Is there some trick to getting tumble lube molds to produce useful bullets?

[gefiltephish]

I'm new to casting and reloading. I have 3 Lee 6 cavity molds (moulds?).
9mm 356-120-TC
.45 452-200-swc
.45 TL452-200-swc

So far I've made about 2200 9mm, and last weekend about 1400 45's from the single groove molds. All from wheel weights.

All molds have been boiled and cleaned with brake cleaner etc. The 2 molds that work, have no trouble with Frankford mold release. I've tried both smoking and mold release with all of them, and I'm back to smoking with the TL mold.

I'm having such a hard time getting anything useful out of the TL mold I'm about ready to chuck it. On rare occasion I'll get 1 perfect bullet and on even more rare occasions I'll get 2. I've tried altering the heat dial on the Lee 4-20 pot from 6 - 8. About 7 seems to work just fine with the other 2 molds. I've tried running the 2 45 molds together from the same pot of lead, fill one put it down to cool while filling the other. I'll get perfect bullets from the non TL mold and crap from the TL. I've tried using varying mold temps from cool to much too hot.

Is there some EXACT temperature that must be maintained? Do I need to mix in virgin pubic hairs and chicken bones? Did I just happen to get a retarded mold?

Yesterday I finally received an infrared thermometer that's been back ordered for a few weeks. It took me all of about 5 minutes to determine that it won't work on the shiny surface of molten lead. I just tossed into the pot, a piece of very dull cast steel to take readings off of. I'll try to see if I can narrow down the temps needed. I'm running out of patience and a sledgehammer is beginning to sound appealing to vent my frustration!

[mpmarty]

Strange. I've got several six cavity Lee molds and three of them are tumble lube type and they cast the easiest of all of them. Bullets fill out easier and drop free as I open the handles. I'd repeat the cleaning of the mold in question with lacquer thinner and then a very hot water wash with dish washing detergent. Heat the mold by resting it on the edge of the pot. Very lightly touch a bit of bullet lube stick to the sprue pivot bolt and the alignment pins and holes. Do Not Get Any Lube on the faces of the blocks or in the cavities. If you get lube on the faces the vent holes fill and the mold is useless. Lube in the cavities causes wrinkles and other problems too. Good luck.

[44man]

TL boolit molds can get too hot and mess up the bands. I just slow down with them. Seems as if a little frost is not good for them.

[gefiltephish]

Strange. I've got several six cavity Lee molds and three of them are tumble lube type and they cast the easiest of all of them. Bullets fill out easier and drop free as I open the handles. I'd repeat the cleaning of the mold in question with lacquer thinner and then a very hot water wash with dish washing detergent. Heat the mold by resting it on the edge of the pot. Very lightly touch a bit of bullet lube stick to the sprue pivot bolt and the alignment pins and holes. Do Not Get Any Lube on the faces of the blocks or in the cavities. If you get lube on the faces the vent holes fill and the mold is useless. Lube in the cavities causes wrinkles and other problems too. Good luck.

Oh yeah, I did clean it with lacquer thinner before I bolied it in soapy water. Then I hit it with the brake cleaner. I found out early on that a tiny speck of lube can, and will, migrate a country mile.

[gefiltephish]

TL boolit molds can get too hot and mess up the bands. I just slow down with them. Seems as if a little frost is not good for them.

I've tried cooling on water soaked towels when necessary as per Lee's instructions.

Those with any frost don't fill out at all. The whole bullet doesn't frost, just spots, usually in the groove area. I realized this afternoon that it appears that when the bands aren't filling out, it looks like it's limited to one mold half. It may look good 180 degrees around from one seam, then from the next seam on the fill out is not so good. I'll have to check if it's consistently the same mold side that's screwed up.

What I can't understand is why sometimes they're good?! Sometimes the cavities at the extreme ends produce good bullets while the inner ones make crap, or vice versa. Makes no sense to me. The inconsistency is driving me crazy.

[Dale53]

Sometimes a new mould is just simply contrary. Yesterday, I broke in a new "Big Lube" .45 Colt (200 gr RF) Lee six cavity mould. I used a toothbrush and liquid soap. I believe that the liquid soap I used was not agressive enough (next time I'll use brake cleaner first and then Dawn Dishwashing Liquid with a toothbrush). At any rate I bet I ran fifty casts before it started working. After that it was as if I could do no wrong. They ran perfect until my pot ran dry.

