a boy asked, and I didn't know

[DxF]

He asked, why .41 (four-ten)?

Why not call it a 68 gauge? And why 41, instead of the more common 44 or 45?

Gotta be some history there I know nothing about!

[pietro]

.

Two reasons:

The .410" bore size was easier to say/remember than the actual "gauge" (67 1/2).

and

In England at the time, most referred to smoothbores as "12-bore, 16-bore, 20-bore, etc, etc, etc, and not 12-gauge (etc, etc).

.

[Winger Ed.]

For whatever reason, it's called .410 caliber and not a gauge like other shotguns.
Maybe it started off as a .41 cal. rifle that ended up having shot shells adapted to it and got popular like that.

[K43]

Same thoughts when I was a kid. Never found a real answer. I just accepted it is just because that's how it is.

[Charlie Horse]

Caliber names make no sense. 30 caliber, 30 grains of black powder for 30-30. 30 caliber adopted in 1906 for 30-06. 38 is the same bore as a 357.

But you knew that.

[longbow]

I have often wondered the same thing. So I did some internet surfing to learn about .410's. I thought the .410 was a failry recent development but no! The .410 appears to have arrived in early form around 1857 with the Eley brothers advertising both pinfire and centerfire versions. Around 1874 the .410 ssems to have been popular for cane guns and likely if that is true simply the convenient size made it suitable for such use. Again, much earlier than I had thought.

It may well have been adapted from .41 rimfire or similar cartridges leading to a caliber rather than gauge designation.

I've often wondered why it even exists when there is 32 gauge and it really isn't that much larger at 0.526". That is just 0.116" larger so not a lot. Regardless, we have the .410 and it has been around a lot longer than I thought.

I tend to agree on caliber and cartridge designations being confusing and often misleading. Guna and cartridge histories are rather convoluted and some seeming odd decisions were made. Shotgun gauges at least tell you how many balls per pound for that bore size.

As to the question of why not .44 or .45 as they were common cartridge sizes, there were .44-40 shotshells. My unlce had an original Marble's Game Getter handgun with folding rifle stock in .22/.44-40 over and under. I wanted that gun! However, my uncle likely had it before handgun registration was required in Canada and he secretly got rid of it! I was quite annoyed! It could have been declared and registered. Oh well.

But I digress.

I guess as has been said above, we just accept the .410 as is.

Longbow

[Texas by God]

.38 Special is a .36, 38-40 is a .40, .44 magnum is a .43, 38-55 IS a .38…..where’s the confusion?[emoji16]
I have a pre 1968 H&R Topper with “410 Gauge” stamped on the chamber……
410 “Gauge”-What diameter of ball would it take for 410 of them to weigh a pound????
Even old guys have questions!


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[Winger Ed.]

.38 Special is a .36,

A lot of calibers evolved, and got new 'catchy' names for advertising them.

The .38s came from .36 cal. cap & ball revolvers. When brass cartridges came along, the arms makers could
produce guns for them with minimal re-tooling. You could pretty much just change the .36 cylinder to take the new cartridges.
But calling it a .38 sounded better than just saying it was still a .36---- that always had had a .357" bore for the barrel.

Then, .38 Special sounded good for advertising rather than something like 'modern and improved'.
With 'improvements' on that-- .357Magnum made for good sales & advertising.

As the modern guns came along on the line from .36 Navy to .357 Magnum,
the cost of production didn't have any really big, huge and expensive leaps for needing new factory tooling as it evolved.

[Charlie Horse]

I'm just glad we still have .410's because it is such a neat little round.

[HWooldridge]

I consulted my old “Cartridges of the World” by Barnes, but he doesn’t address any history. I suspect the .410 was originally just another choice in the early days then it became popular after manufacturers started making more guns in that size.

[35 Rem]

Cartridge naming is like the English language. There are a bunch of rules then tons of exceptions that run contrary to the rules for all kinds of reasons. I love the chaos myself; it keeps it interesting!

