Gas Checked Revolver Bullets

[joeb33050]

I never shot a gc revolover bullet, have been able to do all I want with PB bullets. I'd like to hear about when and why you use gc revolover bullets, need the info for the book. Why??? do you use them???
Thanks;
joe b.

[Lloyd Smale]

They tend on average to be a little more accurate and usually take less load developement to get a good load with one.

[Flash]

Gas checks are used for higher velocity loads and for better accuracy. The lead base melts when the base is exposed to the powder charge after firing. The melted lead allows the gas to escape at different points when the bullet leaves the muzzle therefore, pushing the bullet in random directions after it leaves. This is a recipe for not only poor accuracy but a leaded bore also. Hope this helps.

[Shuz]

I use gas checked boolits to help clean out my bbl whenever leading occurs while experimenting with new loads etc. Seems to work quite well, and is a lot easier than scrubbing with the usual methods.

[9.3X62AL]

Overall, plain base boolits in revolvers do all right until about 1200 FPS for me before accuracy degrades markedly. Gas checks allow higher velocities with accuracy in most cases--although I use a LOT more in 30/32 and 38/357 calibers than in the larger bores. I just don't enjoy recoil as much as I used to, I guess.

[44man]

After catching all kinds of boolits for 50 years, I have never seen a melted base. In fact when Dacron is used as a filler, IT DOES NOT MELT. I pick up tufts on the range all the time. Even a plastic or fiber wad at the base of a boolit does not melt or burn. I use newspaper wads down over the flash hole in some loads and they just blacken and still can be recognized as paper.
Gas cutting on the sides from a poor fitting boolit, YES, but no melted bases.
The gas check really only works to scrape some of the leading from the bore. The proper fit boolit, alloy and lube will stop leading anyway so the gas check would not be needed until velocity gets so high that the boolit can be distorted from the PRESSURE, not heat. The boolit is in the bore so short of a time that it does not get hot enough to melt. The gas exceeds the melting point of steel but does not melt the bore either unless you shoot as fast as a machine gun so the heat can't dissipate. Even then, you will not see melted bullets exit the bore.

[felix]

Bases don't melt, but the sharp edges get blown. ... felix

[Swagerman]

44man, a few years back on another forum, I explained using thin foam wads to hold powder up against the primer flash hole for small granual measurements.

This old timer got on and harranged about melting foam wads building up deposits on the barrel which will cause the ruinnation of the gun.

Tried to explain that the wad doesn't have time to melt in the exchange of energy being formed...he wouldn't be convinced.

Glad you posted which backs up my findings.


Jim

[StarMetal]

Heck, shotgun wads don't show any signs of melting even on the thin edges of the piston cup...not even in magnum loading. Like said the time period is too short....just like running your finger through a candle flame fast, then slow.

Joe

[Flash]

Wow, thatks for letting me down easy guys. I explained the phenomenon of gas cutting as melting because if someone didn't understand the benefits of a gas check, they certainly wouldn't understand what gas cutting meant. I do believe that the lead deposited on the end of a rimfire muzzle is melted though. I reload shotgun shells also and the inside of the hulls are chared and textured from reaching their melting temperature after 3 or 4 loadings. This can't be gas cutting or akin to passing one's finger through a flame. :)

[44man]

Flash, the repeated firing in a shotgun shell's insides is different then the wad or boolit that was shot out fast. The shell is stuck where it is until all the powder burns and it contains all the pressure until releaved by the charge exiting. It DOES get hotter but if you notice, the first firing only effects a thin surface. It takes repeated firing to show much damage.
You are correct that hot gas rushing past the sides of a poor fitting boolit can melt the sides and edges but the actual base will not melt.

[Bass Ackward]

Joeb,

There are a thousand and one reasons to use GCs on a pistol bullet. Just the same number as not to.

GCs solve problems.

If you shoot at a firing rate fast enough that you out run the capibility of your lube is a good reason.

Another is if I need a faster powder to get good ignition. Usually lighter bullets benifit from a GC.

A GC enables me to shoot a cheaper / softer mix of lead or at higher velocities.

You will run into some revolvers that are mechanicaly out of sync enough that you can never shoot plain base with it without leading. Even if you fire lap.

Or you like to use the same bullet in handgun and rifle combo where one or the other or both don't handle the pressure and lead.

