Mountain Molds' Piledrive Jr alternative?

[Naphtali]

As most 45-70 class cartridge reloaders are aware, obtaining Beartooth Bullets' Piledriver Jr, the 425-grain version of the Piledriver, is very difficult to obtain. Has anyone successfully recreated the Piledriver Jr as a mold via Mountain Molds' web software?

I want to do such a recreation to eliminate 4-6-month delays, but I have no confidence in my ability to fill in the blanks myself. If anyone has, please E-mail or PM me.

[Crass Whackwords]

According to the Beartooth site, their piledriver has a 0.374" meplat (81%) and 0.450" crimp-to-nose length. There is no other helpful information provided, and the photos don't show a good frontal view.

The meplat doesn't look that big to my eyes, but it's hard to say just by looking at the photos, and it is hard to measure meplats accurately, anyway.

The Beartooth meplat appears to have a slight radius at the edge, to improve feeding. Nothing wrong with that, but a Mountain Molds meplat will not have the radiused edge.

It seems unlikely that the Beartooth piledriver has a full diameter front band, since a SAAMI 45/70 chamber doesn't have much in the way of a throat., and will not chamber a full diameter ogive. It might be prudent to make the front band bore diameter plus +0.001", which would be 0.451" in a conventional barrel..

The piledriver ogive appears to be a secant, with a very long radius.

Beartooth normally uses WW + 2% tin, but I would stick with straight clip-on wheelweight alloy. Tin is not helpful for casting a 425 grain bullet.

It is not hard to create a 425 grain bullet with the Mountain Molds program, just be sure that the nose will cycle and chamber in your rifle. In particular, beware of full diameter ogives. There are some examples of proven 45/70 designs on the Mountain Molds forum.

And for goodness sakes, stop paying money for store bought 45/70 bullets when you can make your own from humble wheelweights.

[Naphtali]

I have a few Piledrivers left. As far as I can tell, the only difference between the bullet weights occurs rear of the crimp groove. Having template in my possession does me little good because I am uncertain what I'm looking at. I have the same numbers you do, plus verification on bullets in my possession. I'm still pretty much at sea about nose profile. And I suspect that is very important when creating a .45-caliber lever action bullet with a .375-inch meplat.

[Crass Whackwords]

I have a few Piledrivers left.

So what is the diameter of the front band (just above the crimp groove) ???

[Naphtali]

I believe the dimensions you need to recreate the Piledriver Jr. are here??

Clarifications:
The dimension .435" is measured from nose to the top of the groove.

From nose downward, first band length .120".
First band O.D. .461".

From nose downward, second band length .100".
Second band O.D. .460"

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/Naphtalitlk/Piledriver_525-grain_LFN_GC.jpg

[Crass Whackwords]

We are still missing critical information -- the diameter and length of the front band.

But, judging from your picture, the front band appears to be full diameter (0.460") immediately above the crimp groove.

The front band appears to immediately taper -- in other words, there really is no front band, just an ogive.

Again, I am just going by the photo since I do not have a bullet to measure.

Here is a similar bullet created with the Mountain Molds program. http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr235/mountainmolds/piledriver.gif

That particular Mountain Molds example does have a full diameter front band 0.050" long. In order to chamber, there would need to be about 0.120" distance between the case mouth and the rifling. I don't know how that compares to the Piledriver.

When designing a bullet for a lever action, it is important to know the distance between the case mouth and the rifling, and make sure your bullet design will fit in that space.

You want the nose to be very close to the rifling, but on the other hand, the lever action does not have the camming force to engrave the nose as is sometimes done in bolt actions. The goal is to have the nose lightly "kiss" the rifling.

Because lever cartridges must be crimped, you cannot fine tune the "kiss" by adjusting the seating depth, as you can in a single shot or bolt action.

This is one reason why it is so tricky to design a bullet for a lever action.

It is very difficult to predict the fit of a gently tapered ogive. The MM program provides a guestimate -- in this case, it guestimated that a 0.121" rifle throat length would be required -- but that number can vary depending on casting tolerances, throat angles, and throat erosion..

For that reason, I prefer to use a stepped nose for lever actions, placing the step where the rifling begins, and stepping down to bore diameter. But that's just me, what do I know ?

Hope this helps. Sorry if I am giving you a hard time, but I don't want you to waste your money on a design that won't chamber. Be aware of the problems that can arise.

[hunterns]

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee193/hunterns/bullet-1.jpg

This mould I had made at mountain, not a great pic. It's 425 grain with a 75 % nose.

[Naphtali]

I edited the Clarifications portion of the Piledriver graphic to, I hope, include the omitted data.

[Crass Whackwords]

We aren't using the same language. Uh ..... let's see :coffee: by "front band," I mean the band just above the crimp groove.

