.38-55 head scratcher

[Abert Rim]

I recently came into a Marlin 336 rebarreled with a 28-inch Douglas .375 barrel with 1:14 twist and chambered to .38-55. I sized some Lee 379-250s RFs cast of range scrap and tumbled them in liquid Alox, then loaded them in Winchester brass, WLR primers, over 23.5 grains of 2400 and repaired to the range. Imagine my complete surprise at finding this on my 50-yard target. I am expecting some Sierra 200 grain .375 JSPs from Grafs and will load and shoot a sample of them, expecting accuracy. The crown of the muzzle looks to be perfect.

https://i.postimg.cc/sQgTmJqc/image-67168257.jpg (https://postimg.cc/sQgTmJqc)

[Texas by God]

Yikes. That ain’t good.


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[ascast]

Great stopping power ! I had a '93 Marlin that did that years ago. It was the 330 grn Hudson bullet. I figured it was too long for the twist rate. It shot the smaller bullets OK. Are you sure there was no huge base deformation? And groove dia? I am not familiar with 2400 but it seems fast enough. Maybe try IMR 4198 SAY 18 GRN AND GO UP FROM THERE. opps Maybe 8 grns Unique and go up. Lets us know what you find

[15meter]

Had a guy show up at a military shoot once with a rifle that shot like that. Almost disqualified him for illegal line cutters.

He won the match.

Almost every shot was in the black, sideways.

Who woulda thunk that a rifle could shoot that well, sideways. Don't remember the caliber, could have been 7.5x55 Swiss.

[beltfed]

Slug the barrel. I may possibly be a (old spec) .378+ barrel
beltfed/arnie

[Abert Rim]

Thanks Arnie. Sorry for the double post.

[Abert Rim]

Grooves measure .375.

[725]

Just a thought; with that twist rate, I'd think the lighter bullet would do better. Those Sierra 200gr'er's would be my choice for the next testing at the range. Good luck.

[gnostic]

At first look I thought that was a three shot group. Was there any lead in the barrel?

[G W Wade]

Curious. What did the rest group look like.? GW

[Delkal]

2400 needs some pressure to burn completely. While your load sounds like plenty of powder (I didn't check) if you were getting variable ignition the sideways load could be from a case that didn't ignite completely and had too low of a velocity to stabilize. Like others have questioned was the rest of the groups OK? Did you notice a lot of unburnt powder or a difference in recoil?

I would try another powder. Maybe a pistol powder for light loads or an IMR powder for standard velocity. And if you have a chrony use it and check the velocity and ES.

[gunther]

Look at an older Lyman cast bullet manual, and choose a Red Dot load appropriate to cast bullet weight.

[Dan Cash]

Your problem is not the powder charge, it is bullet fit. As already noted, your .38-55 is a true .38-55 which will require a nominal .378 bullet. Many current rebore and rebarrel specialists ream out a barrel to .375 (Win) specs and call it a .38-55 which it is not. Slug your barrel and get a mould that gives measured diameter +.002 or so. My original .38-55 Marlin 1893 wants a .380 bullet. You will find joy.

[Texas by God]

That actually reminds me of that time I loaded my .377” 250 gr Lees in .410 shotgun shells as a “sabot slug”……[emoji41]


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[herian67]

Barrel clean and not leaded?

[Doog-Meister]

Slug the bore and check the booolit diameter. I have a NEF .38-55 that has a .379 bore. Have 2 moulds that drop boolits at .378 and .379 dia that go thru the target sideways. Went to the Lee 380681 mould dropping boolits at .381 to get it to stop doing what your pics show. Now shoots great, and round holes in the target.

[country gent]

Wondering if the bullet is stripping in the rifling? How does the bore look after shooting a few?

I shoot a 350 grain nasa bullet in my 38-55 at 1200 fps with great accuracy. Your 250 grn should be good as long as it fits the bore throat and is nt being push to hard to fast.

[Delkal]

There are 2 identical threads posted minutes apart with the same title in the leverguns forum. There are similar comments in the other one.

