Caliber choice

[docone31]

I know we are mostly casters, however, I have found competant advice from here.
I got my wife a .45 Spanish cap lock repro rifle. It was inexpensive, and I only had to pull the stuck ball and it is ready to go.
I want to get another Hawken wanna be. I am Looking real hard at the Lyman Plains rifle. I am also a South Paw, my choices are limited. I also do not want inline anything.
I target shoot, if I had to, I would hunt, but I do not prefer to do it. Just my way. I have deep respect for hunters. Most I have met are more humane than any one can imagine. I would call their shot placement fanatic in precision. I just like target shooting.
Now that I have wasted people's time,
Do I go with .50, or .54?
I have never fired these calibers although I had a Cabelas .50 left hand years ago. I completely rebuilt it useing Hawken blueprints, Hawken shop steel furniture, soldered underrib, Hawken trigger group.
Now, cash it tight, and the Lyman has steel furniture.
Any advice in caliber choice?
I am looking forward to slow and smokey with my wife. We shoot together. I even had a chance too take off for the range today to test some new paper patch loads. She did not feel well yesterday so we chose not to push things. Don't want to aggravate her cold.
Hey! My wife enjoys shooting!
What can be better than that?

[dubber123]

I would give the advantage to the .50 for the wider array of moulds and accessories. I have 2 .54's, and sometimes finding .54 stuff can be hard. I wouldn't think the additional recoil of the .54 would be a bonus for target shooting either. Good luck.

[docone31]

I appreciate it. I kinda thought along the same lines.
Have you used the R.E.A.L. bullet any?
I have seen Mine' paper patching.
The test results on the paper patching of Mine's were not that promising.

[Gee_Wizz01]

Since you are target shooting only I would also go with .50 for the wider array of bullets, moulds, and accessories. I shoot a .54, because I bought it for hunting, but if I had to do it all over, I would buy a .50. I shoot patched round balls, REALs and the Lee hollow base Minie. All of these shoot very well in my Cabelas .54 Hawken. I have never tried any paper patching, so I cant help you there. Another advantage of the .50 is that your lead supply will last longer. The lead supply issue has me thinking about a .32 or .45.

G

[Gunfixer]

I too am a lefty. I picked up a T/C New englander LH 54 cal last year for a hunt that didnt happen. With the hornady 385 gr great plains bullet and 110gr triple seven it will shoot an inch group (3 shot) at 100 yds (did it 5 times for proof). I got the lyman improved minie mould, and while not as good, still under 2" at 100 yds (off bench). Also, with a RB and 75 gr T7 it shoots the same 2" group at the same POI. So much fun I bought a T/C renegade LH 50 cal 2 weeks ago, cant wait to go shoot it. I do agree that there is way more available for the 50 than the 54. I am going to try the 250 REAL in the 50 as a friend gave me 10 to try. Oh yeah, both of mine are 1 in 48 twist

[docone31]

Thanks for the feedback.
Now when I get some pocket change...
I have my shopping cart ready with Cabelas.
Seems to be plenty of powder, and caps. Not like for my -06.

[Bret4207]

IMO, and my opinion only, if I'm shooting a replica BP rifle it's going to be with the boolit it was designed for. With that in mind I shoot a 54 and strictly round ball. My small game rifle is a 36 and is also a RB rifle. It's a lot of fun, but not much more power than a 22 mag or maybe a 32-20. If I ever get the FL Late Colonial/Early Penn. period rifle I want it'll probably be a 36 or 40 cal. I see no draw to the various inline and other rifles designed to fire saboted jacketed rounds. It just defeats the idea behind a replica to me.

[Gee_Wizz01]

IMO, and my opinion only, if I'm shooting a replica BP rifle it's going to be with the boolit it was designed for. With that in mind I shoot a 54 and strictly round ball. My small game rifle is a 36 and is also a RB rifle. It's a lot of fun, but not much more power than a 22 mag or maybe a 32-20. If I ever get the FL Late Colonial/Early Penn. period rifle I want it'll probably be a 36 or 40 cal. I see no draw to the various inline and other rifles designed to fire saboted jacketed rounds. It just defeats the idea behind a replica to me.Even though I shoot REAL's and Minies in my .54 Hawken I agree with you. I don't have any desire to shoot Sabots and jacketed bullets in a ML. As I see it the purpose of the in-lines and and sabots is to get around game laws in a number of states. I would rather stay with a traditional approach.

G

[AZ-Stew]

Above all, decide which projectile you're going to shoot (RB, R.E.A.L, Maxi, sabot), then select a rifle in the style you want that has a rifling twist rate designed for your projectile. 1:66 is RB only, 1:48 will do RB, Maxis and probably R.E.A.Ls, but you'll need 1:32-1:24 for sabot rounds.

I made a discovery a few years ago that you might find helpful for a hunting rifle. Using my .50, I shot some rounds over my Chrony, then took the data to a ballistics program for more insight. RB: 1,600 fps. Maxi: 1,300 fps. What's more important, though, is that the Maxi has more energy at 75 yards than the RB has at 50 yards. The drop off is more drastic the greater the distance. In addition, the trajectory is far flatter (the numbers don't come to mind right now) with the Maxi than with the RB. You may find this useful in making your decision.