Just keep after it and you'll eventually get it to work. However, using a toothbrush and scrubbing it agressively with Dawn should help. Then rinse it thoroughly with VERY hot water. Dry off, pre-heat (I use a hot plate) and GO FOR IT!

Incidentally, Bullshop's Sprue Plate lube is the best mould lube EVER!!

Good luck!
Dale53

[Rich S]

with lee molds i find that you must use their stick lube as directed for the sprue plate and pins and no other.
i have had good luck with alcohol (denatured?) from the drugstore and a brand new toothbrush then smoke the molds (i use a bic lighter for this) be sure there is no lead blocking the vent lines , theyre cut into the mold face to allow air to escape. if you find you need to clear them out be very careful or you could damage the mold, of course sledge hammering can damage a mold too.
Good luck,
Regards,
Rich

[Maven]

Is there some EXACT temperature that must be maintained? Do I need to mix in virgin pubic hairs and chicken bones? Did I just happen to get a retarded mold?

gefiltephish, Maybe a bit of schmaltz will help, but if not here are a few suggestions. (1) Try casting at 780 deg. F initially, i.e., until you get perfect CB's and/or frosted CB's, then drop the temp. to 730 - 740 deg. (2) You may need to add a bit of tin to your alloy to lower its surface tension. (3) Try scrubbing the mold again with dish detergent and an old toothbrush and then smoke it with wooden matches. (4) If nothing else works, you may need to improve the venting of the mold. While it isn't rocket science, you don't want to carve (Xacto knife) or file away (jeweler's file/Swiss needle files) too much metal. (5) It's possible that the cavities need to be lapped with a fine compound such as Pearl Drops toothpaste or a slurry of Comet cleanser and oil (ATF is good.) Good luck and let us know how you fare.

[Lead melter]

Try rubbing that puppy on a BRASS wire wheel. A steel wire wheel will eat it in no time, but the softer brass seems to polish the burrs from the mold. Has worked for me several times. Just don't get too aggressive. A few light brushes will work wonders.

[gefiltephish]

Well, after much trial and error and lots of mold prepping, I was able to get some real nice looking bullets out of the TL mold today. But, what I'm not understanding is that the base band is slightly larger than the rest of the bands. Approx. .001" difference, sometimes a bit more. The single groove mold does the same thing. Is this normal?

The TL mold seems to be really sensitive to mold temperature and quite flexible on melt temp. Measuring the sprue plate with the infrared therm., 238 - 260 degrees produces good bullets except as mentioned above. Much above 260 produces frosties. Below 238 produces nice *looking* bullets, but only about .449 - .450 at the upper bands. This is with a melt temp of about 818 degrees (#7 on the dial). However, I suspect the infrared therm reading on a piece of steel floating on the surface is not the same as the typical analog type.

[ozzy1038]

I cast mine hot and they have come out great so far. Maybe try adding some tin.

[gefiltephish]

I cast mine hot and they have come out great so far. Maybe try adding some tin.

I have tried to locate tin locally, but the pickin's are slim. Best I could find at a plumbing supply was 60 lead/40 tin solder. Other than that, I pick out the harder shiny stick-on wheel weights that I can sink the dykes into, and hope that it's actually tin. Haven't noticed any improvement. I've already overspent my casting/reloading budget, else I'd order a few pounds of Lyman #2 or similar, just to see if my material is the problem. More likely, the next time I have some cash to spare, I'll get a couple pounds of tin bars.

[gefiltephish]

Try rubbing that puppy on a BRASS wire wheel. A steel wire wheel will eat it in no time, but the softer brass seems to polish the burrs from the mold. Has worked for me several times. Just don't get too aggressive. A few light brushes will work wonders.

After smoking, I use a very soft brass wire brush by hand to remove the carbon from the mold faces. Does a nice job.

[69daytona]

I had the smae problem and cast some bullets and then drilled a hole in the center and put a screw in it and used toothpaste as a lube/abbasive and spun the bullets on low speed with a drill to polish the cavities, then boiled and cleaned with brake cleaner and now the bullets come out perfect and drop right out.
Use the sprue hole for a pilot hole for the drill.
Good luck

[Rich S]

if you are using salvaged wheel weights i have heard that the last lead based wheel weights in this country were made a couple of years ago. google Zinc wheel weights, i came up with some useful info. (ex, often zinc weights are marked ZN)

[Recluse]

1. Check out the Lee-menting thread. Invaluable information and "how-to" regarding Lee moulds.

2. Get a regular dial thermometer that will measure up to 1000F. Forget the infrared. Fun toy, but not real practical for casting. Check out the industrial surplus on-line places. I used to have a link that I ordered mine from--a heavy, heavy duty thermomenter with a nice 3" dial that I paid less than $20 for brand new.