The threads should be combined.

[nvbirdman]

Will an unsized boolit loaded into a cartridge chamber? Try a few of those.

[Rockindaddy]

Abert: Send your address and I will send you some .382" cast boolits you can size to .002 over your groove diameter. My old 1893 Marlin 38-55 slugs .380". My .382" boolits shoot ragety 5shot holes at 50yds. Your 1 in 14" twist is spinning the boolit fast enough. You should be able to shoot 300 grainers with no trouble. Best regards.

[flatnose]

.002 over groove dia. 4759 if you are lucky to have some if not 5744. Data for 5744 on Hodgon website. You wont regret this.

[Abert Rim]

Fellas thanks. The rifle was barreled with a Douglas .375 groove barrel and can be loaded as a .38-55 or a .375 Winchester. It was custom built by a retired Army armorer and gunsmith in Iowa for a gentlemen who wanted a very accurate rifle for lever gun competition. He then developed Parkinson's and had to sell all his guns.
This is the rifle I am working with. Repeat: This barrel is .366 on the lands and .375 in the grooves -- not a .378, not a .380, not a .382. I know about the larger .38-55 groove diameters. I actually went into commercial swaging some years ago after reading a Ken Waters piece on bullets he'd love to see available again for the "old ones" to produce a .379 softpoint specifically for the older rifles and the Marlin Cowboy. Ken was so tickled when I sent him a box, explaining that he was the inspiration for me spending a lot of money with Dave Corbin that he wrote up my "Boer Bullet Co." bullets in Handloader -- and sent me a Christmas card.
So I return to scratching my head as to why a bullet sized .376 and fired in a squeaky clean barrel with a .375 groove should keyhole wildly. Only two of the five rounds I fired struck the target paper -- sideways of course, and the rest struck the frame. I have some loads put up with 5744, but will assemble some over 9 grains of Trail Boss (per the Lyman 51st edition) to see if slowing things way down might help.

[Abert Rim]

Delkal, I agree. I think a moderator has to do it. I don't know how.

[Mk42gunner]

A 1:14" twist should be more than sufficient for anything you can load through the action. Your dimensions sound good to me, and you say the crown is good.

What about the throat? Maybe do a chamber cast. Although I don't see how a large or "bad" throat could cause keyholing.

If all else fails, try a larger boolit, not terribly large, just a few thousandths larger like .377 or .378".

Good luck,

Robert

[G W Wade]

I am shooting something similar , an RCBS 255 over 16 gr 2400 for 1300 fps ( factory duplicate 38/55) and everything is great. Have not checked my book but 23.5 sounds extreme. Good Luck GW

[rockrat]

Might be pushing them a bit too fast for a non-gas checked boolit. Try powder coating a few and size to about .377" and try and as an alternative, drop the charge back to about 18 gr. or so with the boolit you are casting, non powder coated.

[indian joe]

2400 needs some pressure to burn completely. While your load sounds like plenty of powder (I didn't check) if you were getting variable ignition the sideways load could be from a case that didn't ignite completely and had too low of a velocity to stabilize. Like others have questioned was the rest of the groups OK? Did you notice a lot of unburnt powder or a difference in recoil?

I would try another powder. Maybe a pistol powder for light loads or an IMR powder for standard velocity. And if you have a chrony use it and check the velocity and ES.

I dont know 2400 but my old Lyman book says 16 to 19 grains under a 255 grain cast ---is 23.5 a bit stiff ?
I proly go with the others that say boolit fit - first thing to try is unsized -

[Delkal]

I still think this is due to velocity. Shooting a bullet a few thousandths under bore diameter does not make a bullet keyhole like that at 50 yards. If the velocity is too low the bullet will not stabilize and if it is too high it could strip the rifling and tumble. Was the barrel heavily leaded after a few shots? Do you have a chrony?

[akajun]

ill add also slug both ends of the barrel, make sure that the muzzle is smaller than the breach, at least the same size.

