308 subsonic powder options?

[mattri]

Now that TB is gone, Unique a memory, H4895 mia etc what are some other options for subsonic 308 loads with boolits in the 190-220gr range?

We can get IMR4895 from time to time, thought of trying to work down a load with it.

Suggestions?

[Barry54]

On the Hodgdon data center there are 308 Winchester subsonic loads with Titegroup powder. Recipes for 168 grain bullets all the way up to 220 grain.

[mattri]

Good catch, should have mentioned those as well. Haven't seen TG or H322 in a while but hear rumors of some Benchmark from time to time.

[Barry54]

TiteGroup is currently in stock at powder valley and MidwayUSA. Probably most other places too. It seems to be in stock most everywhere when I make my rounds. I bought an 8 lb years ago and it’s taking forever to go through it. So I don’t pay too much attention to it.

There’s Clays subsonic data on there too if you have some of it stashed away.

[dmccord]

You said now that TB is gone. Is that Trail Boss? Did they stop making it or just not available much? Was there a reason to discontinue it if they did? I ask because I have a couple big jugs of it. I am just getting back in to shooting / reloading after being away from it for a few years.

[Recycled bullet]

I'm loading 308 with bullseye and it is very accurate

[Barry54]

You said now that TB is gone. Is that Trail Boss? Did they stop making it or just not available much? Was there a reason to discontinue it if they did? I ask because I have a couple big jugs of it. I am just getting back in to shooting / reloading after being away from it for a few years.

Yes. TrailBoss has been unobtainable for several years. It’s listed for sale on gunbroker at obscene prices here and there. You’re sitting on a fortune if you find the right buyer...

[Jhon]

I'm in NZ Downunder so this may or may not help. An old powder company that burned down in Glasgow Scotland in the 1989s was ICI Noble. Not to be confused with today's Nobel company making powder out of France. Anyhow, a lot of ICI Nobel powder came to Australia and NZ and there's still a bit around. I happened on a couple of jugs of ICI Nobel Shotgun Powder No 78 from the 1980s. Wonderful stuff it turns out, a bulky flake powder that is just small enough to drop consistently from a Dillon 550B powder measure. I use it in 45ACP, 38sp, 44-40, 44mag 45 Colt etc. I developed loads using Red Dot data from the same era. An old shotgun guy told me it was slightly faster than Red Dot but close enough to work up from a minimum load. Which I did in my various calibres. Along with other similar Pistol/Shotgun powders I discovered peak pressure can occur quite suddenly so lots of care and small charge increments required. Anyway, I also got interested in 30 cal reduced loads and read up on all the information for "The Load" of 13gns Red Dot in the likes of 303B and 30-30 Krag etc. Delivering around 1400-1600 fps with cast bullets. Trialing this with Nobel 78 was were I learned about sudden pressure peaks. You only want to have to use a heavy rubber mallet to lift the bolt of your Lee Enfield 303B once. Believe me when I affirm that 13gn is a max charge in most 30cals of Red Dot and similar powders. The interesting bit is the "similar " bit. Other powders have like performance. Universal (Alliant Unique and ADI
AP70N), ADI AS30N, Clay's, 800X are some.
I found myself with a qty of 800X which meters terribly but has lovely big flakes. There is data for it in several large Pistol case calibres. While it is not anywhere I can find listed as an equivalent to Red Dot, I suspected it would have similar characteristics in 30 cal to the Nobel 78 which I have done a lot of work with. It is a larger flake than the 78 which is closer physically to 700x. 6gn of 78 in a 308case with a 200gn cast bullet gives under 1000fps. It turns out, for me that 800X, a 6gn charge gives 960fps with a 204gn cast gc lubed bullet and a tad over 1000fps with a 180gn cast lubed gc bullet. Ignition is very consistent with standard LRP..no filler or dacron or such is required. I can circle my thumb and finger around 5 shots in paper at 50m out of a old Interarms Mk X 308 with about 65% rifling and a shiny bore. I took my last Fallow Stag, a large old fella, at 37m this year, shoulder shot, bang flop. No exit wound. It did not kill him outright, a mercy shot was required, but he could not move. My rifle is suppressed and the sound of the shot is an average cough.

I guess the point is you are not limited to Trailboss. Slow rifle powders and especially fine grain powders, ball powders, can be very dangerous at low charge weights due to the potential for detonation instead of burn occurring. Fast shotgun/Pistol powders are best. And for powders like Universal, Red Dot, Unique, 800X, a 6gn Start Charge in 30cal cases can be very useful indeed. But let me repeat myself. Work up carefully. Above 10-12 grain pressure peaks can be very sudden with some powders. And at 12gn you will likely already be around the magic 1400-1500fps. Standard disclaimer here, what worked for me may not for you. You try any of this on your own responsibility.

[DaleT]

Not to divert the thread but ... This subsonic load in a .308, never even considered a sub load for 308, I'm going to assume that this wouldn't cycle a semi-auto like an M1A

[fastdadio]

Not to divert the thread but ... This subsonic load in a .308, never even considered a sub load for 308, I'm going to assume that this wouldn't cycle a semi-auto like an M1A

Most likely not. But you can close the gas port valve and shoot it like a straight pull bolt action.

