.44 Spcl and Mag Wad Cutter loads for target and Self Defense

[WDW44]

I received 200 Bullets from MATT"S BULLETS. They are VERY light weight 150 grain .44 Wad-cutters! Any ideas on loads to experiment with using these almost comical looking BOOLITS? They are sized to cylinder throats, and I will be using them in a Model 69 S&W 2.75" or a 2.25" Charter Arms Bulldog.[B]

Also Wad-cutters in 175, 185, 216 grain sizes using Bullseye, Unique/Universal/Red Dot. Any ideas or suggestions welcomed and THANKS!

[HWooldridge]

They will probably shoot low. I tried some of those from Matt's in my Ruger Old Model 45 with 7-1/2" barrel and ran out of elevation adjustment. However, it might not be as noticeable from a shorter barrel.

[gwpercle]

I'm a big Wadcutter Fan ... 38 Special , 357 and 41 magnum ...
My Daughter has a 44 Special and these are the favorite loads we have worked up
with the NOE 432-226-WC PB ... a 226 grain plain based, button nosed , cast wadcutter.

You can use these loads with the lighter ... 150 gr. , 175 gr. , 185 gr. and 216 gr. wadcutters safely and as a good starting point .
All loads were crimped in the top crimp groove on the button nose WC and loaded in 44 special cases .

6.0 grs. Unique
5.5 grs . W231 / HP-38
4.5 grs. Red Dot
4.5 grs. TiteGroup

These are easy shooting and accurate loads in my Daughter's snub-nosed Taurus 445.

I hope they help you :drinks:
Gary

[ShooterAZ]

I use a wadcutter boolit in my 5-1/2" Ruger 44 Mag SBH and in a 14" Contender. The mold is from Accurate and is labeled 43-190W. It casts closer to 200 grains with my alloy, and is very, very accurate with 6.0 grains of Bullseye in both guns.

[Caster1977]

Light loads tend to shoot low as they are out of the barrel before the recoil raises the trajectory. However, with wadcutters, your intended target for practical use is probably within 15 feet, so it shouldn't be of great concern.

[WDW44]

They will probably shoot low. I tried some of those from Matt's in my Ruger Old Model 45 with 7-1/2" barrel and ran out of elevation adjustment. However, it might not be as noticeable from a shorter barrel.

Thanks for the feed back! The 69 has adjustables, and the C.A. I am not troubled by filing down the front sight to s good self-defense load. Thanks again!

[WDW44]

I'm a big Wadcutter Fan ... 38 Special , 357 and 41 magnum ...
My Daughter has a 44 Special and these are the favorite loads we have worked up
with the NOE 432-226-WC PB ... a 226 grain plain based, button nosed , cast wadcutter.

You can use these loads with the lighter ... 150 gr. , 175 gr. , 185 gr. and 216 gr. wadcutters safely and as a good starting point .
All loads were crimped in the top crimp groove on the button nose WC and loaded in 44 special cases .

6.0 grs. Unique
5.5 grs . W231 / HP-38
4.5 grs. Red Dot
4.5 grs. TiteGroup

These are easy shooting and accurate loads in my Daughter's snub-nosed Taurus 445.

I hope they help you :drinks:
Gary

Deplorable here too!
Thanks for the GREAT and informative reply Gary!
I will use your info fo a good starting point!

[WDW44]

I use a wadcutter boolit in my 5-1/2" Ruger 44 Mag SBH and in a 14" Contender. The mold is from Accurate and is labeled 43-190W. It casts closer to 200 grains with my alloy, and is very, very accurate with 6.0 grains of Bullseye in both guns.

Thanks, I am a fan of Bullseye for these kinds of shooting!
I love the location in AZ where you are at, ShooterAZ.

[WDW44]

You bet Caster1977. I am not adverse to filing the sights to shoot point of aim when I settle on a load for my purposes!
WDW44

[StrawHat]

I am a big fan of wadcutters, but I like mine heavier. Sorry, no help to you!

Kevin

[WDW44]

Thanks Kevin. You may have some info to asisst me yet! I have been pondering loading 2- 150 grain wad-cutters stacked, and crimping the top one in the top grease groove. I am seeking 44 special light velocities (700-800fps), using Magnum cases in a S&W EDC Model 69, 2.75" barrel.