[Delkal]

Just looked in Lyman 41st edition and for a 38-55 with a 250 grain plain base (375248) the max of 2400 was 18.7 grains and suggested was 15.0 grains. They also had a suggested load of 10.6 grains unique (no max). The suggested loads were from 1200-1300 fps.

[JFE]

My guess is you’re pushing a PB bullet too fast. Out of a 28” barrel 23.5gr of 2400 behind that pill is probably doing close to 2000fps. Way too fast for a PB bullet. You didn’t mention whether your load leaded your barrel.

Try a lower velocity load, something generating less than 1400fps.

[Pereira]

I dont know 2400 but my old Lyman book says 16 to 19 grains under a 255 grain cast ---is 23.5 a bit stiff ?
I proly go with the others that say boolit fit - first thing to try is unsized -

I agree as to the fact that 23.5 is a bit much.
I have a Marlin Cowboy with the 24" tube and 15.0 grs. of 2400 with either a 250 or 255 gr pill is quite accurate.
10.0 grs of Unique over a 240-245 pill works well also, haven't tried it yet but bet a 250 grainer would work as well.
The guy I bought it from used it for long range dinger ringing, and his favorite for that was 21.0 grs of IMR 4198 and a 260 gr pill.
I've used that load with some 255 gr. that was pretty good.

RP

[koger]

I would try between 20-24 grain of IMR 4198, what my 38/55s all love.

[koger]

The lee bullet drops at 265 grs with my alloy of half wheel weights/soft lead, plain base, PC or lube it shoots great out to 600 yds as far as I have shot it.

[Delkal]

My guess is you’re pushing a PB bullet too fast. Out of a 28” barrel 23.5gr of 2400 behind that pill is probably doing close to 2000fps. Way too fast for a PB bullet. You didn’t mention whether your load leaded your barrel.

Try a lower velocity load, something generating less than 1400fps.

And don't forget the OP cast the bullets out of range scrap that is ~BHN=10 if he is lucky.

Pushing a soft plain based bullet to ~2000 fps? Seems like this isn't really a head scratcher.

[Abert Rim]

Lyman 51st shows 1700-1800 but yes, that's probably much too fast for range scrap. I have some loaded way down around 1300 and will see how they do. Taking a closer look, I do see some leading. Probably put way too much faith in Lee Liquid Alox.[smilie=1:

[gc45]

Your bore and groove sounds fine. Definately an overload. Dump the 2400 and like another said try 5744 using published powder charges only, Use cast boolits that are semi soft, BN10 works great for this, make them .001 to .002 over groove dia. 15,000 rds and still going, it just works. .375 is smaller than origional 38-55 rifles, many needing .380 Boolits to shoot well. IMO- your barrel is more the modern size and suited for jacketed bullets in modern steels and why cast is great because, we make them to a proper size that with good lube seals up with shooting them.

[indian joe]

have a 94 winchester comemorative (Oliver F Winchester) in 38/55 - shoots that LEE 250 grain boolit straight from the mold over blackpowder - that combo is seriously accurate

[Abert Rim]

Joe, I will load some with Olde Eynesford, just because it is the right thing to do.8-)
The more I think about these issues and this thread the more embarrassed I am that it did not occur to me the velocities expected were too much to ask of the Lee bullet with Alox only. I powdered coated some this morning and will try those at around 1600 or so and bet they will be fine.
I am using published data, but I think a second issue is for me to quit thinking of this as a .375 Winchester and focus on it as a .38-55 with tight bore and relatively fast twist. I have reached the age where it is easier to get confused, sorry to confess!:oops:
Bill

[Abert Rim]

Made up a sample of five rounds of the Lee bullet, powder coated and hand-lubed with SPG over 40 grains Olde Eynsford FFg drop-tubed, wad seated and compressed by bullet seating. These ought to be fun.

