bulged necks

[acemedic13]

I have been loading some boolits for my 30-30. Well...I have been trying to. As I go to seat them in the case the necks bulge out or the case crushes down. I started by using an unloaded case to set my dies up and get it all set. Everything went smooth with that. When I went to load some live rounds all but one round had the neck bulge or the case smashed down. Tried several different boolits with the same result. I am loading .311 boolits from several different molds. What is the max boolit diameter for the 30-30? These are for my 94 Winchester. The few that loaded went in great and shot fantastic. It was just that I only loaded 3 out of 10. Any thoughts? Thanks. Joel

[405]

Sounds like the bullet is oversize for entry into the neck mouth. If that's the case then you need a neck expanding/belling die that will open the neck up enough. If the .311's shot well I'd stick with that diameter bullet.

With the larger than normal cast bullets (common anyway) I like the Lyman type M die or one of the custom expanders available. You may need to run the case neck onto the expander past the first step and into the belling flare to put a slight "bell" on the mouth. Also, its a good idea that after resizing the cases to use a tapered inside neck chamferring tool to also ease the entry of the bullet into the neck. The proper neck expander for the cast bullet is one of the secrets for good, accurate loads. The expander diameter should be about .001" under the diameter of the bullet- so with your bullet diameter of .311" the "ideal" expander diameter would be about .310". With either plain base or gas checked bullets I like to be able to finger seat the bullet into the mouth about 1/8" or so before putting the round into the seating die for final OAL seating.

And, having said all that one other possibility. The bullet seating die may be set down too far. To adjust... remove bullet seating stem, back out die a few turns, run a sized case up into the die, turn die down until the roll crimp shoulder in the die contacts the case mouth, lower case, turn the die down a smidge (1/8 turn?) and lock in place, run case back up into die to check for proper roll crimp. The roll crimp should be just barely a nudge into the crimp groove on the bullet. Over-crimping can ruin consistent neck tension, even reduce neck tension and can ruin accuracy.

[stocker]

1. Not chamfering case mouths
2. Not belling case mouths
3. Expander button is too small- what does your interior case mouth measure after sizing? What does your expander button measure? Do case necks need annealing to prevent spring back?
4. Crimp shoulder in die is crushing case down. Back die out if this is the case until you just get enough crimp
5. Boolits are simply too large relative to expander button. Try .309 or .310. Have you slugged the bore of your rifle? Not much need to go larger than .002 over

Your choice(s) from above

[acemedic13]

xxxxxxx

[oneokie]

Joel, the standard 30 cal. expander button is .306". If your boolits are .311", that is .005" difference. Something is going to give.

As has been mentioned, A "M" type expander die will help. You will have to match the expander to your boolit size though. Expander size of .001" less than boolit diameter is best.

[Pepe Ray]

In a pinch!!
Do you have access to other dies?
303 Brit
7.65 Argie
7.7 Jap
Any of these will have larger neck expansion dies that just may be what you need.
Worth a try anyhow.
NOT for case sizing. Just use the expander plugs.
Pepe Ray

[w30wcf]

acemedic13,

Sorry to learn of your troubles. .311 diameter bullets are what I use in all my .30-30's (7). It could be that your sizing die is sizing the neck down a bit too much, and if your neck expander is not expanding the neck enough that would not help matters.

Personally, I have been using a Lee collet die to neck size for the past 10 years or so with complete satisfaction. You can adjust it to size the neck to the amount you want. I then use a Lyman "M" die to expand the entrance to the neck.

To help expand the entrance to your case necks, use a .308" jacketed bullet and seat it about 1/16" to 3/32" into the case neck. Then, grabbing the case with your left hand (if you're right handed) and the bullet with you're right, put pressure on the bullet, pushing it toward the outside of the case 360 deg. around. That will open the case neck opening.

Hopefully, that helps.

w30wcf

[Lloyd Smale]

try a lyman M die to bell your case necks.

[acemedic13]

I keep seeing these "M" dies pop up. I am going to do my homework on them but, in the meantime. What the heck are they? Thanks guys. Joel...

[405]

Joel,
The neck expander dies that are used for cast bullet loading simply expand the neck in a separate operation using a separate die. Many of the Jbullet type dies (usually two die sets) have a primer decapping pin and neck expander on the same rod within the sizing die. For cast bullet loading most of the three die sets you see available have the neck expander die added to the basic two die set. The M die is the Lyman version. Other companies have similar neck expander dies for cast bullet loading.

Here's a link to Bearthooth's tech notes on modifying the M die for custom purposes. It does have good pictures of the neck expander within the M die and some explanation of function. While the tech notes are aimed at customizing these dies, the information is still useful for showing how they work.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/39

[northmn]

Another good little case belling die is the Lee universal. I have one as I load a variety of cartridges. A cas bell is a bell. Another possibility is that the bullets arenot starting straight. The 30-30 is usually a pretty easy cartridge to reload. Likely as other have suggested, the fit is too tight and a better expander is needed.

Northmn

[DLCTEX]

+1 on the Lee collet die and the Lee universal flaring die.