Regards,

Stew

[docone31]

I was wondering how the R.E.A.L compares to the ball?
Knowing very little about these, and I am definately traditional, I am looking at everything.

[madcaster]

My first choice is .54 for big game,.40 for targets...FLINTLOCKS,of course!

[docone31]

The only traditional anything I ever fired, was a flintlock pistol. Someone I knew had one and let me try it. I had no clue he had never fired it before, or even knew what he was doing.
I aimed, pulled the trigger, it struck, sparked, the pan flashed, and nothing. I waited, lifted it up, and it went off!
I was about 16 at the time, and I never forgot it.
Luckily, the rifle I am looking at is not available in flintlock. I am a lefty.
I kinda have my eyes on a Cabelas traditional Hawken. I would endeaver to put steel furniture on it, solder the under rib, and brown the barrel. Repalceing the sights with original is not an option, it is recquired!

[longbow]

I guess I'll add my 2 cents worth too.

AZ-Stew has it right at making sure the twist will suit the projectile you plan to shoot. Round ball normally likes a slow twist of 1:48 for small calibers to 1:70 or so for .50 & .54 but can perform well in faster twists. Conicals like a faster twist and may not perform well in a slow round ball twist.

I have shot minie's, Maxi's and round balls in several calibers and personally I would go with a minie or a round ball. Just personal preference. I've had better results with minie's and patched round ball than Maxi's ~ haven't shot R.E.A.L.'s so can't comment there.

Patched round balls are very traditional but can be tedious to load during a day of shooting (at least I tend to find them a bit tedious to load when plinking or target shooting).

Pre-lubed minie's are very quick to load and no patching or short starting.

Maxi's and R.E.A.L. bullets can be pre-lubed but still need to be short started.

My feeling is for target shooting .36 to .50 cal is the way to go. Even the .50 with round ball burns up a lot more lead and powder than needed for target shooting so if hunting isn't a concern .36 to .45 should work well for you. There should be a good selection of round ball, minie, Maxi & R.E.A.L. moulds available. Pick a twist fast enough for the conical and it should work well with a ball too. If you get a slow round ball twist you may not get decent accuracy with a conical.

Longbow

[docone31]

Longbow, I have always benefited from your posts.
The rifle I have been looking at has a 1/48 twist. I had always read, 1/66 is better, especially for round balls.
My thoughts on the R.E.A.L. is Lee makes a two cavity mold. On their site, they claim the R.E.A.L. scrapes the bore on loading. I am not sure how accurate that is, but there it is.
I have no experience with Mine's. I have seen tutorials on paper patching Mine's.
I do love to complicate things!
Seems a good patch knife, pillow ticking, ball, and cap is the best all around way to go though.

[GrizzLeeBear]

For target shooting I would definitely stay with the patched round ball. You will get a lot more boolits per pound of lead. I would also stay with the .50 cal. for the availability and economy.
The Lyman Great Plains is by far the most authentic of the "production" Hawken guns out there. Already hase the iron furniture that it sounds like you prefer. It also has the correct twist for roundballs. The longer barrel also helps too I think. It was my 1st traditional ML and real good shooter. I traded mine several years back, after I built my 1st .45 flintlock long rifle.
The Cabelas Hawken (I have one) is a nice gun, but is not really very authentic. Its a copy of the T/C Hawken, which is not even a close copy of a real hawken. The 1 in 48 twist is a good one for short to medium sized conicals (which is why I got it). They are ok with lighter powder charges with round balls, but a lot of times don't shoot well with heavier loads due to the twist.
I mainly deer hunt with my .54 flintlock, but I keep the Cabelas Hawken as a backup and for hunting in thick stuff where I do not want to have to blood trail very far. They don't usually go much more than 50 yds with the .54 round ball, but the .50 cal. 300 gr. Keith nosed HP I shoot in the Cabelas Hawken usually make them DRT (dead right there).

P.S. All my muzzleloaders are lefties, too.

[mooman76]

Like allot of people said above. I'd go with a 50. More choice of moulds and easier to come by. I'd also go with a 1-48 twist. You'll be able to shoot both conicals and RB's out of it.

[Bret4207]

Even though I shoot REAL's and Minies in my .54 Hawken I agree with you. I don't have any desire to shoot Sabots and jacketed bullets in a ML. As I see it the purpose of the in-lines and and sabots is to get around game laws in a number of states. I would rather stay with a traditional approach.

G

Exactly the reason I stick with RB's. NY's ML season turned into an extension of the gun season when they dropped the RB/open sight requirement. Right is right, wrong is wrong, this is wrong.

[GrizzLeeBear]

The only traditional anything I ever fired, was a flintlock pistol. Someone I knew had one and let me try it. I had no clue he had never fired it before, or even knew what he was doing.
I aimed, pulled the trigger, it struck, sparked, the pan flashed, and nothing. I waited, lifted it up, and it went off!
I was about 16 at the time, and I never forgot it.