[Patrick L]

As one who's spent a great deal of time shooting skeet with the .410, the simple answer is that, as with EVERYTHING pertaining to the .410, it is simply to frustrate and irritate the living daylights out of you:???:

I have a love/hate relationship with that little bugger. Depends on the day. Sometimes depends on the last station I just stepped off of...

[HWooldridge]

IIRC, the original shell length was 2" and it was primarily intended as a garden pest solution. Even as a 3" shell, it's a challenging round to use on aerial targets, whether skeet or birds. I have used it early in dove season - before they start flying high, and it kills just as good as a larger gauge, assuming I do my part. However, I think skeet would be quite challenging.

[John Wayne]

longbow says they had walking cane's with .410. I would love to have one of those even though I don't use a cane, I would start ;^)

A neighbor grew up using a single shot .410 and to this day is deadly with it on crows.

[jimb16]

Back in the 1700s there were a lot of "rifles" that were actually smooth bores. They could be quite accurate out to around 40 yards or so. I've seen a couple of them. Perhaps the .410 started out as a smooth bore "rifle" that someone decided to start loading with shot instead of a single patched ball.

[Cap'n Morgan]

To make the confusion complete; here in Europe the .410 is refereed to as 36 gauge (sometimes a 12mm) - none of which makes any sense size-wise.

[FLINTNFIRE]

My boy asked if he could have a 410 , I told him if he passed hunters safety with a 95% or more , he got 93% but I was going to give it to him for my birthday anyway so it is now his topper model 58 .

Meant I had to repair the ejector on a diamond arms 410 , so I could have my own .

[Winger Ed.]

To make the confusion complete; here in Europe the .410 is refereed to as 36 gauge (sometimes a 12mm) - none of which makes any sense size-wise.

Oh yeah. With yawl over there driving on the wrong side of the road, holding you dinner fork upside down,
doing that Metric thing, and having an accent so strong- I think yawl have a different word for everything.
I'd expect no less.

[Pereira]

I don't know either, and I don't why, but I have 4 guns chambered in the little cartridge....

RP

[jimb16]

I've only got two....

[atr]

gauge is the unit of measurement of the diameter of the shotgun bore. The gauge is the number of round lead balls, of the same diameter as the gun bore, required to make one pound. example: a 12-gauge or 12-bore gun has a bore of such diameter that 12 pure lead balls of the diameter the size of the bore would weigh one pound. The 410 is the exception and is called 410-bore because it is .410 inches in diameter...

10 gauge 0.775 inch
12 gauge 0.730 inch
16 gauge 0.670 inch
20 gauge 0.615 inch
410 bore... 0.410 inch

and yes my single shot 410 bore is one of my favorites......has accounted for many racoon

[Shawlerbrook]

Trying to make sense out of caliber/guage designations will drive you crazy. Remember an article, forgot where, about the inconsistencies on cartridge names. Interesting though.

[Mike_M]

I only have one, but it's got two barrels.

[W.R.Buchanan]

.410 is 36 ga. then there's 32ga. 28 ga. 24ga. and so on.

the problem with all this is that guns were invented in many countries and everybody had their own ideas on what to call them. There still isn't one all powerful sanctioning body for this word. SAMMI is close. but there are others in Europe.

If you look solely at Shotguns, Beretta should be the one outfit to define everything "shot gun" since they've been making them since the early 1500's and have made more than anyone else.

Randy

[LeontP]

.38 Special is a .36, 38-40 is a .40, .44 magnum is a .43, 38-55 IS a .38…..where’s the confusion?[emoji16]
I have a pre 1968 H&R Topper with “410 Gauge” stamped on the chamber……
410 “Gauge”-What diameter of ball would it take for 410 of them to weigh a pound????
Even old guys have questions!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It would be approximately .23 caliber and weigh ~17 grains. Roughly FF shot.

It would make one heck of a pellet gun though.

[Texas by God]

It would be approximately .23 caliber and weigh ~17 grains. Roughly FF shot.

It would make one heck of a pellet gun though.

Thanks!
Imagine those little bitty skinny shells[emoji16]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LeontP]

I used to call it a .410 gauge also when I was young because that's how it was marked on the barrel above the chamber right under the manufacturers name.