[Larry Gibson]

try a lyman M die to bell your case necks.

acemedic13

Like everyone else says, get the M-die. If you continue to use .311' bullets get the .31 M-die instead of the .30 die. Also as you full length size the cases the OAL of the case will increase. If the crimp part of the seater die is set to close you will have problems from that. Either you trim the cases or reset the seater/crimp die every couple loads. You will also get incipient case head seperation in short order if that herter FL die is sizing at max. The solution is to get the RCBS X-Die if you want to continue to FL size the 30-30 cases. The OAL of the case will not increase, you will not have to trim and case life will be excellent. The other option is to neck size. I know everyone says you must full length size for the 30-30 in lever guns but this isn't the case with light to medium cast bullet loads. The Lee Collet die as suggested or the Redding NS die (what I use) are very good for this. I still suggest the M-die instead of the Lee universal belling die. The Mdie gives uniform internal case neck expansion and the Lee does not.

Larry Gibson

[Echo]

Ace. if the rounds load, and fire, and hit the target, then we are just talking esthetics. The loaded rounds LOOK weird, but shoot fine? What's the issue?

But the other guys are right. It appears that your dies are sizing down the neck too much, and not resizing them up enough. Maybe the decapper in your sizing die has a wrong-sized expander button.

Another thought. If indeed the die is reducing the neck too much, then expanding it out will work the brass excessively, causing it to fail (split) due to work-hardening after just a few firings. Pull the decapper spindle, measure the neck OD of a fired case, resize the case, then measure the OD after sizing. The diameter should be something like .328-.330, assuming .010 wall thickness of the neck and a .311 boolit and an interference fit of .001-.002 for neck tension. If the OD is less than that, then increasing the diameter of the neck portion of the sizing die is indicated, along with an expander button of .309-.310 diameter.

Meine zwei pfennig...

[Boomer Mikey]

Larry and the gang are telling you the right stuff... use a Lyman "M" die to expand case mouths. If you're loading 0.311" or larger bullets get the 31 "M" die. If you're using RCBS Cowboy dies get a 32-20 expander plug for the cowboy expander die; Midway has them.

Treat all bottle neck cases used with cast bullets the same as straight wall cases... partially size and de-prime without a neck sizing button then expand case necks with an "M" die. This is just one of the reasons why RCBS cowboy die sets work well with cast bullets... it's a 3 die system.

Case necks are as concentric as they can get after firing; why bend them out of shape pulling a crooked or offset sizing button through the case mouth? The 3 die system also helps control case length by pushing the case neck down instead of stretching the case neck longer with a sizer button.

Boomer :Fire:

[atr]

all these guys have the problem "nailed"...so i wont repeat...
except to say Ive found the 30-30 to be a pretty easy and forgiving case to load for...the only time I ever had a problem was when I didn't get the crip depth set right....then I was crushing case also....
have fun
atr

[acemedic13]

it xxx

[WyrTwister]

I have been loading some boolits for my 30-30. Well...I have been trying to. As I go to seat them in the case the necks bulge out or the case crushes down. I started by using an unloaded case to set my dies up and get it all set. Everything went smooth with that. When I went to load some live rounds all but one round had the neck bulge or the case smashed down. Tried several different boolits with the same result. I am loading .311 boolits from several different molds. What is the max boolit diameter for the 30-30? These are for my 94 Winchester. The few that loaded went in great and shot fantastic. It was just that I only loaded 3 out of 10. Any thoughts? Thanks. Joel



I use a .303 Brit or 7.62 Ruskie die to expand the mouth of .30-30 enough to get .312" cast bullets to start .

God bless
Wyr

[jimkim]

acemedic13,

Sorry to learn of your troubles. .311 diameter bullets are what I use in all my .30-30's (7). It could be that your sizing die is sizing the neck down a bit too much, and if your neck expander is not expanding the neck enough that would not help matters.

Personally, I have been using a Lee collet die to neck size for the past 10 years or so with complete satisfaction. You can adjust it to size the neck to the amount you want. I then use a Lyman "M" die to expand the entrance to the neck.

To help expand the entrance to your case necks, use a .308" jacketed bullet and seat it about 1/16" to 3/32" into the case neck. Then, grabbing the case with your left hand (if you're right handed) and the bullet with you're right, put pressure on the bullet, pushing it toward the outside of the case 360 deg. around. That will open the case neck opening.

Hopefully, that helps.

w30wcf

Yahtzee!!! We have a winner. I have a buddy that uses the Lee collet die. It works great. I use a regular die with an over sized expander then bell the mouth with the Lee Universal Case Expanding Die. Sometimes I don't size my cases at all, but that is usually when I am loading unsized(.314) Ranch Dog bullets and plinking(1100-1250fps) with them. I have used a 7.62x54R(.311) dia steel core bullet to expand the neck. If you have access to a lathe you can drill and tap the core to accept a GI issue(5.56mm NATO) cleaning rod, and use it to expand the neck. The cleaning rod is the correct diameter to fit in Lee dies. You can polish the bullet(or any expander you care to make) to different diameters for different bullets as well.

[MT Gianni]

Until your M die comes in you can bell the case mouths with a leatherman tool. Insert the needle nose pliers end in the case mouth and twist with a slight pressure. It will bell the case enough to seat the bullets. You need only a slight bell.

[acemedic13]

I decided to finally get back to this project. I used a chainsaw wrench to get those cases belled out to where they would take a .311 boolit. Worked better than the die did, much faster also. So there it is. Simple solution worked just fine. the leatherman idea was a another perfect simple solution ( I tried it BTW) worked great. Just gotta be careful not to waller them out to much or shave the inside of the neck. Tried several different primers also.....Won't revisit that post again, but they all worked great. Thanks for the tips guys. Joel