Any thoughts?

Thanks, WDW44 (aka Bill)

[Barry54]

Thanks Kevin. You may have some info to asisst me yet! I have been pondering loading 2- 150 grain wad-cutters stacked, and crimping the top one in the top grease groove. I am seeking 44 special light velocities (700-800fps), using Magnum cases in a S&W EDC Model 69, 2.75" barrel.

Any thoughts?

Thanks, WDW44 (aka Bill)

That will be running at magnum pressure I bet just due to seating depth. I’d compare the powder space to a 300 or 320 grain boolit and your two stacked. Make sure you have at least that much room.

[Ed_Shot]

I'm a big Wadcutter Fan ... 38 Special , 357 and 41 magnum ...
My Daughter has a 44 Special and these are the favorite loads we have worked up
with the NOE 432-226-WC PB ... a 226 grain plain based, button nosed , cast wadcutter.

You can use these loads with the lighter ... 150 gr. , 175 gr. , 185 gr. and 216 gr. wadcutters safely and as a good starting point .
All loads were crimped in the top crimp groove on the button nose WC and loaded in 44 special cases .

6.0 grs. Unique
5.5 grs . W231 / HP-38
4.5 grs. Red Dot
4.5 grs. TiteGroup

These are easy shooting and accurate loads in my Daughter's snub-nosed Taurus 445.

I hope they help you :drinks:
Gary

+ 1, Really like the NOE 432-266-WC-PB in a 44 Mag case, crimped in the top grove, over 5 gr. ~ 6 gr. Promo /Red Dot. Accurate and easy shooting in my SW 629.

[StrawHat]

I am a big fan of wadcutters, but I like mine heavier. Sorry, no help to you!

Kevin





Thanks Kevin. You may have some info to asisst me yet! I have been pondering loading 2- 150 grain wad-cutters stacked, and crimping the top one in the top grease groove. I am seeking 44 special light velocities (700-800fps), using Magnum cases in a S&W EDC Model 69, 2.75" barrel.

Any thoughts?

Thanks, WDW44 (aka Bill)

Bill,

When I said heavier, I never thought of a heavier 36 caliber boolit. I was talking about a 240 grain 45 caliber boolit, specifically the SAECO 453.

Deep seating boolits will skyrocket pressures beyond the magnum. There is an image of deep seating and associated pressures. I will try to find it.

Kevin

[WDW44]

Will do. Having loaded for 50 years now, I am very cautious of over loading and signs of pressue. I am thinkin og using 5.0 grains Unique, but will find a 300 cast boolit and see how much room there is. Thanks for the reply!

[Kosh75287]

I received 200 Bullets from MATT"S BULLETS. They are VERY light weight 150 grain .44 Wad-cutters! Any ideas on loads to experiment with using these almost comical looking BOOLITS? They are sized to cylinder throats, and I will be using them in a Model 69 S&W 2.75" or a 2.25" Charter Arms Bulldog.[B] Also, Wad-cutters in 175, 185, 216 grain sizes using Bullseye, Unique/Universal/Red Dot. Any ideas or suggestions welcomed and THANKS!

Find an old SPEER reloading manual, like a #9, #10, or #11. They have load data for round balls in .44 Spl., .45 Colt, and (if memory serves) .45 ACP. When these manuals were published, Hodgdon Universal was not yet marketed, but Bullseye, Unique, and Red Dot certainly were. Charge weights were light and velocities were low, but weights of the round balls should be close enough to the lighter bullets you mention to extrapolate something that will work.
When you mentioned loading more than one projectile per case, this load data came to mind because charge weights are light enough that you may not find yourself in magnum-pressure territory, but still stout enough that both projectiles will exit the barrel (have a brass hammer and brass rod handy, just in case).
Decades ago, I experimented in .45 Colt and .45 ACP using 185-200 gr. LSWCs, with .44 and .45 caliber lead balls pressed into the case before seating the LSWCs. I was hoping for loads that would disperse at 7-10 yards to respond to a mob-like onslaught. I obtained half-way decent results in the .45 Colt, but when I elevated charges in .45 ACP high enough to reliably operate the slide, the projectiles would impact very close to, or right on top of each other, at distances under 20 yards.
I guess there MAY be some application for such loads, but they did not give me what I was looking for.