As for 38 (.357) and 44 (.429) and others, let's not forget some of those earlier cartridges were made with 'heeled' bullets.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heeled_bullet

[MakeMineA10mm]

Caliber names make no sense. 30 caliber, 30 grains of black powder for 30-30. 30 caliber adopted in 1906 for 30-06. 38 is the same bore as a 357.

But you knew that.


.38 Special is a .36, 38-40 is a .40, .44 magnum is a .43, 38-55 IS a .38…..where’s the confusion?[emoji16]
I have a pre 1968 H&R Topper with “410 Gauge” stamped on the chamber……
410 “Gauge”-What diameter of ball would it take for 410 of them to weigh a pound????
Even old guys have questions!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A lot of calibers evolved, and got new 'catchy' names for advertising them.

The .38s came from .36 cal. cap & ball revolvers. When brass cartridges came along, the arms makers could
produce guns for them with minimal re-tooling. You could pretty much just change the .36 cylinder to take the new cartridges.
But calling it a .38 sounded better than just saying it was still a .36---- that always had had a .357" bore for the barrel.

Then, .38 Special sounded good for advertising rather than something like 'modern and improved'.
With 'improvements' on that-- .357Magnum made for good sales & advertising.

As the modern guns came along on the line from .36 Navy to .357 Magnum,
the cost of production didn't have any really big, huge and expensive leaps for needing new factory tooling as it evolved.


I used to call it a .410 gauge also when I was young because that's how it was marked on the barrel above the chamber right under the manufacturers name.

As for 38 (.357) and 44 (.429) and others, let's not forget some of those earlier cartridges were made with 'heeled' bullets.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heeled_bullet

Things that don’t make sense, start to make sense when you put history in chronological order. The 36 cap and ball revolvers used .375” balls (roughly 38-caliber) in barrels of roughly the same groove diameter. The 38 S&W (Short) came along in 1877 with a .385” heel bullet, establishing the “38 caliber.” Not long after, building on their experience and seeing the benefits with 44 S&W American (44- cal heel bullet) developing into the 44 Russian (43-cal inside lubed bullet), S&W made the same changes to 38S&W, and the .358” inside-lubed bullet became “38-caliber.”. When the Special came out, they kept the .358” bullets and kept calling it “38.” It was only after a bunch of other superlatives were applied (Super, 38-44) to more cartridges called “38” (and because they wanted to dissuade people from putting a magnum in a special), they decided to discontinue down the 38 path and end the madness! :mrgreen:

I’ll dig into the 410s history and see what I can find.

[Tracy]

.38 Special is a .36, 38-40 is a .40, .44 magnum is a .43, 38-55 IS a .38…..where’s the confusion?[emoji16]
I have a pre 1968 H&R Topper with “410 Gauge” stamped on the chamber……
410 “Gauge”-What diameter of ball would it take for 410 of them to weigh a pound????
Even old guys have questions!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"410 Gauge" would be about .25 caliber. I've also seen it expressed as ".410 Gauge" which would have about a 2.54 inch bore. :bigsmyl2:

[Tracy]

A lot of calibers evolved, and got new 'catchy' names for advertising them.

The .38s came from .36 cal. cap & ball revolvers. When brass cartridges came along, the arms makers could
produce guns for them with minimal re-tooling. You could pretty much just change the .36 cylinder to take the new cartridges.
But calling it a .38 sounded better than just saying it was still a .36---- that always had had a .357" bore for the barrel.

Then, .38 Special sounded good for advertising rather than something like 'modern and improved'.
With 'improvements' on that-- .357Magnum made for good sales & advertising.

As the modern guns came along on the line from .36 Navy to .357 Magnum,
the cost of production didn't have any really big, huge and expensive leaps for needing new factory tooling as it evolved.

.36 cap and ball revolver were ~.36" land to land, but more like .375" - .380" groove diameter. You can get .38 Special conversion cylinders for modern repros but they don't shoot very well because a .358" bullet is severely undersized.

As for where .410 shotguns came from, I think they were originally garden guns in England.