Bore Leading in 9mm and 38 Super 1911's

[03lover]

My 5'' barreled 9mm and 38 Super, both in the 1911 style pistol want to lead up in the bore shooting cast boolets.

I have tried boolet diameters from .355" to .357" and can't see any difference. The boolets I am using are all single grease groove type running from 115 grain to 130 grains for most of them. A few are two grease grooved with the grooves being smaller. I have tried some 150 grain RN also.

The bores look mirror smooth with no reamer marks at all. My pistols will not cycle properly unless the loads are near or at maximum with all the powders I have tried. Unique, Win. 231, AA 5 and AA 7.

I have read some cast boolet data that suggests the use of cast boolets in pistols that run C.U.P. pressures up in the 28,000psi to 33,000psi range require a lead bullet that is much harder than those used in lower pressure cartridges like the 45 ACP or 45 Colt. I have no leading problems in those 45's.

From what I have read, I suspect the bullets I am casting from wheel weights may not be hard enough for the 9mm pressures. I think I have to try some that I water drop, but that will be some time before I do some more casting. My other option is to purchase some hard cast bullets and try them to see if that makes any difference.

I can reduce the loads in the 38 Super but the accuracy decreases also. The 9mm will not tolerate reduced loads because it fails to cycle properly and reducing the recoil spring strength isn't working because springs less than the 10 lb. one that is in the gun fail to go into battery too often. Maybe the 9mm in a full sized 1911 wasn't such a good idea.

I would appreciate any suggestions that could help eliminate the leading. Accuracy goes away quite rapidly as the leading starts to increase.

[KYCaster]

First, make sure you're not sizing the boolits smaller when seating and crimping.

Then, try .358 dia.

Then, if you still think a harder boolit will help, heat treat some of your WW boolits.

Jerry

[Blazin]

My pistols will not cycle properly unless the loads are near or at maximum with all the powders I have tried. Unique, Win. 231, AA 5 and AA 7.

I would say play with recoil spring weight, but it seems like you may have already tried that.

[mtgrs737]

Slug the bore and size .001" to .002" over the bore size. Loaded rounds may not chamber if you go too big and swell the case so that it has no clearance in the chamber, they should chamber fully with no extra effort. You might try Lee Liquid Alox lube to get full coverage or a different lube may help. You arn't using the Lee Carbide factory Crimp die are you? Those dies post size the case and boolit and may not be good for these pistols. Good luck!

[runfiverun]

try the harder ones.
you could try a coat of lla or jpw also.
i would also see if the case is squeezing the boolits back down to 356 or so.
the higher pressure stuff takes a bit of sperimentin.

[EMC45]

Go bigger, softer and LLA them. I was getting leading and so-so accuracy with my Hi Power. I slugged the bore and sized all my bullets @ .358 from that point on.

[03lover]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I have a number of things to try yet.

I ran into the bullet being undersized by the brass very early on in loading both the 38 Super and the 9mm. It took me some time to correct that problem, but I did correct it. I have always watched for cheap used die sets at the guns shows and I probably have at least five sets in most of the calibers I reload.

With the 9mm I have four different carbide sizers and two steel sizers. Because there is a notable difference in the thickness of the various manufacturers brass, and a notable difference is how much a sizer sizes, I had to experment enough to find which sizer work best with which brass for a given bullet diameter so bullet retention was good but not so tight as to reduce the bullet diameter. I do sort all of my brass and load one kind at a time. Bullet diameters have run from .355" to .357". I found the FC brass, likely the thinnest 9mm brass, sized in a steel die, steel sizes the smallest of all, works best for cast bullets .355" diameter and larger because I use a .349" expander so it doesn't expand the brass, it only bells it. The brass being thin does not reduce the diameter of the seated bullet, yet provides plenty of bullet retention.

I can't use a .358" diameter bullet. It is too much over the groove diameter and I have a very tight chamber.

I have some of the cast bullets that feed great in my 9mm, lubed with the Lee Liquid Alox and plan to try them next. I figure if that doesn't help, this problem is going to be more difficult to solve than I thought.

I mentioned in my original post, The 10 lb. recoil spring, original to the pistol, doesn't have a lot of force when it comes to stripping a round from the magazine and chambering it. I plan to try 9 and mayby an 8 lb. recoil spring with the lighter bullets, hoping as this pistol gets more free the slide will work with a lighter spring. I also plan to try cast bullets that are 128 grain.

I need to try cast bullets that are of a known hardness and harder than the ones I have been casting. I have a couple I found that I can purchase that are each different in hardness and both harder than those I cast. If I go to water dropping my cast bullets I will be as hard as any I can purchase.

So far with diameter changes, I haven't seen any difference. I will keep you posted with any progress I may have.

[Dale53]

It is quite common for .380, 9mm, and .38 Supers to sometimes have chambers tighter that the barrel diameters. In other words, you may need a .358" bullet for the barrel but you can't chamber one. The only solution for that is to open the chamber to proper dimensions for the barrel. If the bullet does not enter the barrel large enough you will have gas cutting and severe leading.

Just a thought...

Dale53

[Houndog]

I don't know about your 1911 style pistol, but I shoot a 9mm Smith extensvely. I use the 124 Gr. Lee round nose boolet that drops from the mold at .358. I water drop, use straight WW for the boolet and resize to .357, lubing them with White label BAC. My favorite load is 4.7 Winchester Super Field in Winchester cases with Winchester primers. DO NOT USE A TAPER CRIMP DIE!!!!! This is a good middle of the road load, is fairly clean, and produces zero leading in my pistol. Give it a try.

Dale's suggestion on slugging your barrell and measuring your chamber should have been the first order of business. My Smith's barrell measures .356 and going .001 over that for the size die works perfect for me.