3. I always add a bit of tin when using my TL moulds. Gives me a little better fillout. Go to a hardware store and buy the cheapest 60/40 or lead-free solder you can find. Melt about six to eight inches in your 3/4's full pot of alloy. Flux and stir, then spread some kitty litter or old corncob or something to help reduce/slow oxidation.

4. Six-cavity moulds aren't the best thing for a brand new caster to cut their teeth with. Since you already have them, try just casting in two or three of the cavities. Technique can often times determine what quality of boolit you get.

:coffee:

[Ron B.]

Hello,
Very knowledgeable bunch of Casters here; great!

You wonder about maintaining a constant temperature "in your pot?" You won't. And, it's because you are constantly removing/adding lead of course. I regulate heat with my molds; always leaving my RCBS ProMelt rheostat dialed to 850-MAX. I keep a Casting Thermometer in my pot, but only because it's a prudent thing to do. I think you are on the right track, switching molds. You don't want any of them to get too hot. On the other hand, not too cold either. When I can sense the sprue on top the sprue plate taking too long to change tone of color, I know it's time to switch molds. I'll use one mold, until I began experiencing this; then, move on to my next mold. Often, I will have as many as 4 molds working. Of course, I use a separate metal bread pan, lined with a cloth to keep each design segregated. I trust you run all your finished bullets through a sizer? I stated this elsewhere, just moments ago. I never shoot any bullet which hasn't taken a ride through my Saeco Lube/Sizer. And yes, I lube my Lee tumblers. The results work well for me.

A couple more suggestions.
The more you use any mold, the better the mold becomes.

Keep you lead well stirred, adding flux every 3 to 5 minutes. The stuff's cheap enough.
I use several brands, from a candle stick, to FrankFord's, and Brownell. The results, no matter which is always the same.

Be careful; lead's hot! :)
GRB

[Willbird]

One thing on the TL bullets is that it is more difficult to SEE poor fillout in the TC section, they are rounded on top anyway, if you size the bullets you can see a dia difference that does not appear to the naked eye. I think poor fillout is why your base band measures larger then the TL section.

[ozzy1038]

Another thing to try would be make sure the lead goes through the center of the hole on the sprue plate. I tried hitting the side at first like lee says to do so it swirls in, but that didn't work so well for me. If I make sure the stream goes through the center of the hole I get a lot better fill out, and very few rejects.

FYI - I add 4oz of 60/40 solder to 10# WW ingots.

[gefiltephish]

if you are using salvaged wheel weights i have heard that the last lead based wheel weights in this country were made a couple of years ago. google Zinc wheel weights, i came up with some useful info. (ex, often zinc weights are marked ZN)

I am aware of the zinc and steel weights and weed out what I can find before smelting. Then I watch carefully over as low a flame as will work, and scoop the few non lead weight (floaters) that I missed earlier.

[gefiltephish]

Another thing to try would be make sure the lead goes through the center of the hole on the sprue plate. I tried hitting the side at first like lee says to do so it swirls in, but that didn't work so well for me. If I make sure the stream goes through the center of the hole I get a lot better fill out, and very few rejects.

FYI - I add 4oz of 60/40 solder to 10# WW ingots.

I've tried pouring from the sides as well as straight in. As noted earlier, I've also tried 60/40.

[Recluse]

Have you tried Lee-menting the moulds?

:coffee:

[gefiltephish]

One thing on the TL bullets is that it is more difficult to SEE poor fillout in the TC section, they are rounded on top anyway, if you size the bullets you can see a dia difference that does not appear to the naked eye. I think poor fillout is why your base band measures larger then the TL section.

First, I can "see" the difference by measuring. Second, I have a Lee sizer and for the most part, only the base of the bullet gets sized. Very little if any of the upper part even touches.

[Springfield]

About a quarter of my new LEE moulds will do that. I have found the best fix is to drill out the sprue hole just a bit bigger.It can make an amazing difference. I have 17 different LEE moulds, most of which I have 2 of, and they all now work fine. I never give up on a mould.