Some bullets have a distinctive "front" band.

Other bullets will have a "front" band that blends into the ogive such that you can't really tell where the front band ends and the ogive begins. Hunterns' bullet is an example of this. Maybe he can tell you if he has any issues chambering his bullet in a Marlin ?

On a very few bullets, the ogive begins just above the crimp groove, and there is no front band per se. I'm thinking the Beartooth piledriver may be in this category.

I've never owned a Marlin 45/70, but I've seen a few chamber impressions from them. Marlins almost always have a SAAMI chamber -- not much throat to speak of, but a bit of space between the end of the case and the end of the chamber that sometimes leaves room for a full diameter front band. Sometimes.

Anyway, the design I posted is as close as Mountain Molds can come to the piledriver. It is certainly not an exact duplicate, and of particular concern, it may require a slighly longer throat than what the piledriver requires. There are workarounds -- reducing the front band diameter, or using the Bore Riding option to step the nose down to 0.450" diameter.

However, Mountain Molds cannot cut a zero length front band, because the boring bar has a certain width that cannot be avoided. Zero length front bands are usually cut with a cherry. I've seen a very few lathe bored in aluminum using a very pointy boring bar, but Mountain Molds does not use pointy boring bars because they aren't tuff enough for iron blocks.

Hope this has helped. :bigsmyl2: You probably didn't want to know this much about bullet design, but I am telling you, lever actions are the hardest gun to design a bullet for. You gotta be really careful and pay attention to details. You would be surprised at the number of experienced, knowledgeable riflemen who specify bullet designs that won't chamber in their lever actions.

[405]

Yes,
You should be able to come very close to desired specs with the MM program. The Secant Ogive Bore Riding sub program should help and appears to be what the objective bullet is by design.

While working from a baseline of the throat length and bore specs in the rifle.... you can play around with the bore ride diameters (top and bottom). At the same time the front band length and its top and bottom diameters can be adjusted. By choosing the different top and bottom front band diameters you can also slightly adjust for the throat length because the band will then not be a step but will taper to the smaller top diameter. Both the bore riding diameters and the front band diameters should be spec'd to work in concert.

The blue colored headers in each category provide explanations of meanings and capabilities and will really help keep things straight with the more complex and critical specs when "fitting" a design to a specific rifle.

I've also found the shorter crimp groove option helps in refining the other specs when trying to fit to a known throat length.

All this freedom to custom design adds greatly to the satisfaction of casting and shooting cast. :)

[Naphtali]

We aren't using the same language. Uh ..... let's see :coffee: by "front band," I mean the band just above the crimp groove.

Some bullets have a distinctive "front" band.

Other bullets will have a "front" band that blends into the ogive such that you can't really tell where the front band ends and the ogive begins. Hunterns' bullet is an example of this. Maybe he can tell you if he has any issues chambering his bullet in a Marlin ?

On a very few bullets, the ogive begins just above the crimp groove, and there is no front band per se. I'm thinking the Beartooth piledriver may be in this category.I wish I had an optical comparator -- but two sets of magnifiers will have to do.

With a total magnification of 8 power, I detect no [distinct] band or bearing surface above the crimp groove. Above -- nose-ward -- of crimp groove, nose appears to be shaped as continual curve of type I cannot measure. Immediately above -- nose-ward -- of crimp groove, O.D. is between .460 and .461 inch. My micrometer cannot accurately furnish dimensions closer than .0005 inch. Have I finally furnished what you wanted?

[Pat I.]

Since all I think the pile driver is a LBT WLN why don't you just have Veral Smith cut you the mould? He could probably have it to you in a week or two.

[Crass Whackwords]

Naphtali, yes that answers my questions. Thank you for the very careful measurements and observations. The proposed design is as close as MM can come to the piledriver, but bear in mind that the MM bullet may require a longer throat than the piledriver because the MM nose will have a 0.05" long front band before the ogive begins.

Pat I, you'd have to ask Mr. Stanton to know for sure, but last time I talked to Marshall, he was buying most of his molds from Ballisticast and Applegate (who I think bowed out of the mold business), and Veral was refusing to do business with Beartooth due to a dispute over the use of the "LBT" acronym. The piledriver does not appear to be a standard LBT design, because Veral's bullets normally have a front band, similar to MM. However, I've seen a few genuine LBT's made without a front band, so it is possible.

The terms "WLN", "LFN," and other LBT acronyms have no precise meaning with regards to ogive radius or front band length. Veral has been known to tweak the nose designs to fit a particular application -- he has to, because otherwise they wouldn't chamber in some guns.

I can never remember Veral's goofy formula for determining his meplat size, but 81% seems a little big for a true LBT.