Or you are shooting a bullet so large in diameter (.434 and up) and you don't want to over due belling your brass, thus shortening case life.

Just a few of the reasons I do from time to time.

[beagle]

GCs in a peestol be a unnecessary, added expense PITA most of the time.

I use them when I have a special purpose load where I have to use a smaller diameter bullet than I'd like to in a pistol. The .30 Carbine Ruger comes to mind.

I'm forced to use .309" bullets when I'd like to use .311. Some brass won't let me use bullets that big. I know, stuff them in and use a taper crimper. Problem is when you pull and measure, they're down to .309 anyway. In this case, a .309 with a GC at higher velocities is the answer and eliminates the leading I'd get with a PB design sized to .309.

The other case is the Lyman 358156/HP in the .357 Mag. It's made for one and normally, I'll get leading unless I use one.

I have dehorned a 358156HP and it works good even at .357 Mag velocities.

IMHO, there's not use for a GC in a pistol if you have a plain base bullet that's big enough and i've dehorned maybe a dozen different revolver bullets from .32 through .45 Colt./beagle

[joeb33050]

Thanks, just what I needed. I'm putting the last 2 responses in the book now.
joe b.

[joeb33050]

Beagle, dehorned? Bored out the mold so no GC shank, made it a plain based mold? Is that it?
Thanks;
joe b.

[omgb]

If a bullet doesn't fit the bore correctly, hot gasses will blow by the base and it will melt lead onto the bore. I've read a number of papers on the issue and that's what a lot of leading seems to be from. The key is blow by. The effect of concentrating hot gass on a small area causes lead to melt. powder acting on the whole base will not. There are other causes for leading however. Some, is due to rough bores literally scraping it off in smears. Gas checks prevent the base from being torched and make up for rough bores to some small degree.

Now, all of that relates to smokeless. Let me add my $.02 about BP loads. BP burns slower and barrel time is thus increased for bullets pushed by BP. Everything, including wads, is subjected to heat for a lot longer time. Plastic wads and shot shells will and do, melt with BP. If you attempt to use plastic shotcups in loading BP shotshells for example, three or four rounds will leave consideralbe melted plastic in your bore. Likewise, loading plastic hulls with BP ruins them in as few as two or three loadings. Paper hulls get pin holes in low basewad hulls in as few as two loadings. That's one reason why manufacturers back in the BP days, used high brass bases and low internal base wads in 31/2 dram or greater loads in paper hulls using BP. In large capacity cases like the 45-90, a plastic over powder wad or the use of a dacron filler will get you gobs of melted plastic both in the bore and in the cartridge itself. Carbboard or fiber is the ticket here.

Going back to the original thesis, one of the reasons we all (BP shooters) use soft lead and tin bullets is that with a soft lead, the bullet will bump up upon fireing to completely seal the bore and eliminate any tendancy to lead. Shoot WWs with BP and leading becomes an issue in rifles that previously never even hinted at it.

Hmm, going back to the shotshell thing again; In loading smokeless shotshells, some powders will partially melt shot cups. Mainly it's the slower burning ones from what I've seen. Further, the amount is small but if one is a trap shooter, where you shoot hundreds of rounds it does show up. From my personal experience and interaction with these guys, trapshooters tend to be sloppy about cleaning bores and I've seen more than one who bragged about not cleaning a gun all season. YMMV So, I don't think the average guy will ever have to worry much about plastic residue in his shotgun bore.

[44man]

OK, figure out this one! I have been shooting WW and 2% tin boolits from my .475 because it is cheaper and quicker to alloy. I water drop them and size very soon after casting. I run them through a .476 size die. My throats are .4765. I can barely push a boolit through the throats. After shooting a bunch, my bore was packed with lead. Accuracy is fantastic until the lead builds up and it still shoots good even when leaded. The bore is so smooth that almost all just pushes out with a tight patch and jag. A brush removes the rest.
I gave up and mixed my hard alloy of 20# of WW's, .4# of tin and .6# of antimony. Brinnel is around 20.
I just shot almost 100 of these and there was not one speck of lead in the bore.
These are 417 gr plain base boolits and all of you have seen the groups they shoot. I am getting around 1300 fps. It is a little hard to believe that this velocity is causing so much leading from water dropped WW metal.
I also shot 60 boolits of this alloy yesterday out of my Ruger .44. When I cleaned the gun this morning the bore was clean of leading, not a speck. This is a 330 gr boolit at maybe 1250 fps. Can't find my readings!
NOW DON'T SAY THE WW METAL IS SOFT, I just got a Brinnel reading of 20 from them also.
As I have posted before several times, I think it is something about WW metal that makes it lead. I have shot softer alloys made up from pure lead, tin and antimony that did not lead. (No. 2 alloy.)
My conclusion is that this leading problem is not a cut and dry proposition and what works in one gun may not work in another.

[omgb]

I agree 44man, it's not cut and dry. I can't imagine what is causing the leading in your gun but your experience with WW metal is similar to mine.

[Bass Ackward]

OK, figure out this one! I have been shooting WW and 2% tin boolits from my .475 because it is cheaper and quicker to alloy. I water drop them and size very soon after casting.

I gave up and mixed my hard alloy of 20# of WW's, .4# of tin and .6# of antimony. Brinnel is around 20.

It is a little hard to believe that this velocity is causing so much leading from water dropped WW metal.

NOW DON'T SAY THE WW METAL IS SOFT, I just got a Brinnel reading of 20 from them also.
As I have posted before several times, I think it is something about WW metal that makes it lead. I have shot softer alloys made up from pure lead, tin and antimony that did not lead. (No. 2 alloy.)
My conclusion is that this leading problem is not a cut and dry proposition and what works in one gun may not work in another.


44man,

Well you could be right about gun specific. But I have had that mix at 14 BHN up to 65,000 psi and 3200 fps without leading. And 2900 fps in several rifles. No leading.

The only thing I can offer is the "theory" that when you size WW, the portion that is sized can soften to less BHN than if you air colled them.

This is easy to proove though. Take some of that batch and size them first. Then oven heat treat them to about 415 degrees. That should give you close to 20 BHN and shoot again. If it doesn't lead then you know that you got softness from sizing. IF it does, then you need another theory.

[454PB]

I own a Freedom Arms .454 Casull, and it will not accept a boolit sized anymore than .4515", the chamber throats are too tight. The bore is .452", and any plain based boolit fired at full pressure is gauranteed to lead. I have done the heat treating and water quenching, for me it's easier and faster to use a gas check.

[Scrounger]

I own a Freedom Arms .454 Casull, and it will not accept a boolit sized anymore than .4515", the chamber throats are too tight. The bore is .452", and any plain based boolit fired at full pressure is gauranteed to lead. I have done the heat treating and water quenching, for me it's easier and faster to use a gas check.

Why not just have the chamber throats reamed out to at least the bore size, if not a half a thou bigger? Seems to me this is a simple solution...

[omgb]

Brownell's makes a tool for releaving tight 45 cal pistol chambers and IIRC, Handloader magazine did an article describing the process using only the bit and a hand "T" wrench. You may want to look into that. Eveidently it's a very common problem with almost all makes of 45 cal revolvers.

[Scrounger]

Someone posted this website as a place that does an excellent job on reaming the cylinders at a very reasonable price. Part of the charge goes to a good cause... :drinks:

http://www.cylindersmith.com/

[454PB]

I'm paranoid. When I own a gun as tight and accurate as this one, I'm leary of changing anything. The point of my post was that the use of gas checks can solve multiple problems. I can use relatively soft alloys at 1600 to 1700 fps. and still get good expansion.

[ddixie884]

I am really confused by the fact that sizing makes an alloy bullet softer when compressing of aluminum or copper makes them harder. Can anyone explain this phenomenon to me? If so thanks in advance.

[MT Gianni]

ddixie, Lead work softens instead of work hardening like iron. Just one of its properties that make it great for shooters. Gianni.

[nighthunter]

I use gas checks in my 44 Mags on my 300 gr FNGC from MM. I also use them in a Ruger Blackhawk in 30 Carbine. I like them in these 2 calibers and my mind won't be changed. I think the gas check gives a more perfect base on the bullet which aids in accuracy. I also shoot lots of PB bullets in 44 cal, 40 S&W and 357 cal. The PB bullets are definately cheaper to shoot and a lot less work. Accuracy at the levels I shoot them are quite acceptable. Just sometimes I feel a gas check is called for.
Nighthunter

[beagle]

Joe...that's our local name for the process of milling out the GC shank making it a PB design.


Beagle, dehorned? Bored out the mold so no GC shank, made it a plain based mold? Is that it?
Thanks;
joe b.

[44man]

Bass, my boolits as cast are .460 and I run them through a .460 die to only remove excess lube. The die hardly touches the sides of the boolit. I only see a few tiny places that touch. I also do this before the boolit develops full hardness and expansion. I do the exact same with the hard alloy so you can't say this is the reason for leading. I can understand what you say if I was really sizing them, but I am not. I have shot them by hand lubing without running through the die with the same results. Only trouble is I get too much lube in my reloading dies. The size die still leaves a lot of lube on the sides of the boolit but I can live with that.

[Blacktail 8541]

Send The Gun Back To Freedom Arms With A Couple Of Your Boolits, They Will Take Care Of The Problem. That Is Part Of The Reason For Spending The Big Bucks. They Will Make It Right If They Are Undersized.

[Bass Ackward]

I do the exact same with the hard alloy so you can't say this is the reason for leading.



44man,


Well you might be right about the leading but lets get this straight.

There is a complete difference in lead if it is hardened by formula vs if it is hardened by heat treatment regardless of the method.

Sizing will not soften lino type (as an example) at 22 BHN.

It will soften HTWW that is sized even a smigin. And where this softening occurs is right where the bullet contacts the bore. With heat treatment, it matters not whether you size a wet bullet right after the quench or two years later. They both will end up the same hardness where sized. The key .... is how quickly they are shot. If you size a freshly water dropped bullet before it gets hard, then the sized portion is subject to normal air cooled aging rates regardless how hard the rest of the bullet is. So if you shoot 24 hours later, then measure an aircolled bullet then and see what hardness you are actually shooting in contact with your bore. It might surprise ya. Take my ACWW 2% tin. 24 hours after molding it is only 10 bhn.

If you size after hardneing, then it can take awhile before it gets soft. That was why I mentioned this.

It could still have nothing to do with the leading. Just so you know.

[joeb33050]

This is where I am now. I have attempted to include every response that brings a new thought to the topic. If you want your real name included, please tell me what it is, Deputy Al, 44 Man, 454PB, nighthunter. Remember, this is going in the book!!!
Any more??
Thanks to all;
joe b.
GAS CHECKS ON PISTOL BULLETS
I know nothing about auto-load pistols, and very little about shooting cast bullets in revolvers.
Elmer Keith said that good accuracy at high velocities without leading was achievable in revolvers with plain based bullets of the proper alloy and size.
Other shooters and writers maintain(ed) that gas checks are necessary to eliminate leading at high velocities in revolvers.
In the 1958 Lyman "Handbook Of Cast Bullets", page 88 has Elmer's recommendations of plain based bullets for revolvers. He ends with:"Properly cast, sized and lubricated they give no leading in any caliber."
The facing page, 89, has Ray Thompson's recommendations for gas checked bullets in revolvers ant the 45 auto-load pistol. He begins with:"I designed these bullets with gas checks primarily for the elimination of leading in Magnum loads, with excellent accuracy both at long range and target."
The dabate continues.

"There are a thousand and one reasons to use GCs on a pistol bullet. Just the same number as not to.
` GCs solve problems.
If you shoot at a firing rate fast enough that you out run the capibility of your lube is a good reason.
Another is if I need a faster powder to get good ignition. Usually lighter bullets benifit from a GC.
A GC enables me to shoot a cheaper / softer mix of lead or at higher velocities.
You will run into some revolvers that are mechanicaly out of sync enough that you can never shoot plain base with it without leading. Even if you fire lap.
Or you like to use the same bullet in handgun and rifle combo where one or the other or both don't handle the pressure and lead.
Or you are shooting a bullet so large in diameter (.434 and up) and you don't want to over due belling your brass, thus shortening case life.
Just a few of the reasons I do from time to time."
John Robinson

"GCs in a peestol be a unnecessary, added expense PITA most of the time.
I use them when I have a special purpose load where I have to use a smaller diameter bullet than I'd like to in a pistol.
The .30 Carbine Ruger comes to mind. I'm forced to use .309" bullets when I'd like to use .311. Some brass won't let me use bullets that big. I know, stuff them in and use a taper crimper. Problem is when you pull and measure, they're down to .309 anyway. In this case, a .309 with a GC at higher velocities is the answer and eliminates the leading I'd get with a PB design sized to .309.
The other case is the Lyman 358156/HP in the .357 Mag. It's made for one and normally, I'll get leading unless I use one.
I have dehorned a 358156HP and it works good even at .357 Mag velocities.
IMHO, there's not use for a GC in a pistol if you have a plain base bullet that's big enough and I've dehorned (milled out thegas check shank on the mold, making it a plain-based mold) maybe a dozen different revolver bullets from .32 through .45 Colt."
John Goins (beagle)

