, etc. you can’t just buy a Troy PAR upper and run it on a mil spec ar15. Because the bolt interacts with the lower to create the lock up. And the bolt latch is near the bottom of the magazine well .

Instead of solely interacting with the barrel.. or else everyone in ban states could just order a new upper for their existing rifle and call it a day.

This package contains parts needed to make a AR upper that is pump action and works on a standard ar lower.

The idea isn’t new, just this implementation of it using standard parts is a little newer.

There is one other guy who runs a business doing this out of CT called COMGRAF. ( IIRC)

However you have to send in your upper, it has to be a HBAR barrel. And it’s not free floating. I’ve spoken with him a once or twice trying to get info. And it was about $500+ your donor upper all said and done. I’m not dissing his product as I haven’t actually used it. But his is a machined metal assembly. So it’s surely expensive to get all his components extruded for a specialty item. Which explains the costs.

My design is free floating and simple. Or at least that’s the goal here. And printable. I’m rather happy with it. Especially considering the costs to actually fabricate one https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240812/cca25330f91d2aabb4f0aad08aabcb93.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240812/f7b8c2691da26132c2b2b618a478dfc0.jpg

Anyways if anyone wants to actually built one or needs help building one outside of the instructions in the readme.txt or any videos on odysee feel free to ask. This community has so much info that I’ve benefitted from being able to reference/ask.


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[schutzen-jager]

Gotcha, not familiar with the striker, I do know about the street sweeper. Yea revolving shotgun are kind of a rare. I’ve never actually seen one. IIRC they’re considered Destructive devices by atf (?) which is a whole other can of worms. So states banning them is kinda mute. And tbh I’m not that interested in that platform.

I sent NJ police an email, il screen shot it and post it here for you when I get a reply.


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the destructive device classification is by federal regulation - they were sold for several years before being classified as such - in New Jersey statues they are the second item in list of assault weapons along with their many variants - be aware that any legal determination must come in writing from the N.J attorney generals office - different NJSP officers are known for different opinions on same subject -

[johnsonian09]

So what I’m being told by NJSP officers- ik ik the ag office isn’t exactly an easy to get a response from yet from little old me several states away. I’m working on it

Is saying that my understanding most likely correct, regarding rifles and probably pistols too.

Because part of the definition of substantially identical is semi automatic.

But if the lower used is called out by name in njs c39-1w it’s specifically banned as an aw regardless of if it’s still semi or not. So no Colt ar15 lowers.

N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.2.

“”the following are examples of manufacturer changes that do not alter the essential nature of the firearm: the name or designation of the firearm; the color of the firearm; the material used to make the barrel or stock of the firearm; the material used to make a pistol grip; and a modification of a pistol grip. This is not an exclusive list. A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be "substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria””



https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/title-2c/section-2c-39-1/

“”Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 series””

https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml#:~:text=A%20semiautomatic%20rifle%20wit h%20a,and%20active%20duty%20military%20personnel.


“”What type of firearms are considered assault weapons in New Jersey?

A complete list of banned firearms can be found in N.J.S. 2C:39-1.w as well as N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.2. If a firearm is not specifically listed by name then it may be considered to be substantially identical if it has the following qualities;
A semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:
(1) A folding or telescoping stock;
(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(3) A bayonet mount;
(4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash
suppressor; and
(5) A grenade launcher;
A semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:
(1) An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
(3) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned;
(4) Manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and/or
(5) A semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm; and
A semi-automatic shotgun that has one of the following:
(1) A folding or telescoping stock;
(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(3) A fixed magazine capacity in excess of six rounds;
A semiautomatic rifle with a fixed magazine capacity exceeding 10 rounds.
A firearm that meets the above criteria is considered to be “assault firearm” and may only be possessed by a licensed firearms dealer, active duty law enforcement officers and active duty military personnel.
“Assault firearm” shall not include a semi-automatic rifle which has an attached tubular device and which is capable of operating only with .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.””


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[schutzen-jager]

like i stated previously, the non semi auto shotgun is included in N.J. banned list that i copied + posted here - i also called the NJSP with the conversion question + the response after much study with several troopers was that if it was a banned weapon that was converted but not permanently modified not to accept any of it's original semi auto parts + be converted to the original configuration it would still be none compliant - was advised to contact the state AG in writing for a written determination - copy of current assault list of banned weapons - 2c39c - which shows non semi auto listed - also if the conversion still contains the banned components regardless of action type it would still be prohibited under the overly broad, like + similar clause -

SUBCHAPTER 1. FIREARMS IDENTIFICATION CARD AND PERMIT TO PURCHASE A HANDGUN
13:54-1.1 Firearms purchaser identification cards and permits to purchase handguns
This subchapter prescribes the requirements and procedures for the issuance of firearms purchaser identification cards,
permits to purchase handguns and the general rules for holders of such permits and identification cards.
13:54-1.2 Definitions
The words and terms used in this chapter shall have the following meanings:
"Ammunition" means various projectiles, including bullets, missiles, slugs or balls together with fuses, propelling
charges and primers that may be fired, ejected, projected, released, or emitted from firearms or weapons.
"Antique cannon" means any weapon which satisfies the definition of an antique firearm and which is also capable of
firing a projectile of a caliber greater than .60 caliber, except a shotgun or shotgun ammunition generally recognized as
suitable for sporting purposes.
"Antique firearm" means any firearm which is incapable of being fired or discharged, or which does not fire fixed
ammunition regardless of date of manufacture, or was manufactured before 1898 for which cartridge ammunition is not
commercially available, and is possessed as a curiosity or ornament or for its historical significance or value.
"Assault firearms" means:
1. The following firearms:
Algimec AGM1 type
Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder such as the "Street Sweeper" or "Striker 12"
Armalite AR-180 type
Australian Automatic Arms SAR
Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms
Beretta AR-70 and BM59 semi-automatic firearms
Bushmaster Assault Rifle
Calico M-900 Assault carbine and M-90

[MrWolf]

Folks that don't live in a NY or NJ and a few others just don't comprehend the mentality of these politicians and their disdain for anyone who dares to not bow down to them. From my 56 years of living in Jersey, there is no way they would allow the conversion as it stands. Schutzen-jager has tried to explain but it is very simple. Nope!

[schutzen-jager]

Folks that don't live in a NY or NJ and a few others just don't comprehend the mentality of these politicians and their disdain for anyone who dares to not bow down to them. From my 56 years of living in Jersey, there is no way they would allow the conversion as it stands. Schutzen-jager has tried to explain but it is very simple. Nope!

never tried to say it is simple - but everything stated on this thread are internet opinions that holds no precedent in any court of law - without the manufacturers getting written, binding authorizations from all 50 states claimed the statement is is disputable + subject to correction - personally held a C+R here for 30+ years in the 7 decades i have resided here + have dealt with state + federal regulations on numerous occasions - internet advice is only worth what you pay for it -

[P Flados]

Good discussion on silly NJ restrictions.

My summary of an "evil weapon" style rifle made with standard parts is one that includes three of the following common AR-15 features:

- a detachable magazine
- A folding or telescoping stock
- A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon
- A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor

I think that it is possible to design and make a pump action rifle that should be legal.

The OP has a design that will work with most any upper and rifle barrel combination.

The guy at Comgraf has a design that is less flexible (it requires a specific barrel profile), but it has an advantage in that it couples the slide to the bolt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc8PIOnkgXg

I think I could buy a few parts from Comgraf and print parts using the OP's design to combine the two. I will call this the J09/Comgraf hybrid.

Here is just one option for a NJ Pump using readily available gun parts in combination with 3D printed plastic and hardware store misc parts. Just for reference, if I made one I would call it a NJ-15 Pump.