LBT could certainly set Naphtali up with a fine bullet that would function in his Marlin. So could Mountain Molds. The catch is, Naphtali doesn't want just any 425 grain bullet, he wants a replica of the Beartooth bullet, which may be a custom design made especially for Mr. Stanton by an unknown moldmaker.

[Pat I.]

On Veral's WLN and WFNs the meplat is .090 less than body diameter so would be .368 on the 45 cal. bullet or close enough to 81% not to matter. Most standard SP, LFN, WFN, and WLN LBT designs don't have a front band but are full diameter up to the start of the ogive. You can have him make you a bullet with a front band but you'd have to specify it when ordering. I don't know who made the Beartooth mould but it sure looks like an LBT and a call to Veral or Beartooth could confirm it. I have 30 cal SP, WFN, and LFN moulds but no WLN so can't compare it to the picture of the Beartooth bullet.

[helice]

You'd probably do very well by getting a throat slug to Veral Smith and let him cut you an LBT mold. He's never done me wrong.
His meplat diameters are easy to figure. On the WFN Meplat is .090 less than boolit diameter. The LFN meplat is .130 less than boolit diameter. I have 2 of his Ogival Wadcutters. Veral says their melpats are 1/32nd (.03125) less than Boolit diameter. He can build you the boolit you want. Keep writin', I'm learnin'. Helice

[Crass Whackwords]

. Most standard SP, LFN, WFN, and WLN LBT designs don't have a front band but are full diameter up to the start of the ogive..

Perhaps it is merely a matter of semantics, but I beg to disagree. That is what a front band is -- "full diameter up to the start of the ogive." A band between the crimp groove and the start of the ogive, typically about 0.100" long. The front band is not distinctive to the untrained eye, but it exists nonetheless, on most authentic LBT bullets (but not on some of the copycats), and also on most MM bullets, like the one hunterns posted.

The LBT molds that I owned most definitely employed a front band between the crimp groove and the ogive, about 0.100" long.

By contrast, the pile driver appears to have no front band between the crimp groove and the ogive. Its full diameter ogive starts immediately after the crimp groove.

But as I said before, Veral sometimes tweaks his standard designs to fit particular guns, so it is possible that he tweaked this one.

There is no 425 grainer listed in Veral's catalog, but perhaps he would make one if he is in a good mood. :mrgreen:

Last time I talked to Marshall, LBT was refusing to do business with him because of a difference of opinion over the use of the "LBT" acronym. But that was quite a while back and maybe they kissed and made up ????

It might be worth calling Marshall and asking about the source of the piledriver. The worst he could do is say "it's a custom design that belongs to me." Which may literally be true if Marshall paid for the cherry.

Anyway, I've done all I can for Naphtali, regarding his quest to copy the piledriver.

[Naphtali]

Perhaps it is merely a matter of semantics, but I beg to disagree. That is what a front band is -- "full diameter up to the start of the ogive." A band between the crimp groove and the start of the ogive, typically about 0.100" long. The front band is not distinctive to the untrained eye, but it exists nonetheless, on most authentic LBT bullets (but not on some of the copycats), and also on most MM bullets, like the one hunterns posted.

The LBT molds that I owned most definitely employed a front band between the crimp groove and the ogive, about 0.100" long.

By contrast, the pile driver appears to have no front band between the crimp groove and the ogive. Its full diameter ogive starts immediately after the crimp groove.

But as I said before, Veral sometimes tweaks his standard designs to fit particular guns, so it is possible that he tweaked this one.

There is no 425 grainer listed in Veral's catalog, but perhaps he would make one if he is in a good mood. :mrgreen:

Last time I talked to Marshall, LBT was refusing to do business with him because of a difference of opinion over the use of the "LBT" acronym. But that was quite a while back and maybe they kissed and made up ????

It might be worth calling Marshall and asking about the source of the piledriver. The worst he could do is say "it's a custom design that belongs to me." Which may literally be true if Marshall paid for the cherry.

Anyway, I've done all I can for Naphtali, regarding his quest to copy the piledriver.The MTM mold creation graphic you inserted previously is the closest MTM is capable of replicating the Piledriver (Jr)?
***
And a follow-up question about LBT. Were I to furnish several bullets, Veral would be able to create a mold that would drop replicas?
***
I have no problem having Grizzly Custom Guns in Columbia Falls, Montana, adjust feeding-chambering to accommodate the bullet, were that necessary.
***
Many thanks to all of you for your assistance.

[Crass Whackwords]

Yes, the design posted previously is as close as MM can come to the piledriver, jr. And I am concerned that it may not chamber (without trimming cases) because the MM design has a 0.05" long front band before the ogive begins, whereas the piledriver's ogive seems to begin immediately above the crimp groove.