[fastdadio]

Now that TB is gone, Unique a memory, H4895 mia etc what are some other options for subsonic 308 loads with boolits in the 190-220gr range?

We can get IMR4895 from time to time, thought of trying to work down a load with it.

Suggestions?

This is where I go for my light load data;
http://gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm
Lots of subsonic data here.

[mattri]

May have missed it but do they have 308 data?

[RickinTN]

Red dot, or any of the Dots, International clays, Universal clays, Clays, Bullseye, and several others. The 4895's, Benchmark or any of those type powders are way too slow for subsonic loads.
Good Luck,
Rick

[charlie b]

May have missed it but do they have 308 data?

No, but, I use the .30-30AI data and it matches pretty close what I get out of my .308. FWIW, my 210gn bullet does not like to fly subsonic. But, my 165 (XCB) and the 180 Lee both loved it. Favorite was 8gn of Blue Dot.

I used to shoot a lot of these before primer prices went up so high.

[Thumbcocker]

Red dot, or any of the Dots, International clays, Universal clays, Clays, Bullseye, and several others. The 4895's, Benchmark or any of those type powders are way too slow for subsonic loads.
Good Luck,
Rick

This

[Gamsek]

In Europe, you can get two powders that are similar in bulkiness and ignite well no matter the position in the case. I use both, TrailBoss, TinStar (N32C) Vihtavuori and RS 14 (Swiss powder).

That’s if you are looking for similar powder. You can use almost any fast pistol powder.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240807/233a0c25da57f290ffb14f8c996e03ef.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240807/c457527bf59d4b37545f7251d4585d7e.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240807/2809abd814fb9308cffc8539c90b9dfc.jpg

[Barry54]

In Europe, you can get two powders that are similar in bulkiness and ignite well no matter the position in the case. I use both, TrailBoss, TinStar (N32C) Vihtavuori and RS 14 (Swiss powder).

That’s if you are looking for similar powder. You can use almost any fast pistol powder.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240807/233a0c25da57f290ffb14f8c996e03ef.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240807/c457527bf59d4b37545f7251d4585d7e.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240807/2809abd814fb9308cffc8539c90b9dfc.jpg

You can get? Or once upon a time you could get? I haven’t seen Vihtavuori Tin Star or TrailBoss here in several years!

Great photo for illustration purposes by the way!

[Leadmad]

I'm in NZ Downunder so this may or may not help. An old powder company that burned down in Glasgow Scotland in the 1989s was ICI Noble. Not to be confused with today's Nobel company making powder out of France. Anyhow, a lot of ICI Nobel powder came to Australia and NZ and there's still a bit around. I happened on a couple of jugs of ICI Nobel Shotgun Powder No 78 from the 1980s. Wonderful stuff it turns out, a bulky flake powder that is just small enough to drop consistently from a Dillon 550B powder measure. I use it in 45ACP, 38sp, 44-40, 44mag 45 Colt etc. I developed loads using Red Dot data from the same era. An old shotgun guy told me it was slightly faster than Red Dot but close enough to work up from a minimum load. Which I did in my various calibres. Along with other similar Pistol/Shotgun powders I discovered peak pressure can occur quite suddenly so lots of care and small charge increments required. Anyway, I also got interested in 30 cal reduced loads and read up on all the information for "The Load" of 13gns Red Dot in the likes of 303B and 30-30 Krag etc. Delivering around 1400-1600 fps with cast bullets. Trialing this with Nobel 78 was were I learned about sudden pressure peaks. You only want to have to use a heavy rubber mallet to lift the bolt of your Lee Enfield 303B once. Believe me when I affirm that 13gn is a max charge in most 30cals of Red Dot and similar powders. The interesting bit is the "similar " bit. Other powders have like performance. Universal (Alliant Unique and ADI
AP70N), ADI AS30N, Clay's, 800X are some.
I found myself with a qty of 800X which meters terribly but has lovely big flakes. There is data for it in several large Pistol case calibres. While it is not anywhere I can find listed as an equivalent to Red Dot, I suspected it would have similar characteristics in 30 cal to the Nobel 78 which I have done a lot of work with. It is a larger flake than the 78 which is closer physically to 700x. 6gn of 78 in a 308case with a 200gn cast bullet gives under 1000fps. It turns out, for me that 800X, a 6gn charge gives 960fps with a 204gn cast gc lubed bullet and a tad over 1000fps with a 180gn cast lubed gc bullet. Ignition is very consistent with standard LRP..no filler or dacron or such is required. I can circle my thumb and finger around 5 shots in paper at 50m out of a old Interarms Mk X 308 with about 65% rifling and a shiny bore. I took my last Fallow Stag, a large old fella, at 37m this year, shoulder shot, bang flop. No exit wound. It did not kill him outright, a mercy shot was required, but he could not move. My rifle is suppressed and the sound of the shot is an average cough.