People are making one piece plastic lowers that include the buttstock. I have a 3D printed lower that works good, but it uses a standard buffer tube. Using the forward portion of a 3D lower model and printing a rear "non-telescoping" stock is possible. With a Comgraf or J09/Comgraf hybrid upper, there is no need for a buffer or buffer spring. Designing the Non-telescoping lower to prevent use of a buffer/buffer spring would make the gun such that it could not be easily converted to a semi auto. Adding a latch or detent to the slide mechanism to hold it full forward would be a good idea.

If you print all of the parts in a OD green, grey or FDE plastic it would not be a "black rifle" which would also magically make it less "evil".

Getting a custom barrel with no threads and no gas port would make it even more solidly "not an AR-15". It would be so easy to make compared to existing product lines, I am betting a Bear Creek or PSA would supply something like this if there even a small stable market.

I thought about the option to just use an existing lower (standard or 3D print) and remove the threaded portion of a barrel. This would be a lot easier, but would be more risky. Since the lower is the "gun" and the lower is "substantially identical" to a prohibited lower, it does not look legal to me. Also note that by simply swapping uppers the gun could be quickly converted to semi auto.

[johnsonian09]

Maybe il see if I can meet up with comgraf. He’s only a few towns over


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[johnsonian09]

Still haven’t gotten a call back from NJDA office, will call again. Called a new gun shops asking if I could order a Troy PAR15, what my design is supposed to simulate. The gentlemen said I can only order it without a threaded barrel and no bayonet lug. But looks positive.


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[schutzen-jager]

Still haven’t gotten a call back from NJDA office, will call again. Called a new gun shops asking if I could order a Troy PAR15, what my design is supposed to simulate. The gentlemen said I can only order it without a threaded barrel and no bayonet lug. But looks positive.


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a phone call or email is never legally binding - only a written request for a legal termination + written response is plus + subject to legislative + executive action to change at any time - your post #29 does not consider the broad like + similar clause that is subject to any interpretation at any time - even federal regulation clearly state that any restricted weapon is always a restricted item no matter what modifications unless receiver is torch cut into three unrepairable pieces or crushed flat beyond recognition + melted down - the receiver is the controlled item + not all related parts

[johnsonian09]

I think you’re being hyper negative to the goal of this project.

I’m not saying you lack experience or are incorrect. Nor am I saying you lack good arguments.

But prima facie a pump action ar pattern rifle should be legal and are actively being sold. Until there are motions made to ban it. As we already know the Troy par15 is legal in some configurations until they take action to change the law yet again. Specifically in NJ.

A legal opinion letter by any lawyer (state by state) should hold enough weight until the change the law to make the opinion invalid.

Notice people running around openly with super safety’s? Because they aren’t machine guns. Federally. HT is not in jail because he did the work to get the legal protections in place preemptively.

If I need to make a jig so people can easily modify the gaskey / bolt to make it the bolt not able to work in a standard upper receiver - that’s okay. This is intended to be a dedicated upper. ( this would be similar to the comgraf bolt)

We are all ready drilling out the upper so if u tried to run it with a gas tube the gas tube will get bent and not run because it wobbles around under recoil w/out the support from the receiver.

We are already blocking the gas port by any means or buying a barrel without one.

If none of the elements that make semi auto work are present there is no case to say it’s semi auto which at present, appears to be the condition that brings in the substantially identical clause. Which summons the other factors into play.

There are other states that may benefit from this project and the final install instructions may end up being different.

Did u download this and actually read the README.txt? Or just judging the project without knowing the specifics? This is a developing thing I’m actively working on. If there is a cure to be found. I will do what I can. Essentially. And sharing this can inspire others to tinker and think outside of the box and maybe create their own solutions that work with the laws that apply to them.

Complaining about the challenges that we need to overcome to achieve a goal has never benefited anyone. I prefer to look at this as a challenge to overcome then tyranny I am subjected to.


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[schutzen-jager]

I think you’re being hyper negative to the goal of this project.