[WDW44]

Find an old SPEER reloading manual, like a #9, #10, or #11. They have load data for round balls in .44 Spl., .45 Colt, and (if memory serves) .45 ACP. When these manuals were published, Hodgdon Universal was not yet marketed, but Bullseye, Unique, and Red Dot certainly were. Charge weights were light and velocities were low, but weights of the round balls should be close enough to the lighter bullets you mention to extrapolate something that will work.
When you mentioned loading more than one projectile per case, this load data came to mind because charge weights are light enough that you may not find yourself in magnum-pressure territory, but still stout enough that both projectiles will exit the barrel (have a brass hammer and brass rod handy, just in case).
Decades ago, I experimented in .45 Colt and .45 ACP using 185-200 gr. LSWCs, with .44 and .45 caliber lead balls pressed into the case before seating the LSWCs. I was hoping for loads that would disperse at 7-10 yards to respond to a mob-like onslaught. I obtained half-way decent results in the .45 Colt, but when I elevated charges in .45 ACP high enough to reliably operate the slide, the projectiles would impact very close to, or right on top of each other, at distances under 20 yards.
I guess there MAY be some application for such loads, but they did not give me what I was looking for.

GREAT INFO! Thanks! I have the SPEER #9 but it has no roundball loads, sadly, for that sounds interesting to play with. These 150 WC are HARD cast, but I have wondered about the two fusing together due to either heat or pressure. I guess all the discussion about "double tap them" makes me hopeful I can double tap every target, paper or culprit withone pull of the trigger. With a 5 shot S&W M69 2.75" that would about equal double taps with .38/.357 or 9mm. It would also give 10 impacts per cylinder albeit on only 5 targets, but with the bigger diameter bullet as a plus.

Again, thanks for your input, and I will load a few tests soon and report back the results. I will try to Chronograph them so the velocity facts will be there if I can find a range that will allow me to set one up and try. I will shoot targets to see how they print while chrono-ing them. Later...

[WDW44]

Bill,

When I said heavier, I never thought of a heavier 36 caliber boolit. I was talking about a 240 grain 45 caliber boolit, specifically the SAECO 453.

Deep seating boolits will skyrocket pressures beyond the magnum. There is an image of deep seating and associated pressures. I will try to find it.

Kevin

I'm not speaking of 36 caliber either. These 150grainers are .431". As to seating depth, these 150's have three lube grooves and my intent is to clean out the top two, and crip into the 2nd from the top groove. My measuring indicates the amount of boolit in the case is almost identical to a 300 cast .44 boolit, so maybe I am getting closer to my answer needed.

Thanks for your input, I am using it in every thought process regarding this "idea".

[StrawHat]

I'm not speaking of 36 caliber either. These 150grainers are .431". As to seating depth, these 150's have three lube grooves and my intent is to clean out the top two, and crip into the 2nd from the top groove. My measuring indicates the amount of boolit in the case is almost identical to a 300 cast .44 boolit, so maybe I am getting closer to my answer needed.

Thanks for your input, I am using it in every thought process regarding this "idea".


Not so much a wadcutter as a wafer! Crimping in the second groove gives you the same amount in the case as a 300 grain boolit? How about if you crimp int the bottom groove?

What velocity are you striving to achieve? Purpose of the loads? Obviously, I have not reread the thread so, please, be patient.

Kevin

[WDW44]

Not so much a wadcutter as a wafer! Crimping in the second groove gives you the same amount in the case as a 300 grain boolit? How about if you crimp int the bottom groove?

What velocity are you striving to achieve? Purpose of the loads? Obviously, I have not reread the thread so, please, be patient.

Kevin

No problem Kevin, thanks for the feedback! My intent is to shoot for 650-800fps, using 44 mag cases perhaps. The thought is to double tap any critters needing it, paper or two legged. I will watch for pressure and chrono them if I can find a place to shoot which will allow me to set mine up. Using my EDC S&W Model 69 with 2.75". I am looking at 5 grains Unique/Universal of maybe buy and try some reddot? Just playing at the possibility. Across the room, say 12-18', dispersement of 1-3"?