[indian joe]

Joe, I will load some with Olde Eynesford, just because it is the right thing to do.8-)
The more I think about these issues and this thread the more embarrassed I am that it did not occur to me the velocities expected were too much to ask of the Lee bullet with Alox only. I powdered coated some this morning and will try those at around 1600 or so and bet they will be fine.
I am using published data, but I think a second issue is for me to quit thinking of this as a .375 Winchester and focus on it as a .38-55 with tight bore and relatively fast twist. I have reached the age where it is easier to get confused, sorry to confess!:oops:
Bill

Bill I had a 375 big bore years ago, ran it full house with soft lead gas checked boolits, shot ok at the time - but ok then woulda been 4 - 6" at 100yards with the barrel sights - I was recoil soft those days and that thing booted - I sold it and when the 38/55 came along (nice wood, 24"inch octagonal barrel) I bought it. That gold plated piece sat on the rack with a box of ammo beside it for almost a year - I would take it down, oil it, put it back in its place, it came (supposedly) new in the box, unfired, I walked in there one lunch time and like it was mocking me from on high, grabbed it down with three rounds and a paper target, out the back and at 50 yards off a rest those three almost touched.
So now youre not unfired !!
A couple days later I shot a string of ten at 100yards my rest that day was a woven plastic fertiliser bag with a few shovels of dirt in it - stripped the gold plating off of the sharp edges on the underside of the action ----oooooops!
So now youre not New In Box anymore
Lets see can we make a blackpowder shooter out of this ?
Its one of the few Lever rifles I have seen that stays right on point as it hots up - a well made gun and a fine shooter (just a shame about the gold plate - blue finish woulda been better)
I just use that LEE 250 grain PB boolit, FFFg powder, one juice box wad over the powder, homemade blackpowder lube (50/50 beeswax and neatsfoot oil)

for yours I would forget the powder coat for blackpowder - its a hindrance - takes up space that would be better filled with grease lube

[Abert Rim]

Joe, the PC boolits would not be my first choice but I didn't have any others cast. I agree on the PC taking up valuable lube groove real estate, especially considering the lube has to control 28 inches of fouling.

[upnorthwis]

This is what worked for me. I've got a .38-55 94 Win made in 1898 that would keyhole half of them. I extended the bullet out so that I had to crush it into rifling by closing the lever. That took care of it.

[.45Cole]

Keep it! I wish i could teach my pony to stand up like that. You'll win some shoots with an awfully puzzled crowd!

[450 Fuller]

I think the larger bullet size sent to you should work. Also consider 4198 or 4227 powder or magnum primers.

[458mag]

Fellas thanks. The rifle was barreled with a Douglas .375 groove barrel and can be loaded as a .38-55 or a .375 Winchester. It was custom built by a retired Army armorer and gunsmith in Iowa for a gentlemen who wanted a very accurate rifle for lever gun competition. He then developed Parkinson's and had to sell all his guns.
This is the rifle I am working with. Repeat: This barrel is .366 on the lands and .375 in the grooves -- not a .378, not a .380, not a .382. I know about the larger .38-55 groove diameters. I actually went into commercial swaging some years ago after reading a Ken Waters piece on bullets he'd love to see available again for the "old ones" to produce a .379 softpoint specifically for the older rifles and the Marlin Cowboy. Ken was so tickled when I sent him a box, explaining that he was the inspiration for me spending a lot of money with Dave Corbin that he wrote up my "Boer Bullet Co." bullets in Handloader -- and sent me a Christmas card.
So I return to scratching my head as to why a bullet sized .376 and fired in a squeaky clean barrel with a .375 groove should keyhole wildly. Only two of the five rounds I fired struck the target paper -- sideways of course, and the rest struck the frame. I have some loads put up with 5744, but will assemble some over 9 grains of Trail Boss (per the Lyman 51st edition) to see if slowing things way down might help.

Shoot it side ways like the saggy pants gangsters.:Fire:

[Ramjet-SS]

I GC PC and lube for my Henry H024-3855 and drive the 255 grain WFN GC over 31.0 grains of H322 with awesome accuracy. My lead is 80-20 lino to plumbers lead. So they are hard. I size to .376 the He ry barrels dimensions are similar to yours same twist etc. I am thinking your lead is way to soft plus alox is not a great lube in my opinion.

Nice gun and caliber by the way….