I guess the point is you are not limited to Trailboss. Slow rifle powders and especially fine grain powders, ball powders, can be very dangerous at low charge weights due to the potential for detonation instead of burn occurring. Fast shotgun/Pistol powders are best. And for powders like Universal, Red Dot, Unique, 800X, a 6gn Start Charge in 30cal cases can be very useful indeed. But let me repeat myself. Work up carefully. Above 10-12 grain pressure peaks can be very sudden with some powders. And at 12gn you will likely already be around the magic 1400-1500fps. Standard disclaimer here, what worked for me may not for you. You try any of this on your own responsibility.

Great Write up Jhon and thanks for sharing, I`m also a Taranaki boy and like you have experimented much with these fast-burning pistol / shotgun powders in 30 cal`s mostly milsurp rifles but also 30 06 and 308 modern rifles,the 800x you quoted I also have a few pounds and quite quickly working my way through it all with cast bullets.

Cheers

[mattri]

Haven't seen any of the Dots lately either.

Picked some IMR4895 to try.

[Jhon]

Red dot, or any of the Dots, International clays, Universal clays, Clays, Bullseye, and several others. The 4895's, Benchmark or any of those type powders are way too slow for subsonic loads.
Good Luck,
Rick

Tested them all have ya?

[Barry54]

Haven't seen any of the Dots lately either.

Picked some IMR4895 to try.

Well suit yourself. There’s published data for TiteGroup and it’s in stock at multiple places. Practically everyone who’s responded here has suggested a pistol/shotgun powder for a subsonic cast load. Others have responded don’t reduce loads with rifle powder that far...

The Lee manual talked about H4895 reduced loads for cast. They didn’t go less than 60% from max loads. They weren’t subsonic there.

If we don’t hear back from you, I’ll assume you implanted rifle pieces in your skull. Please don’t try it at a public range beside innocent people.

[charlie b]

I've downloaded 4895 a lot more than 60% and experienced no ill effects. It does get more erratic and is position sensitive at lower loadings. 4198 is the same.

The reason for using pistol/shotgun powders is to reduce inconsistency. When I load 8gn of Blue Dot it is just laying in the bottom of the case and ignites basically all at once. Which is why some of the powders work better at this than others. If you go through the GMDR link you can see that some seem to burn more consistently (look at the group sizes).

[anothernewb]

FWIW TB is supposed to be coming back to the market. at the shot show they said this year... but I'm sure at shot show they will say anything to drum up interest.

[mattri]

Have heard that about TB for a while, hope it's true.

Interesting you mention 4895 and the 60% rule.

With a 190gr bullet and H4895 Hodgdon lists a max load of 42gr, and a subsonic load of 13.3.
60% of 42 is 25.2, way above their sub load.

[Barry54]

Well I’m running on obsolete information apparently. I apologize.

329365

1. Do not reduce a charge more than 50% except for squib loads.

[mattri]

https://i.postimg.cc/fJpMVygD/Screenshot-20240808-113613.png (https://postimg.cc/fJpMVygD)

[mattri]

I don't know when they started listing sub loads but think it was fairly recently.

[Barry54]

Looks like you answered your own question. I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks. Thanks!

[Recycled bullet]

This is a fascinating subject

[mattri]

Thanks, am hoping folks chime in who have had success with other powders to spread the database as more typical powders get harder and harder to find.

[Recycled bullet]

The Lyman manual for the AR rifle #2 has reduced 308 loads with rifle type powders .

[fastdadio]

When was the last time anyone saw H4895 listed for sale?

[mattri]

Exactly, hence this thread.

[Recycled bullet]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240809/5992c84e38e758c2a6e6509481e832a9.jpg

[mattri]

Great info thanks!

[anothernewb]

When was the last time anyone saw H4895 listed for sale?
purchased 2# at scheels at the end of July. $40+ per lb though.

[Recycled bullet]

I have not tested that load data that is from lyman's AR manual number 2.

Larry Gibson tested the IMR 3031 load with some Noe 225 Spire point bullets I sent him. He told me they grouped at 1.7 in at 100 yards with some indication of tipping or wobbling and he also says that they chronographed approximately 1100 feet per second and that the pressure trace did not record psi pressure for those shots.

When I finally get done trimming this batch of 308 brass that is what I want to try I'm excited to try those from my Remington rifle. Imr 3031s one of my favorite rifle powders has a very broad range of powder charge weights, I had no idea that it was safe to load it so low. I've been experimenting between 25-40 Grains with cast and jacketed bullets.

I have been shooting 150 g and 225 Grain noe bullets with 6.5 grains of Bullseye with pistol primers out of 308 Winchester brass it is a lot of fun. I have fired approximately 250 of them and my intention is to shoot many many more.

[Charlie Horse]

Bullseye, Red Dot, 700X, Unique work for me.

For sub-sonic I think you would want only small charges of the fastest powders.

I keep a marked bamboo skewer as a "dipstick" safety device to check powder level when making loads like these.

[mattri]

Yeah those are def the better known options, nice to see some data for other powders too.