[NuJudge]

I'm a believer in using hard bullets in the 9mm, as big as I can get to chamber, and using a good lube, each of which may cure gas blow by.

If nothing else works, try really soft bullets with a really fast powder. It has not worked for me, but it may work for you.

CDD

[Lloyd Smale]

i will agree with the above posts. try .358 if they will chamber and cast with a harder alloy. Most every semi auto handgun ive worked loads up for does much better with harder alloys. Most of them have very shallow rifling compared to a revolver or rifle. the harder bullets also help prevent damage to the bullet as it travels up the feed ramp and into the chamber. I use at least a #2 alloy for semi autos and sometimes go to 5050 ww/lyno. We did a ton of testing a few years back with a slug of 1911s and some 40 and 9mm handguns and in EVERY case accuracy improved as we went up in steps from 5050 ww/pure to strainght linotype. We had a few that would not improve between one step or the other but all improved over the test and not one shot worse with any increase in alloy hardness. We shot close to 5000 bullets that summer doing this test and even included some sixguns and DA in the test and never found where a softer alloy outshot a harder one. Now you have to keep one thing in mind. The guns used were mine and my buddys and there was no mismatched chambers or bad bores as we either fix a problem or sell the gun. Soft bullets bumping up to fill a bore is a bandaid and a poor one at that for accuracy.

[StarMetal]

i will agree with the above posts. try .358 if they will chamber and cast with a harder alloy. Most every semi auto handgun ive worked loads up for does much better with harder alloys. Most of them have very shallow rifling compared to a revolver or rifle. the harder bullets also help prevent damage to the bullet as it travels up the feed ramp and into the chamber. I use at least a #2 alloy for semi autos and sometimes go to 5050 ww/lyno. We did a ton of testing a few years back with a slug of 1911s and some 40 and 9mm handguns and in EVERY case accuracy improved as we went up in steps from 5050 ww/pure to strainght linotype. We had a few that would not improve between one step or the other but all improved over the test and not one shot worse with any increase in alloy hardness. We shot close to 5000 bullets that summer doing this test and even included some sixguns and DA in the test and never found where a softer alloy outshot a harder one. Now you have to keep one thing in mind. The guns used were mine and my buddys and there was no mismatched chambers or bad bores as we either fix a problem or sell the gun. Soft bullets bumping up to fill a bore is a bandaid and a poor one at that for accuracy.

Lloyd,

I find that interesting. I currently have 4 9mm's. P 38 Walther, Browing Hi-Power, and a match 1911. Of the three the P38 is the only one with a fat groove. I just recently put the match 1911 together with a Nowlin stainless match barrel. The groove on it .353....the tightest I've seen so far. Also the chamber is so tight I can't really chamber a cartridge with a bullet much over .354. I'm using a 50/50 alloy in it also, but mine is lead/ww's. Now I'm just shooting target load with 4.5 grs of Unique and I'm not getting any stripping or leading. Let me tell you to that this Nowlin barrel has mighty shallow, mighty shallow grooves too. I was kind of concerned about it at first. You may think this funny, but I'm a tad upset it outshoots my tuned 45 acp's. The reason is, well the 45's are my babies....love that caliber. Biggest problem I had with it was finding reliable feeding magazines. The Colt mag was just so so. The I bought a Megar and it's great. I thought I'd try one of the new Wilson tacticals and did. Won't feed even one round and that's either one at a time or full magazine. Thank God it works great in my 1911 30 Luger conversion.

By the way how's that 50 Beowulf shooting cast?

Joe

[bobthenailer]

got 2 1911s 0ne in 9mm with a extra kart 38 super barrel and another pistol in 38 super with a nowlin barrel & comp assy, both guns shoot better with bullets sized to .357 dia, i use WW @ 25 bhn waterdropped from the mould and hard lube, i run a 12 lb spring in my comp gun and a 16 1/2 lb spring in the other , when my comp gun was new i had to use a 10 lb spring until i fired a few hundred rounds to break it in . i ive had excellent results with wilson mags in my 45s and 38 supers , i think i have about 15 mags and have been useing them since the mid to late 80s

[03lover]

I did slug the bore of this 9mm as soon as I received it. It has a groove diameter of .3557".

Like I said before, the tight chamber prevents me from using .358" diameter bullets because I have too many failures to go into battery with them. I can get away using .357" diameter bullets and have some loaded up for testing.

Another problem I have been running into with the tight chamber is too high a pressure with loads well below maximum, when I take the average starting load and average maximun loads from six different manuals. I am using Unique and 231 mostly with the 115gr. jacketed bullets and lighter cast bullets. The darn gun can't even cycle with the starting powder charges and primers start to flatten before I get near the suggested maximum. I suspect the tight chamber is not providing enough room for the shell casing to release the bullet without interference from the chamber walls. I have switched to AA 7 and it does help, but all the lower powder charges fail to cycle the gun. Only the near maximum loads cycle the gun, but without the excess pressure.

I probably should get the chamber checked out and if it needs to be opened up to correct the tightness, then that is the time to do it. All the testing in world will not correct a possible chamber problem, and it would only serve to use up a lot of good loading supplies.

I have a lot of testing to do, thanks to the many suggestions I have received here. It will take some time as it is still winter here in Minnesota and I have to take advantage of those days when the temperature is around 30 degrees or more and wind isn't out of the north. On those days I can heat my enclosed shooting bench so I can shoot in relative comfort.

I have started to have bad feelings about these 9mm and 38 Supers. I have burned up more ammo with little success in these two guns than any others I own. They are becoming a real pain in the brass. I am thinking I should have stayed with 45 ACP's. It is pretty hard to find a problem with them. I have two 1911 45 ACP's and have no problems coming up with good accurate loads without leading problems.