[gefiltephish]

Have you tried Lee-menting the moulds?

:coffee:

I take it you mean lapping in the cavities. Yes and no. I did the non TL mold, once slowly by hand, and last night with a drill. I ran a few test runs and it has produced slightly larger bullets. Large enough that both top an bottom are sized by the die. Afterward, I also lapped the TL mold, but further prepping is not complete yet.

BTW, has anyone got a good method of removing the smoke carbon?

[gefiltephish]

Okay, I lapped in the TL mold and it did not seem to make any difference, although they sure do look nice. Still under size, and worse than before. In fact they pass right through the sizer, many I could simply push through with a finger. I even tried pouring in rapid succession beyond the point of obviously too hot just to see if the hot mold would produce larger bullets. Some did get a bit frosty, and the sprue plate went up to about 350 degrees. I wouldn't care so much as long as they were close (at least .451), and of uniform diameter through out the bands. I was beginning to think that maybe I'm just being too fussy, but I'm pretty sure that .449-.450 at the small end is too damn small for anybody. The other thing that is really irritating is getting some small and some that are okay out of the same pour!! Maybe I should consider taking up needle point instead?!

I'm going out now to drop a bunch of 60/40 in to see what will happen. Sheesh.

[Recluse]

Well, Phish, this is a real head-scratcher. :confused:

My problem with moulds, especially aluminum, is that they normally drop too big and I feel like I'm swaging the boolits during sizing rather than just "sizing" them.

How hot is your alloy? Are you water-dropping the boolits straight from the mould? Are ALL six cavities dropping small, or are there some inconsistencies? Have you tried concentrating on just two cavities and casting with/in those two cavities for several hundred boolits and see if you get improvement?

:coffee:

[gefiltephish]

Well, Phish, this is a real head-scratcher. :confused:

My problem with moulds, especially aluminum, is that they normally drop too big and I feel like I'm swaging the boolits during sizing rather than just "sizing" them.

How hot is your alloy? Are you water-dropping the boolits straight from the mould? Are ALL six cavities dropping small, or are there some inconsistencies? Have you tried concentrating on just two cavities and casting with/in those two cavities for several hundred boolits and see if you get improvement?

:coffee:

Last night I pulled off a 'bunch' of 60/40 and dropped into 3/4 full 20lb pot, cranked the heat dial up to 7.5 and started casting until craters formed in the sprue cut marks. The first few pours, the bullets were shiny as expected, and not necessarily well formed. Gradually they became a dull gray and formed very well. At the point where the craters appeared, they had an almost 'grainy' appearance, but still well formed. The 3 or 4 hottest pours produced the largest diameters. Still larger at the top band than the bottom. Acceptable, but the sizer just barely touches them at or near the bottom only. I was not water dropping these as it's a moot point if you're gonna size 'em.

One more thing I haven't mentioned, after sizing, the bullets appear out of round, as if the mold halves were very slightly askew. Again, maybe I'm being too fussy. Due to circumstances beyond my control, I haven't been able to shoot a single bullet yet or to even make up cartridges.

Off to Campaign for Liberty @ CPAC this morning. I'll hammer away at this again tomorrow.

[Ron B.]

Hello Gif!
After reading many of your post, surrounding your problem with your mould, I think you found yourself a bad one. The two halves must fit perfectly together to make a good bullet. I have an RCBS purchased new which does the same identical thing. When I run its bullets through my Saeco Sizer/Luber, I can really see how the two halves do not marriage properly. I called RCBS about it. Very unusual for them, they requested I send the mould back. I'm going to. I suggest you do also. You'll never be happy with the mould.

Enjoy the simple things; and, Good luck!
GRB

[TAWILDCATT]

I have had good luck?with all my lee molds.I dont care if they frost,and I do prep them.I take a fine stone to faces,then a fine file to all corners.most I have never smoked.==dont drop in water==WW are hard enuf.I have two 6cav in 45 SWC
and tl.both work fine.something else to think about,shoot some and see if they are accurate.most pistols will shoot very well with less than perfect bullets. rifle bullets are another matter.most shoot under 50 yrds so glitches dont matter much.I used to machine a groove in spru plate with a ball cutter from end cavity to
end cavity.I dont have machine to do it any more or I would on the Lees.only on machine shop in this county,where I came from they were all over.
and dont get frustrated best to sit and think.and ponder.some simply throw the tool at a wall.I would not want to be around them.loading needs calmness and care. [smilie=1: :coffeecom

[Dale53]

gefiltephish;
I generally run my bullets frosty. I get excellent fill out and end up with near perfect bullets. I do NOT run super hot, just until the bullets are dull frosty but still fine grained appearing. If you have localized frosting, the bullet will be undersize at the frost points. You want "all over" frosty.

