Alloy ID?

[Marshrule]

I got a bucket of lead, some have been cast into bullets and some little containers Along with Various ingots. They test to be 17.3 BRN and have a strange crystalline type look, Maybe normal, but I’m a new caster and have never seen this… I had the mold made for Lyman number two alloy to 483 grains And they come out weighing exactly that very uniform in weight The 20 I cast last night Range 482.4-483.9. Thank you for all your help…(pot running right about 750)

[Barry54]

Welcome to the forum!

They look frosty to me. Better than wrinkles and poor fill out. Do you have more clues to what alloy you are using? Are they hard with a lot of antimony? Do they ting instead of thud when dropped on concrete?

I love the looks of them! What are they going to be loaded into?

[Marshrule]

Welcome to the forum!

They look frosty to me. Better than wrinkles and poor fill out. Do you have more clues to what alloy you are using? Are they hard with a lot of antimony? Do they ting instead of thud when dropped on concrete?

I love the looks of them! What are they going to be loaded into?

They are very smooth, i rubbed the one on the left and it smoothed on upper left side… they are definitely hard have an audible ting the hardness tested to 17.3, i am loading in a black powder equivalent 45-70 pressure should be around 17,400

[Marshrule]

One other sidenote I should add the mold was supposed to throw a .459 projectile and it also throws exactly that.

[Rickf1985]

Have you hit one with a hammer to see if it is brittle? That looks like a LOT of antimony.

[Marshrule]

I haven’t hit one with a hammer but i sure can this evening, i know one rolled off of a 32” high desk onto a hardwood floor and you couldnt tell (no dents dings or anything at all)

[Winger Ed.]

Welcomt to the forum.

Sure looks like frosting from the pot being a bit too hot to me.
I'd load & shoot 'em.

If you don't have one, I'd encourage getting a 'Lyman Cast' handbook.
It has articles in the front end that will help you alot, and it talks about frosting too.

[Marshrule]

Thanks, Winger Ed. Im not going to say that its not frosting but all my experience (very little) frosting usually had a course surface, these are glass smooth even though they dont look it in the pic. If you were to feel a bullet youd think it was a perfect casting, its just a color not a texture… all of the lead from this bucket is this way, i have air cooled and have water quenched they all look the same. If i cool my pot down any at all i get wrinkles in the bullets…

[Delkal]

You mentioned it was a bucket of lead. Does that mean its all the same alloy or just a portion of it are these hard bullets? If you are shooting a 45/70 at low pressure you do not need bullets that hard so consider cuting them with 2 parts soft lead for a BHN ~10.

I recovered some shot at a trap range and the ingots had that same course crystal structure. My guess is it was because shot doesn't have any tin in it and (maybe?) the large crystals are the Antimony. The shot was surprisingly soft but adding some tin it hardened a lot and the size of the crystals became normal.

[Marshrule]

Yes it is a bucket of lead i picked up at an auction that someone had already cast a bunch of bullets in as well as some small 1.5”x 3” containers that were about 3/8-1/2” thick all of the lead from this bucket makes bullets that look like that

[Winger Ed.]

It might be a good idea to send out a sample to one of our venders that will analyze it for ya.

If it's some super hard alloy, you could cut it with pure Lead and save a few bucks on buying other 'goodies'
to alloy with farther on down the road.

[Delkal]

If all of the lead is the same alloy that makes it much easier. A lot of times it is assorted unknown lead and you have to melt it all together to try and guess what it is. You have a very hard alloy and you can cast it as is or use them to harden softer lead.

Those are some nicely cast fully formed bullets for a newer caster. You are doing it right so cast away and have fun.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

i can't tell ya what your 17 alloy is, but i can tell ya i surely wouldn't use that hard alloy with "black powder equivalent 45-70" i would just set that alloy aside for future use when you need a hard alloy.

[Marshrule]

Thank you Delkal im new but ive been trying to do my research. JonB ive got a shiloh on the way ive been waiting for, for a couple years and i know it will take modern pressure but have really gotten into the black powder stuff as ive also got a 45-120 in a rolling block… i will definitely set this stuff aside im thinking more along the lines of a 12-14brn as the bullet does have a slight boat tail and by my research i will need a little harder alloy because of the reduction in bearing surface and i plan on trying a reverse gascheck behind the bullet as that gives me the best results from the 45-120.

[Barry54]

Do you have any soft lead you can mix with your existing stash and try casting again after it’s diluted?

[Marshrule]

Yes currently in the process, if i can get it to a 13, ill stop there… i have some 1” thick bricks from an old hospital xray room that is as soft as it gets.