Who knows, I might use the data in a short story or story poem before I die... As my post show, and possibly lie about, I enjoy words and using them. As an example, from a poem i wrote to my dad about his experiences in WWII, titled:
CEASE FIRE

Whose blasts they were we never knew, that sent us to that fated spot,
while ‘round about us loudly flew the terror of the shot.
I came there first, on fearful stride to flee the thundering din
and he came running too to hide, and quickly tumbled in.
With mouths agape, and eyes held wide, we crouched together, yet alone.
From foreign soils, forced here to hide. Our taught angers now unknown.
With unspoken consent we accepted each, and nodded a smile to show
the lesson learned, war sought not to teach. Our enemy we never know.

The shelling ceased, and we knew not where the thing that brought us to this rest
had come, nor did we care, for we had passed a far greater test.

He grinned a grin and scrambled from the hole given us in which to hide
and disappeared, much as he had come. We both were changed inside.

Perhaps we’ll meet again, across these rifle sights, who can tell how it all will end.
Yet, for a moment then in crashing night, we’d hidden there as friends.

August 1987 Bill Welch

Take care Kevin, and thanks again.

[MT Gianni]

Putting lube in a single groove and loading two might work well in guns with longer barrels. While the first thought would be to use 300 gr data the bullet oal will be different. Owning a model 69 and having owned a CA Bulldog, I would not shoot double loads in the CA.

[WDW44]

Putting lube in a single groove and loading two might work well in guns with longer barrels. While the first thought would be to use 300 gr data the bullet oal will be different. Owning a model 69 and having owned a CA Bulldog, I would not shoot double loads in the CA.

Neither will I, and thanks for the input. I have owned and caried CA Bulldogs since 1980, and I know they are strong enough, but RECOIL can prohibit the shooting of them. :)

[skeettx]

Lyman 429352 ( the little campbell's soup can) is AWESOME

Especially from a Charter Arms 44 Special Bulldog

Mike

[WDW44]

Lyman 429352 ( the little campbell's soup can) is AWESOME

Especially from a Charter Arms 44 Special Bulldog

Mike

Thanks Mike! I love WC bullets and have some I will use as you stated.

[Forrest r]

A bit of a head scratcher:

Did a little testing in a 2 1/2" bbl'd ca bulldog. Used power pistol (8.0gr), a standard pressure load. For bullets I used a 245gr swc hp and a 200gr type III wc. The 2 bullets side by side, the 245gr swc hp seats deeper in the case/has a longer body to the crimp groove.
https://i.imgur.com/wf9hieh.jpg

After setting up a chronograph and test target, I shot 5-shot groups @ 25ft with both bullets using a 6 0-clock hold on the 1" white center bull. The right target is that test target.
https://i.imgur.com/ld6RTZd.jpg

The 245gr bullet did 830fps while the 200gr bullet did 835fps. Both were cast from the same alloy, sized the same diameter, used the same reloading dies, shot in the same revolver on the same day, etc.

You'd think that the heavier deeper seating 245gr bullet would have had the higher velocity. I believe the difference is the bullet bases and more specifically. The thinner bullet base/bottom drive band of the 200gr wc bullet compressed/sealed faster/better with the +/- 15,000psi load than the stronger/larger 245gr bullet's bottom drive band.

This made that 8.0gr of pp/200gr wc combo more efficient creating higher velocities.

The 200gr bullet was on target & centered. The 245gr bullet shot right. This is from my failing/weak grip and the right-hand twist bbl.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK I went down this .44 cal. Light Boolit Rat Hole several years back. I started with a M29 8 3/8" back in the day (1976). I loaded both Special Cases and Magnum Cases with the same boolits but different loads. I first tried Bullseye and it just made a mess out of the gun, so I started loading lighter loads of H110 in my Special Cases with a Lee 240 gr SWCGC. They were safe because there was enough powder in the case so that flash over couldn't occur. I actually read about this in 1978. Magnum cases all got the same boolit with 22-24 gr of H110. Sold the gun and time passed.