If the piledriver was lightly kissing the rifling, then the MM design would engrave hard, and might refuse to chamber. On the other hand, if the piledriver was jumping 0.05" to the rifling, then the MM would fit perfectly.. When you have a very gradual taper on the ogive, as is the case with the piledriver or the similar MM design, it is very difficult to predict how that is going to fit in the throat.

You would have to speak to Veral (he posts over at the CBA forum), but it might depend on who made the original piledriver, jr. If it was made by Applegate, as I suspect, then Veral may balk at making an exact copy and instead steer you toward one of his standard designs.

Veral can certainly make a fine bullet for the 45/70, but it may not be exactly the same as the piledriver.

On the other hand, if Veral did make the original piledriver, jr., then perhaps he still has the template and would be willing to accomodate you.

Obviously you have had good luck with the piledriver, jr. , you probably have a pet load for it, and you would like to keep on using the same exact load without making any changes. I hate to see you modify the throat to fit a new bullet design. There are plenty of designs that will function in the Marlin without modification, they just may not be exactly the same as your piledriver.

You did not ask for my advice on how to design a bullet for the 45/70, so I did not attempt to hijack your thread and take you down that path. You said you didn't feel comfortable designing your own bullet, and I respect that. Lever actions are the hardest guns to design bullets for. If you ever hanker to design you own, I'd suggest starting with a revolver bullet, and get some design experience under your belt before tackling lever action designs.

[BABore]

There is alittle bad blood between Veral and Marshall, so it's unlikely that Veral cut the PD Jr. Marshall has been cuttin his own molds, along with a friend, for the last few years. Dan's program, and what he is willing to cut are limited. Varying driving band width and lube groove depth both come to mind. You do have to be very concerned on the front band and ogive makeup for the 45-70. Most won't work unless you know what you have. The 450 Marlin actually has a throat, so it is much more forgiving on design.

[Naphtali]

From information in this thread, I got my shooting partner interested in this class of bullet for his Grizzly Custom M1895. He preferred a few minor changes based upon his experience. He appreciated the collective work so highly that we both bought Mountain Molds two-cavity molds for this bullet.

Changes include:
Front band length: .090

Meplat 80 percent: (He was concerned about downrange instability from a too-wide nose.)

Length of base/shank: .120 (He always includes enough shank to incorporate a small additional lube groove.)

Groove angle: 55 degrees (More lubricant, less bearing band support metal.)
***
Total success!

Air dropped bullets shoot well and feed uneventfully. The next step is to attempt casting with lower antimony alloy until leading occurs. At that point, I want to try water dropping, then heat treating. The idea is to discover whether the bullet can be adjusted to expand within our velocity parameters reliably while avoiding any fragmentation or disintegration 100 percent of the test shots.

[waco]

For anyone who cares, tom at Accurate molds offers copies of the "piledriver" in a few different weights. GC or pb.

[bigboredad]

Just a idea wander of to accuratemolds.com and I believe Tom has what you are looking for

[Good Cheer]

Aint nothing walks away from the well aimed soft cast 45 rifle.

[Artful]

If it will help - I'll throw in my $0.02

If your using a Marlin this should give you an Idea of the chamber
http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/ranch_dog/ranch_dog_45-70_Govt/45-70_Govt._RD_1895_MR~Barrel-40%25.gif

Ranch Dog did design a 425 grain boolit that fits the marlin
http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC460425RF/bullet/sketch.jpg

NOE is doing the Ranch Dog designs but doesn't use tumble lube grooves and doesn't have the 425 grain listed currently, so you might want to PM/E-mail Swede and ask when they are going to run a batch again.

[Tom Myers]

I wondered how this bullet would fite in a Marlin Lever chamber so, just for giggles, I scaled out the image of the Piledriver Jr. bullet and used the Precision Bullet Design ~ Ultimate (http://www.tmtpages.com/#ultimate) software to create and superimpose images of the bullet, a 45-70 cartridge and a cutaway sketch of the Marlin 1895 MR chamber. The chamber dimensions are those of the chamber cast that was used to design the Ranch Dog TLC460-425-RF mold.



I believe the dimensions you need to recreate the Piledriver Jr. are here??

Clarifications:
The dimension .435" is measured from nose to the top of the groove.

From nose downward, first band length .120".
First band O.D. .461".

From nose downward, second band length .100".
Second band O.D. .460"

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/Naphtalitlk/Piledriver_525-grain_LFN_GC.jpg


Except for a substantial reduction in case capacity, the bullet appears to be an excellent fit to the throat- lead area of the Marlin chamber.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/BeartoothPiledriver/Naphtali_Beartooth_Pile_Driver.Jpeg.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/BeartoothPiledriver/Naphtali_Beartooth_Pile_Driver_525_gr_Sketch.Jpg


http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/BeartoothPiledriver/45-70_Govt._RD_1895~~Naphtali_Beartooth_Pile_Driver_L g.Jpg