[Marshrule]

So update i was able to turn down the heat and get a smooth bullet however all the grooves were rounded and weight varied much more the first one on the left is the right bullet in the first picture, the middle is an in between and the third was poured at 700 degrees and was the 10th or 11th set with the warmed up mould… the first is most consistent …326189

[Delkal]

I like to cast hot too. You will see books recommending to cast at 100 degrees from when the lead melts but I get the best results at over 700 no matter what alloy I use. I wouldn't expect to get rounded edges at 700 though so I suspect your alloy needs some tin but if you can get good bullets at a higher temp as is go for it.

Like others have also mentioned I think you can cut this alloy with a good bit of lead and if you are using it for hunting add a few percent of tin or pewter. But that comes later. You have good bullets so go shoot them.

And start looking for more lead. It doesn't take many 500 grain bullets to drain a pot. :(

[kevin c]

So if you don’t like the look that comes with higher alloy temp but don’t get the fill out you want at lower temps, maybe a bit more tin is in order at those lower temps?

[Barry54]

I’d like to see photos of the contents of the bucket of “lead” you got. I bet it’s rich with antimony and was someone’s stash for enriching soft lead before you got it.

And I really really like the look of those boolets! Custom mold from?
When you get a softer alloy worked out, I’d like to buy a sample handful for function testing one of these days...

[Marshrule]

I’d like to see photos of the contents of the bucket of “lead” you got. I bet it’s rich with antimony and was someone’s stash for enriching soft lead before you got it.

And I really really like the look of those boolets! Custom mold from?
When you get a softer alloy worked out, I’d like to buy a sample handful for function testing one of these days...
I wont be home until monday some time and ill take a picture, i ordered my mold from accurate molds, very happy with the results.

[Shanghai Jack]

It might be a good idea to send out a sample to one of our venders that will analyze it for ya.

If it's some super hard alloy, you could cut it with pure Lead and save a few bucks on buying other 'goodies'
to alloy with farther on down the road.

So which vendors do this testing?

[Dusty Bannister]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?410426-XRF-Gripe

[Marshrule]

Ok, so i did a burn test with a small propane torch and it looks like there is a good bit of antimony in my alloy as it splashes a white/green flame off of the top

[Rickf1985]

Never heard of a "burn test" on lead? White to me would be Phosphorous or magnesium and green would be copper. I would think it would melt so fast you would not get any kind of read. And remember that lead over 1100-1200 degrees is puts out toxic fumes.

[Marshrule]

Never heard of a "burn test" on lead? White to me would be Phosphorous or magnesium and green would be copper. I would think it would melt so fast you would not get any kind of read. And remember that lead over 1100-1200 degrees is puts out toxic fumes.

I just used the torch and went off the “flame test” results on line and it looked exactly like the antimony burn… hear is a picture of the canisters that are in this bucket.

[Marshrule]

326289

[kevin c]

Size and appearance wise, I’d say it’s a radioisotope container. All the ones I’ve gotten and analyzed that weren’t pure lead (and those were uncommon) were around 3% Sb with little or no tin.

If you cast from the containers only, I’d guess you got high alloy temp frosting from the antimony (my own 3% sb alloy will do that) and, at lower pot temp, poor fill out from the lack of tin. The hardness would be about Brinell 10 or 11.

If you used the harder ingots, I’d guess that alloy to be higher Sb and even more prone to frosting, and again low tin content. I’ll qualify that with the observation that hardness testing was described to me by a maker of hardness testers as being inconsistent due to the variable cooling rate dependent on the mass and shape of the ingot, compared to that of bullets, so that the alloy could be the same.

1-2% Sn added to either should cast with good fill out at lower pot temps if you don’t want the frosting.

[Dusty Bannister]

As Kevin mentions, the cooling rate does affect the hardness of an ingot. I was given a good number of 5 pound ingots with the comment that the person was not sure what the alloy was in the ingots. I used the Cabin Tree tester and found I had three general hardness test results. I melted a sample from the three different groups, sent it off to BNE and found that they were all the same alloy.

That is why, sample prep is very important when using the hardness test units. Perhaps that is why some suggest taking more than one test on the same ingot to average the readings. The large and small ingots have a different cooling rate. That is sufficient reason to use one bullet mold to cast sample bullets for testing.

[dtknowles]

As Kevin mentions, the cooling rate does affect the hardness of an ingot. I was given a good number of 5 pound ingots with the comment that the person was not sure what the alloy was in the ingots. I used the Cabin Tree tester and found I had three general hardness test results. I melted a sample from the three different groups, sent it off to BNE and found that they were all the same alloy.