I’m not saying you lack experience or are incorrect. Nor am I saying you lack good arguments.

But prima facie a pump action ar pattern rifle should be legal and are actively being sold. Until there are motions made to ban it. As we already know the Troy par15 is legal in some configurations until they take action to change the law yet again. Specifically in NJ.

A legal opinion letter by any lawyer (state by state) should hold enough weight until the change the law to make the opinion invalid.

Notice people running around openly with super safety’s? Because they aren’t machine guns. Federally. HT is not in jail because he did the work to get the legal protections in place preemptively.

If I need to make a jig so people can easily modify the gaskey / bolt to make it the bolt not able to work in a standard upper receiver - that’s okay. This is intended to be a dedicated upper. ( this would be similar to the comgraf bolt)

We are all ready drilling out the upper so if u tried to run it with a gas tube the gas tube will get bent and not run because it wobbles around under recoil w/out the support from the receiver.

We are already blocking the gas port by any means or buying a barrel without one.

If none of the elements that make semi auto work are present there is no case to say it’s semi auto which at present, appears to be the condition that brings in the substantially identical clause. Which summons the other factors into play.

There are other states that may benefit from this project and the final install instructions may end up being different.

Did u download this and actually read the README.txt? Or just judging the project without knowing the specifics? This is a developing thing I’m actively working on. If there is a cure to be found. I will do what I can. Essentially. And sharing this can inspire others to tinker and think outside of the box and maybe create their own solutions that work with the laws that apply to them.

Complaining about the challenges that we need to overcome to achieve a goal has never benefited anyone. I prefer to look at this as a challenge to overcome then tyranny I am subjected to.


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not at all negative, but being realistic + truthful - everything posted here is opinions + conjecture - it would be extremely gullible for any knowledgeable person living in N.J., MA., WA., MD., CA., + probably others i'm not aware of + certain other local jurisdictions like DC, Chicago, + some others that do not have state preemption laws should think before purchasing the kits with out getting a written, signed letter on official state ag letter head - better safe + legal then getting charged with illegal possession - i will not waste any more of this threads space on this subject - several of the posting on N.J. statues were cherry picked + many important clauses omitted - quote [ i positively know that it is true, because i read it on the internet !!! ]

[ulav8r]

Sounds like New Jersey would require a different receiver that would not work with AR15 uppers or a permanent modification of the lower.

[johnsonian09]

I don’t think the uppers are at issue at all if it’s a pump action.

The issue in NJ is just how different does a design need to be to be, to be not classified as “substantially identical”

I think the law makes it fairly plain that only semi autos are banned and a pump variant with no gas related components should be perfectly fine, and have called a few lawyers to advise/ design a opinion letter.

Jager does not think that getting rid of the semi auto/ gas system components is enough to get away from that definition. Assuming I’m understanding his arguments correctly. And rightly so- doesn’t just take officer opinions as holding weight. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240814/e5e37720c9f21a3a7feea0d53d5938a8.jpg


But if we want to go down another development tree for NJ maybe this could work as a box fed pump. I suppose?


It’s still my handguard at the left.
Someone else modeled the cut down bolt carrier. Just his handguard only works on a printed receiver. Mine works on standard metal uppers but it’s very similar idea.

His is called the apple pie. I forget his name


This lower receiver is actually meant for cmmg 22lr uppers. Notice it has no buffer/ recoil system. It uses most of a Ar LPK and a custom trigger.

With the half bolt technically I shouldn’t need a recoil system as the bolt is locked until you move the pump..


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[barnetmill]

If a certain female wins the Nov 2024 POTUS Election, she has promised to by executive order if needed to banned assault weapons. I then just might be interested in a pump action conversion.

[johnsonian09]

Update- I got to speak with the owner of COMGRAF.

He sells in NY CT CA WA.

His bolt carrier gas key is turned up a few thou to press 3/16 rod into permanently.