Then I got a S&W 696. It was so cool that I thought I was going to get Great Results out of my 190 gr SWC's from Magma Moulds. Great Boolits, some would actually hit the target at 7 yards if I held low enough?

I talked to Brian Pearce about this problem and he suggested using Boolits with more Bearing Surface like .429421 or .429244. He knew Elmer Keith personally and told me that Elmer had told him that both the .44 Special and .44 Magnums were designed around 240-260 gr bullets. Brian told me that his Research had shown a good midrange load for the 240 gr boolits was 6.0 gr of W231 for Specials and 8.0 gr of W231 for Magnum Cases with the 429421 Boolit.. The 696 shot to the sights on the very first shot. My SBH Bisley with a 5" bbl shot to the sights with the Midrange Magnum Loads out of the box.

So much for Light Load Development!

My Magnum loads for the SBH and my Marlin 1894 CB 24" are both 23 gr of H110 with the Thompson 429244GC. 240-260gr depending on the nose of the Boolit.(HP or Solid) @1600 fps from the Rifle. 1250 to1300 from the SBH.

I have MP Moulds for both of these Boolits and they offer the option of Solids or 3 different HP's, one being the Pentagonal HP like the one shown above by Forrest. These Moulds produce perfect Boolits!

Elmer Keith invented the .44 Magnum and he did it by running his 429421 SWC Boolits in very hot .44 Special Loads using 2400 powder. When the .44 Magnum came out it was simply made longer so it wouldn't fit in a .44 Special Revolver for obvious Safety Reasons and performance was similar to Keith's Souped Up Special loads..

However the longer bearing surface of the Keith Style SWC Boolits has proven to be the most accurate of all previous attempts at .44 cal. bullets simply because of the balance. It is heavier in the rear and the rear end of the Boolit is the Steering End. And this is true across all speed ranges.

The problem with the shorter/lighter boolits is that the are nearly as wide as they are long, hence they don't fly as strait as the Longer Keith Style Bullets which benefit more from gyroscopic stabilization than a shorter bullet which wants to yaw off it's centerline more easily.

I have a Lee 310 gr mould but only shot some of them once at Short Range Silhouette. They were not nearly as accurate in my gun with a 1:38 twist barrel as the 260 gr 429244GC solids are and I can easily drive those boolits at 1800 fps. I would not hesitate to shoot an Elk with that gun and 260 gr solids. Plenty of guys have shot Elk with a .44 Magnum Pistol which is running about 400 fps slower than my 24" rifle.

So the reason why I went to all the trouble of writing this post was to suggest that you try .240 SWC's in your pistols with 6.0 gr of W231/HP-38 and see what happens. I think you will find that your gun shoots to the sights and all of a sudden is useful for something. Mouse Fart Loads are not good for much of anything that I have seen.

My .02 EVMV. (End Value to you May Vary)

Randy

.

[pettypace]

I received 200 Bullets from MATT"S BULLETS. They are VERY light weight 150 grain .44 Wad-cutters! Any ideas on loads to experiment with using these almost comical looking BOOLITS? They are sized to cylinder throats, and I will be using them in a Model 69 S&W 2.75" or a 2.25" Charter Arms Bulldog.[B]

Also Wad-cutters in 175, 185, 216 grain sizes using Bullseye, Unique/Universal/Red Dot. Any ideas or suggestions welcomed and THANKS!

https://rewebster.org/pics/Bulldog_Target_small.jpg

But I've since gone to this bullet for better penetration and more reliable separation: https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-150M

[PhatForrest]

I love Accurate’s 43-240W. It’s an upscaled copy of the Lyman 358432, which is probably my favorite bullet design of all time. Feeds well in leverguns too.

[WDW44]

https://rewebster.org/pics/Bulldog_Target_small.jpg

But I've since gone to this bullet for better penetration and more reliable separation: https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-150M

Please explain what you mean by "the third shot went full auto" on the target pic? I dont understand your terminology. If you mean another cartridge ignited at the same time I would expect to see severe firearm damage.

I appreciate your reply and the link to the bullets you used/are using.

Later, WDW44