That is why, sample prep is very important when using the hardness test units. Perhaps that is why some suggest taking more than one test on the same ingot to average the readings. The large and small ingots have a different cooling rate. That is sufficient reason to use one bullet mold to cast sample bullets for testing.

I don't find testing hardness of ingots is a reliable method to predict the hardness of bullets cast from those ingots. Close but not dead on. Maybe close enough. I test bullets for hardness not ingots. When I am going to cast ingots that will be used straight, I cast a few bullets at the same time and test the bullets and mark the ingots with the hardness of the bullets.

Tim

[Marshrule]

Kevin, thank you so much that is spot on with what im seeing the only way i can get them to cast decent at lower temps is to flux and scoop off the top layer …

[Delkal]

Do you have a picture of the dross? Is it thick and gravely even after fluxing at 700 degrees? It could be calcium contamination.

Years ago I was melting some isotope containers and everything was going smoothly till I added one and got a thick dross on top that did not want to flux back in so like you I scooped it off. Looking back I am now thinking one container was calcium contaminated which mixes with antimony and forms an insoluble intermettalic compound. This can be skimmed off but the dross is toxic and gives off poisonous gasses when exposed to moisture. Do any smelting outside and as soon as the dross is cool put it into an airtight container. Not sure how to dispose of it.

Are all of the "ingots" solid or is that a pic of a hollow cylindrical isotope containers?

[jsizemore]

You might look here for your containers:

http://www.fellingfamily.net/isolead/

Medium cylinder from your outside dimensions. Maybe check the weight to refine your search.

[Marshrule]

Do you have a picture of the dross? Is it thick and gravely even after fluxing at 700 degrees? It could be calcium contamination.

Years ago I was melting some isotope containers and everything was going smoothly till I added one and got a thick dross on top that did not want to flux back in so like you I scooped it off. Looking back I am now thinking one container was calcium contaminated which mixes with antimony and forms an insoluble intermettalic compound. This can be skimmed off but the dross is toxic and gives off poisonous gasses when exposed to moisture. Do any smelting outside and as soon as the dross is cool put it into an airtight container. Not sure how to dispose of it.

Are all of the "ingots" solid or is that a pic of a hollow cylindrical isotope containers?

Yes, thick and gravelly is exactly how i would describe it i dont have any pictures of it though as I’ve melted them all down into ingots… the ingots are almost have a satin silvery color as opposed to a regular lead metalic color, that pic was one of the last containers

[Marshrule]

You might look here for your containers:

http://www.fellingfamily.net/isolead/

Medium cylinder from your outside dimensions. Maybe check the weight to refine your search.

Absolutely the “bevel” container

[Delkal]

Yes, thick and gravelly is exactly how i would describe it i dont have any pictures of it though as I’ve melted them all down into ingots… the ingots are almost have a satin silvery color as opposed to a regular lead metalic color, that pic was one of the last containers

The dross was the calcium / antimony intermetallic. IIRC correctly once it was removed the lead behaved normally when remelted but it will be a little softer since you also removed some antimony. Melting radioisotope vials can be like playing roulette. I had a nice pot of lead behaving normally then when I added one vial I got all of the crud on top. Not sure how to tell the bad containers from the good ones.

I didn't know the dross could give off poisonous gasses when this happened to me but I smelt outside and didn't notice anything.

[Dusty Bannister]

Unless you actually had the dross scanned, I would be hesitant to say it was contaminated with calcium. The site referenced to help ID isotope generators did not mention calcium being used. While you might be correct, an XRF scan would be the only certain way to confirm your opinion.

Keep in mind that an alloy rich in antimony may not go fully into solution at only 700 degrees. Still, being safe in handling the dross is very important.

[Delkal]

I am just speculating on the calcium but whatever happened gave a thick dross when the one "contaminated" vial was added and fluxing didn't help. I believe if an alloy just has calcium it casts OK and this is what is used in batteries. Calcium is only a problem when it mixes with the antimony in just about all of our alloys.

When this happened to me I was a casting newbie and didn't understand what happened. Later I bought the Lyman cast bullet handbook where what happened was explained and had a warning of the hazards. They even had a picture of a calcium contaminated pot showing the distinctive dross.

[Dusty Bannister]

I do not doubt your observations, just have to wonder why when the major material is either pure lead, or perhaps lead-tin-antimony one would suddenly find a container made with a calcium alloy. I can understand a problem with the epoxy paint on the exterior, and the construction adhesive used to keep the plastic liner in place being a problem. I do understand the various sources listed in Lyman CBH 3rd ed, but these containers have been around for a very long time and would have likely been mentioned as a possible source if it was true. Perhaps someone else has had a similar issue, but so far, none have come forward.