Vs my design was turning down the rod to loosely fit in the gas key. (Sockets into)

Sorry NJ


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[schutzen-jager]

i was not going to say more but !!! -quote from johnsian99 in post # 36 [ I think the law makes it fairly plain that only semi autos are banned and a pump variant with no gas related components should be perfectly fine, and have called a few lawyers to advise/ design a opinion letter. ] it was already proved in actual posting from N.J. assault weapons current listing post # 18 ! that clearly state that mechanically actuated shotguns with cylinders are assault classified fire arms in N.J. - + another Quote from post #36 [+elated components should be perfectly fine, and have called a few lawyers to advise/ design a opinion letter.] fwiw in all states by law no lawyers can be held accountable for their opinions + advise unless proven in a court of law thru litigation + judicial decisions !!! - days + thousands of key strokes, dozens of opinions to come to the accurate conclusion that it would not be legal in all 50 states + jurisdictions which was stated long ago in this long winded + opinionated thread - at least 6 other jurisdictions have like + similar clauses that also set a precedent in determinations - jmho - everyone is entitled to their opinions, but they should be based on total + complete research + documented proof before being posted as facts - !!!

[johnsonian09]

Update. Lawyer got back to me. Will be sending them a sample to pursue an opinion letter. They said it sounds lawful at this point in the process. ( not a NJ lawyer but a CT one) gonna pursue in my home state first (sorry)

If obtained I will include update the file drops/ and add the letter.

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[schutzen-jager]

Update. Lawyer got back to me. Will be sending them a sample to pursue an opinion letter. They said it sounds lawful at this point in the process. ( not a NJ lawyer but a CT one) gonna pursue in my own state first sorry


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opinion letters are not valid under any circumstances unless litigated + decided in a valid court of law - by law NO lawyers can be held accountable + liable for their opinions or advice even when it is wrong or illegal !!!

[schutzen-jager]

like previously stated it is common knowledge by law that lawyers opinion letter by lawyers are only valid if litigated + determined to by a court decision - also as previously stated any written opinion from any state or federal jurisdiction can be invalidated at any time by appeal, executive action, emergency court order, + other legal means - IE ongoing bump stock + ghost gun ongoing litigation + appeals that ATF reversed their own previous decisions !

[johnsonian09]

opinion letters are not valid under any circumstances unless litigated + decided in a valid court of law - by law NO lawyers can be held accountable + liable for their opinions or advice even when it is wrong or illegal !!!

It goes against them as malpractice if a loss occurs. Hence why some may be hesitant to provide such an opinion. Plus it makes my case stronger, if I need to defend myself in court. Between SLFU blessing it and a good lawyers opinion letter. I will also talk to them about those circumstances locally.

We have fixed mag ARs here. We already have Pump ARs here just by a specific maker. And another at a custom shop. This is just a DIY kit.

I appreciate your concern and understand your warnings. But you like me, are also just another man on the internet. And not a legal professional, at least not in my state. This is an open forum where I chose to release info about my project and goal. If you had read my read me you would know I already put my disclaimers at the top and yada yada. We all make are own decisions as adults. And we are all simply trying to advance our rights, fun, and curiosities. Within the confines we are allowed.


This was posted more or less for other people to view, discuss modifications to the handguard, working on it, making it more useful. Allow others to customize it if they have the cad skills, etc.


Thanks


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[schutzen-jager]

it is only malpractice if it can be proven in court that act was done maliciously to cause harm intentionally ! - quote [ not a legal professional, at least not in my state ] FWIW theme of thread was based on legality in all 50 states which it is definitely not !!!

[johnsonian09]

it is only malpractice if it can be proven in court that act was done maliciously to cause harm intentionally ! - quote [ not a legal professional, at least not in my state ] them of thread was based on legality in all 50 states which it is definitely not !!!

Read the documentation included with the files. If you can’t read it, simply leave. If someone doesn’t even download it and read the instructions and view the STL. it’s simply useless discourse.