After your sprue sets (changes color) wait six seconds before cutting the sprue. If you open sooner you take a chance at wiping melted lead over the top of the mould. Get a rhythm going - consistent bullets REQUIRE maintaining the same mould temperature for each pour. That means, as near as you possibly can, to take the same amount of time for each pour, and resting for the sprue to harden. Do NOT cast a few, lay the mould down, then come back to it and expect the bullets to be the same. Try to keep the handles closed with about the same pressure (yep, diameter will change depending upon how tight the mould is held closed).

It IS hard for a new caster to get the excellent results that an experienced caster gets. You HAVE to be patient. I will assure you, as you do it, things will rapidly improve. (If you wanted to play the piano, you wouldn't expect to be a Van Cliburn after two sessions - bullet casting is not as hard as playing the piano, but it is part art and part science and it DOES take a while to learn - probably more like learning to drive a car).

One more thing. Get one of the little cheap calculators. Figure 2% tin to improve fill out. Flat wheel weights are NOT tin - they are nearly pure lead.
I have a cheap little postal scale next to my casting pot. I weigh my tin so that I can repeat my mixture.

I weigh the lead I will put in the pot on a kitchen scale. Then using calculator, I determine how much is 2% for the tin. Then I weigh the tin on the postal scale (it only weighs to two pounds but is MUCH more accurate for the small amount of tin I use). After the lead is melted, I add the tin, stir fully (scraping the sides of the pot) and FLUX ONCE. There is no reason to flux a pot more than once at the beginning. The alloy, once mixed WILL NOT SEPARATE (Dennis Marshall, metallurgist in Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook).

Hang in there and it'll get better and better! Nest year at this time you will be bragging upon how consistent your bullets are.

Dale53

[TAWILDCATT]

try shooting some.you dont have to size,just tumble lube they could shoot fine.I shoot my 1903 with .312 tl ,i dont know if they are .312 or not but 1" group satisfys me.hay at 84 what do I care.:coffee:[smilie=1:

[gefiltephish]

try shooting some.you dont have to size,just tumble lube they could shoot fine.I shoot my 1903 with .312 tl ,i dont know if they are .312 or not but 1" group satisfys me.hay at 84 what do I care.:coffee:[smilie=1:

Can't shoot. I've been waiting 4+ months for my fid. My gun(s) are parked at the ffl. Obviously, I can' even load up cartridges. The ONLY thing I CAN do for the time being is to cast bullets. Frustratin'? You betcha!. NJ sucks. Don't let this crap happen in YOUR state. FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!!!! Vote those commies OUT!

[Lloyd Smale]

use some bullshop spruce plate lube to avoid melted lead from sticking to your spruce plate and the top of your mold and run that mold with the lead cranked up and as fast as you can. A wet rag on the bench can help you control heat when casting fast like that. Lee 6 cavity molds in my experience make there best bullets ran hot and fast.

[gefiltephish]

I don't have any bullshop yet, but I have used mold release on the sprue plate that works pretty well. Over this past weekend I had great success using very high heat, both in the pot and at the mold. This is with both 45 cal molds. A little higher than #8 on the dial and keep pouring until the mold produces cavities in the cut off point, then slow down a bit.

The only issue I seem to be having now is that the bullets are coming out much larger (.453-.454), but after going through the sizer, most are .453. However, let me qualify this a bit. Both my verniers and mic are suspect. I do not have a good standard to check with, the closest thing I have is a set of feeler gauges. The caliper is some Chinese thing I've had for 20 years or so, and never really liked or trusted. Time to throw it away. The 1" mic is very old and was made by an outfit in Rhode Island, but I don't recognize the name. Closing the mic all the way shows just a smidgeon less than .001 under. Measuring a .030 feeler gauge give the same result. At least it's consistent and I trust it more than the caliper which is inconsistent. It does not appear to have any way to calibrate it. Time for a new mic AND a standard. It's gettin' pretty hard to see all those little lines anyway. :) Do we still make any here in the U.S.?