Do NOT take your impressions of flintlocks from someone who did not know what he was doing. There certainly is a little bit of a learning curve to using them, but a properly tuned and maintained flinter is every bit as reliable as a percussion or even an inline. I can't tell you how many times I have seen inline shooters come to the range, load up, sit down at the bench, take carefull aim thru the scope and ... pop (no boom) LOL. My flinters are as fast as just about any cap or inline gun. The only time I ever have any ignition issues is when I have been shooting a lot of targets so the gun is getting dirty and I get lazy about picking the vent, knapping the flint, etc. Which is no big deal when at the range. When I hunt the gun is clean has a new, sharp rock and I pick the vent after loading.

[44man]

I use to build my own muzzle loaders and sold a few. I also put together many of the Lyman kits for friends. The Great Plains round ball rifle is the only store bought gun that will shoot neck and neck with my home made rifles. Most 5 shot groups at 50 yd's will be one ragged hole.
I recommend that rifle over all others, 50 or .54, doesn't matter. The right size ball, .445" for the .50 and .535" for the .54. The right thickness patch and a good lube like Young Country and I shoot all day without ever wiping the bore.
We shoot the round ball for fun at 200 meters on steel chickens and my best was 4 out of 5 off hand. The 200 meter gong is BORING!
Never look down your nose at the round ball, it is deadly accurate and will flip a deer on it's cork at 100 yd's. I lost count of the deer I have killed with everything from .45 flinters to .54 Hawkins, never lost a single deer no matter how far the shot was.
Do not look at energy figures, they do not mean a thing to an animal.
Yes I used TC's with maxi balls, etc, but never seen a difference in killing power except the boolits drop faster at longer range. The old original TC was deadly accurate but newer TC Hawkin style is a ********* I can NOT get them to shoot! [smilie=1:One even had 3 barrel changes from the factory. They need an after market barrel to work.
Here are a few groups shot with the Lyman. 5 shot groups at 50 and 100 yd's.
(And you guys thought I was only a revolver nut.) :mrgreen:

[44man]

Sorry I pulled that one shot at 100, can't see for beans anymore.

[44man]

Do NOT take your impressions of flintlocks from someone who did not know what he was doing. There certainly is a little bit of a learning curve to using them, but a properly tuned and maintained flinter is every bit as reliable as a percussion or even an inline. I can't tell you how many times I have seen inline shooters come to the range, load up, sit down at the bench, take carefull aim thru the scope and ... pop (no boom) LOL. My flinters are as fast as just about any cap or inline gun. The only time I ever have any ignition issues is when I have been shooting a lot of targets so the gun is getting dirty and I get lazy about picking the vent, knapping the flint, etc. Which is no big deal when at the range. When I hunt the gun is clean has a new, sharp rock and I pick the vent after loading.
100% correct! :drinks: I took home thousands of dollars in groceries with flinters and killed a huge pile of deer with them. Just need to learn them.

[Rockchucker]

I have this Thompson Center 50 cal limited edition with a laminated stock for sell. $275.00 and buyer pays shipping. This gun is like new, only shot 3 times.

[Rockchucker]

Here's a couple more pictures if you're interested.

[HighCountryGuide]

I target shoot and hunt with a Lyman GPR flintlock, among others. The .50 will do all you want, plus some, both on the range and in the woods. The ROT is 1:60 on a standard GPR, and will do it's best with a patched round ball. Mine likes a .018 ticking patch, .490RB, and 70gr of real FFFg. If you go with a flinter, you'll need to shoot the real stuff. A caplock can shoot the fakes just fine, but stick to loose powder, not the pellets or sticks, for best consistency.

Another plus for the .50 is how far a pound of lead will go. A .490 weighs 177gr, whereas a .530 will go 224gr in pure lead. That gives you 39 ball from a pound in the .490 and 31 in the .530. Powder saving will be similar, plus .50 accessories are easier to find, like others have said.

[44man]

Most use .005" too small of a ball. Easier to load? Not so. When seating a ball all you need is a real hard, sharp smack on the starter. From that point the ball goes down the same as a smaller ball.
One way to see if what you are using is correct is to take a large hunk of patch material, lube a spot, place and seat a ball. Then take the cloth and pull the ball back out. You should see the weave of the cloth imbedded in the ball about .005" AT THE BOTTOM OF THE GROOVES, not just from the lands.
TC promoted the use of smaller balls long ago and it might be OK for the junk barrels they make with shallow rifling. A real ML barrel needs rifling about .010" deep.
The bore should NOT be highly polished or chrome plated, only smooth. NEVER buy a chrome plated bore!
Since thick patch material is hard to find, it is easier to use a larger ball. In fact old timers used bore size balls. A .50 took a .500" ball. A .54 took a .540" ball. Works fine with a .010" patch.
Patch thickness difference as small as a cigarette paper can ruin groups or poke one hole.
Do you go "bang", "make smoke", or hit what you aim at?
I will not go into inline guns, abortions! Cold day in hell before I buy one. [smilie=1: