The 144,000

[Bowdrie]

I have no answer, no clue, no idea.
Where will 144,000 witnesses for the Lord come from?
We're told there are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.
Bear with me while I do some math.
The latest census reports say that there are ~7,500,000 Jews in Israel, and perhaps another 7,500,000 living elsewhere in the world.
So now we have ~15,000,000 Jews in the world, (and that's everybody from little children to old people).
A couple of studies show that only ~1% of Jews self-identify as "Messianic", believers in Jesus as their savior.
If that's true, then there are only ~ 150,000 Jewish believers in the whole world.
Now, take away the children and the old people, the ones with disabilities, and those who perhaps can't travel, and how many are you left with?
25 thousand? 40 thousand? maybe 50>60 thousand?
If God wanted to "seal" 144,000 Jewish people today to be witnesses around the world, where would He even find them?
Will scores of thousands instantly become believers?

[Good Cheer]

The twelve tribes are twelve tribes, not Jews.

[Nines&Twos]

The twelve tribes are twelve tribes, not Jews.

Strong delusions and spirit of slumber GoodCheer. Why the world thinks all of Israel are Jews I'll never know. They are just that ignorant I suppose. All Jews are Israelites but not all Israelites are Jews. Our brother Judah is one of 12....or 13 even since Joseph got a double portion and Ephraim and Manasseh came to be. ....then one could suppose 14 even since the tribe of Levi was there too, but had no true [land] inheritance. ..........and I will stop soap boxing right there.


***Everyone interested should splurge and buy a very small book by E. Raymond Capt : The Abrahamic Covenant. It's cheap and short, doesn't ram opinions down your throat but gives MUCH for you to ponder.

[Good Cheer]

Yeah, I have some of Capt's books. In the 90's when I was doing a research project on the great pyramid I was fortunate enough to get some of his books on the subject. Came to think that there's even more to that particular story than Capt knew or else would let on about. Also have his book Jacob's Pillar.

About the tribes...
Nowadays it's not unusual for people to think of Israelites as being synonymous with Israelis or "the Jews" or to think that the Jews of today are all descended from Judah or Israelites. It's a mishmash of confusion that seems to have been fostered by multiple organizations whose aspirations are thusly assisted.

That said, I usually try to encourage people to be circumspect and not tempted to throw the baby out with the bath water for no matter how many claim to be of our brother Judah there really are some who are.

[Alabama358]

I have no answer, no clue, no idea.
Where will 144,000 witnesses for the Lord come from?
We're told there are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.
Bear with me while I do some math.
The latest census reports say that there are ~7,500,000 Jews in Israel, and perhaps another 7,500,000 living elsewhere in the world.
So now we have ~15,000,000 Jews in the world, (and that's everybody from little children to old people).
A couple of studies show that only ~1% of Jews self-identify as "Messianic", believers in Jesus as their savior.
If that's true, then there are only ~ 150,000 Jewish believers in the whole world.
Now, take away the children and the old people, the ones with disabilities, and those who perhaps can't travel, and how many are you left with?
25 thousand? 40 thousand? maybe 50>60 thousand?
If God wanted to "seal" 144,000 Jewish people today to be witnesses around the world, where would He even find them?
Will scores of thousands instantly become believers?

Old Testament Saints that reside in heaven... redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb, a remnant that the Lord has set aside.

Revelation 14:3-5
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.



Revelation 7:5-8
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Think "First Fruits" (the first agricultural produce of a season, especially when given as an offering to God.)

[Bowdrie]

Rev.14:3, "which were redeemed from the earth."

God will send them back down here with glorified bodies?
That would make sense, the two witnesses are generally believed to be Moses and Elijiah,
or some believe they could be Moses and Enoch.

[Good Cheer]

Whoever they turn out to be, wouldn't it be a hoot to see the looks on all the gift givers faces.
General Buck Turgidson's face after the chickens-in-the-barnyard speech comes to mind.

[Nines&Twos]

I struggle with the identity of the 2 witnesses myself. It makes the most 'sense' to say Moses and Elijah. Chief Lawgiver and Chief Prophet.
Hebrews 9:27 tells us it's appointed to ALL of us to die in the 1st death. Even Christ did that. Our Father's Word says Enoch did not die but was taken, Gen 5:24 & Hebrews 11:5. Elijah was taken but Deuteronomy 34:5 says Moses died there in the land of Moab. So Enoch still needs to die the 1st death (flesh) as is appointed to all men. .....but here's the rub....Who appeared on the Mount of transfiguration with Christ? Matthew 17:3 - It was Moses and Elijah. So I end up chasing my tail on this until I realize what My Father would say to me about it...Matthew 6:34 which I personally translate [for myself, not you] "Boy ain't you got enough to deal with...tend to what's on your plate and stop worrying about the things that don't really concern you. I AM in control." ....and that HE is.

[Alabama358]

Rev.14:3, "which were redeemed from the earth."

God will send them back down here with glorified bodies?
That would make sense, the two witnesses are generally believed to be Moses and Elijiah,
or some believe they could be Moses and Enoch.

I kind of lean to towards Moses and Elijah as well...

I always wondered when the two witnesses one thousand two hundred sixty days of prophesying will be?

Right out of the gate until the midpoint... or, about the midpoint finishing towards the end of the 7 year period.

My thoughts are more middle towards the end because after they are killed... Revelation 11 says the 2nd Woe has past - the 3rd Woe is on its way and the 7th trumpet sounds

Revelation 11:11-15
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[Alabama358]

I struggle with the identity of the 2 witnesses myself. It makes the most 'sense' to say Moses and Elijah. Chief Lawgiver and Chief Prophet.
Hebrews 9:27 tells us it's appointed to ALL of us to die in the 1st death. Even Christ did that. Our Father's Word says Enoch did not die but was taken, Gen 5:24 & Hebrews 11:5. Elijah was taken but Deuteronomy 34:5 says Moses died there in the land of Moab. So Enoch still needs to die the 1st death (flesh) as is appointed to all men. .....

I would not get bogged down with the everyone is appointed to to die once thing.

Think about it like this... all those saved folks that are lucky enough to be standing(did not die a natural death) when Christ returns will not have to drop dead before they can get on with eternal life under Christ.

I think you are right that the appearance of Mount of transfiguration with Christ is a strong indication... that combined with the fact that all of the miracles that the Two Witnesses will be doing during the 1,260 days are the same that Moses and Elijah did on their first tour of duty.

[Nines&Twos]

I try not to let myself ponder it too much as it eats up time i could use studying something more useful...but the mind goes where the mind goes and Hebrews 9:27 is not the only place that'll snag your line. John 3:13 ALL that go up must come down 1st and other than the nephilim that left their place of habitation against the orders of our Father...everyone has come down and will go back up to heaven [Ecclesiastes 12:7 'BACK' to the Father who gave it] ...heaven being wherever our Father is...and some recoil at the notion that evil doers will 'go to heaven' but ALL will stand before the White Throne and ALL who die before the 7th trump will go to the right or left side of the gulf to wait for that Judgment. Our Father gets to do whatever he darn well pleases and maybe Enoch is just gonna be 'That guy'. Good for him. ....I'm gonna ask him about it some day.:D