Thankyou for previous inputs and ideas.


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[P Flados]

J09,

I like what you have done. I would like to try a pump AR just so I can easily run both full power and reduced power loads. Using a pump AR for hunting in "unfriendly" states sounds like a great option for some folks.

However, consider the following:

An anti-gun DA does not have to go very far at all to make life miserable for someone that even comes close to violating his cherished new law.

It is easy for him to argue that a lower receiver alone is "the firearm" according to the laws we have. Can you argue differently?

It is easy for him to argue that an AR-15 lower is "substantially identical" to a prohibited lower if it can be used to build a semi auto gun. Do you have any basis to say he is wrong?

That is why I suggested an 3D printed lower that is unable to mate up to a buffer tube, and can not have a buffer spring installed. Since the lower would not be able to used in a semi-auto configuration, you can now make a strong argument that you are no longer substantially identical to a prohibited lower from a functional standpoint. This remains true even though it will mate with an AR-15 upper, use AR-15 mags and would use parts from a standard AR 15 lower parts kit.

Making a useful pump action rifle while leveraging off of the diverse and readily available AR-15 components is a wonderful ultimate goal. However, in some ways us "gun guys" can be our own worst enemies in the battle with the anti-gun types. We look to "get around" restrictions while retaining something as close to the prohibited item as possible. This just pushes to other side to fight back. It might be better to "get as far away" from the prohibited item as possible (while retaining the ultimate goal) just in case someone does give it a try and gets challenged.

[johnsonian09]

If you scroll up a little I posted this pic previously,#36

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240814/d3ec670f37a5ad80a44888e71ab7ef40.jpg

I wont rehash everything again but that is a bufferless fightlite lower clone that takes a mostly standard ar LPK so that’s an option of you want to be really safe. But maybe we can end up with a really capable pump action box fed gun.

Honestly as long as I can buy stock barrels and bolts and not custom make every single component. If the end result is a modular capable pump action I think that would fit the bill for most users

Was trying to keep the printing to a minimum as that’s more approachable for people to buy from an existing popular platform

If we go down this development tree, what kind of stock would people use most? This uses a shotgun style stock and the comb is wrong for this I think.

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[elmacgyver0]

Our government has digressed to the point that whether verbal or written it matters little, they will do what they feel like.

[johnsonian09]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240814/b2fab5600e4d1f50712036cd3c2aea51.jpg
You’d end up with something like this


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[elmacgyver0]

I don't personally consider NJ, and other communist states even part of the United States anymore.
Just my opinion.

[P Flados]

J09,

You do seem to have some stuff to play with:p

[johnsonian09]

P Flados

In my state of ct, AR 15s are banned as assault weapons. Yet we still have the lowers for sale. Because there are legal configurations of guns that can be made with them. Semi fixed mags specifically.

So as far as state DA actively pursuing me for a pump action rifle is very, very low. Plus prior to the 2023 ban update we had CT others. And pre bans from 1993.

I know stag arms, fixed the front pivot pin so the upper couldn’t be removed. So you could clean the gun, but not swap the upper. They did this by boring a recess into the take down pin so the detent would be sprung into it and lock the upper in permanently once installed.

So that, plus the permanent alteration to the upper so that the gas port won’t support a gas tube, plus the deletion of all the gas related components, and installation of a manual operating rod. Would probably create a quite strong pump action only rifle. That couldn’t be converted back to semi without breaking off the front take down pin lug.

And would probably cover over zealous DAs because of the permanence factor.

Opinions? Other methods or suggestions?

Also keep in mind my other proposed uses for a system like this, for hunting in many states that don’t want semi auto hunting. Shooting rounds that won’t cycle a gas system or suppressed applications for those who enjoy them. Does the handguard support all your essential gadgets and gizmos? Does anything interfere with something else? Etc.

I never intended this to solely be a debate over AWB laws. More a query to develop a sound, practical system that could fill many roles and hopefully be universally legal with minor alterations.


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