"Overall, plain base boolits in revolvers do all right until about 1200 FPS for me before accuracy degrades markedly. Gas checks allow higher velocities with accuracy in most cases--although I use a LOT more in 30/32 and 38/357 calibers than in the larger bores. I just don't enjoy recoil as much as I used to, I guess." Deputy Al

"After catching all kinds of boolits for 50 years, I have never seen a melted base. In fact when Dacron is used as a filler, IT DOES NOT MELT. I pick up tufts on the range all the time. Even a plastic or fiber wad at the base of a boolit does not melt or burn. I use newspaper wads down over the flash hole in some loads and they just blacken and still can be recognized as paper.
Gas cutting on the sides from a poor fitting boolit, YES, but no melted bases.
The gas check really only works to scrape some of the leading from the bore. The proper fit boolit, alloy and lube will stop leading anyway so the gas check would not be needed until velocity gets so high that the boolit can be distorted from the PRESSURE, not heat. The boolit is in the bore so short of a time that it does not get hot enough to melt. The gas exceeds the melting point of steel but does not melt the bore either unless you shoot as fast as a machine gun so the heat can't dissipate. Even then, you will not see melted bullets exit the bore." 44 Man

"I own a Freedom Arms .454 Casull, and it will not accept a boolit sized anymore than .4515", the chamber throats are too tight. The bore is .452", and any plain based boolit fired at full pressure is gauranteed to lead. I have done the heat treating and water quenching, for me it's easier and faster to use a gas check." 454PB

"I use gas checks in my 44 Mags on my 300 gr FNGC from MM. I also use them in a Ruger Blackhawk in 30 Carbine. I like them in these 2 calibers and my mind won't be changed. I think the gas check gives a more perfect base on the bullet which aids in accuracy. I also shoot lots of PB bullets in 44 cal, 40 S&W and 357 cal. The PB bullets are definately cheaper to shoot and a lot less work. Accuracy at the levels I shoot them are quite acceptable. Just sometimes I feel a gas check is called for." Nighthunter

"If the bullet is made for a gas check, use it. I have
never used one where it hurt accuracy,properly applied. Most of us are
thrifty and don't want to "waste" an expensive piece of copper, so
experiment with ways to do without the little buggers. Again, I have
never used them and had them hurt accuracy." Ric Bowman

[NuJudge]

I am really confused by the fact that sizing makes an alloy bullet softer when compressing of aluminum or copper makes them harder. Can anyone explain this phenomenon to me? If so thanks in advance.

It has to do with the recrystalization temperature of metals, which is usually about half of the melting temperature, when expressed in degrees Kelvin or Rankine (the absolute temperature scale). At the recrystalization temperature the crystalographic lattice spontaneously reorganizes into one with a lot less disorder (distortion). Disorder in a crystalographic lattice resists deformation. Disorder in the lattice can be that due to lattice distortion by atoms of other metals (and therefore the wrong size) substituting for Lead in the lattice and atoms of other metals getting shoehorned in between Lead atoms in the lattice, or small islands of precipitated compounds, or cold work. If there is less disorder in the lattice (such as after recrystalization), deformation happens easier.

The recrystalization temperature for most Lead alloys is a little below room temperature. During it, you lose disorder in the lattice that was cast in (for higher melting point metals, that which was cold worked in is lost also). Cold work distortion has always seemed to me to provide most of the energy for this reorganization; no cold working, no recrystalization.

Recrystallization in most metals happens really fast usually, progressing at about the speed of sound through the piece. Through lower melting point metals, the literature seems to indicate that it happens over a period of time.

If it helps you any, just think of the annealing temperature of Lead being about room temperature.

CDD

[Char-Gar]

Gas checks on sixgun bullet?...Why would I use t hem?...Hummm...Oh yes!

1. GC bullets deliver a slight edge in accuracy when the ranges stretch out

2. GCs allow the use of a softer alloy per velocity. Comes in handy with HPs

3. Shoot very clean

4. Look cool.